Arguments of A High School Atheist

[highschoolkid]

I guess I 'll start out being on the forum/writing this post by saying hello and giving some background info. My name is Joseph and I’m 14 years old. I’m Catholic and went to a Catholic school from k-8th. I graduated and am currently going to a public high school. I’ve adjusted well and am doing great. I’ve been interested in apologetics since 7th grade when I had some big questions about my faith, life as a Catholic, and various questions about the universe and the world we live in. I’m posting this to confirm that my arguments are in line with Catholic teaching.

With that being said I’d like to to share the arguments of an atheist student at my high school. He started bashing Christianity and Catholicism and belief in God. This came out of no where in my PE class when someone said “Ob my God.” Wasn’t a religious sentence but then the atheist student said “God isn’t real.” Another student said God is real and the believer and atheist went back and forth childishly like that. He went on to say that theists have no evidence of God and that he [the atheist student] has proof God doesn’t exist. His arguments were very ignorant of Christianity in general. I just listened to him give his “proof” to some of the kids in my PE class. I didn’t say anything because I didn’t want to get into an argument with him because I know that he would just ignore me based on the way he acts and that I don’t know him.

1. His first argument was that God is not real because we do not have pictures of Him and we don’t know what God looks like.

My response to this would be we don’t know what God looks like because He exists out of space and time. Also, I don’t think God would really look like a physical object. But we know He is there by the way he acts upon our universe, us, and everything he created. We obviously can’t take pictures of Him because he isn’t really a physical object.

1. His second “proof” was that God and Jesus do not exist because no one is living who has seen them.

My objection to this would be no one who is living has seen God but people can see how He interacts with us and everything created. No one living has seen Jesus because he died 2,000 years ago. But some of the original Christians saw and interacted with Jesus personally, face to face. Because of this, people’s experience with God and faith Christianity has carried on for so many generations up until now and hopefully a very very long way into the future.

1. His next statement was “Only religious people go to heaven or hell and those who are lost or atheists go to a limbo/void/empty place.” And “The bible says that. I’m not even Christian and I’ve read the bible and using your own book against you.”

My response to this would be you either go to heaven, hell, or purgatory. There is no special/dark/empty/void place for atheists or “lost” people. I would say you either go to heaven or hell in the end based on your actions on earth not matter what your beliefs are. Also, I would like him to state where in the bible he read these things. I’m posative that not one verse in the bible says that atheists spiritually lost people go to a void.

1. His last main statement was about evolution. To sum it up he told one of the Christian kids that evolution dismisses faith in God.

I would say he is completely wrong about this. From what I’ve read, evolution is very much compatible with Christianity and Catholicism as long as you acknowledge that God is the prime mover/creator and that we acknowledge that God interacts with us and we each have souls. I know that if whether you think evolution is true or not it doesn’t effect Christianity. IMO the bible is not a science book but a theology book and guideline to our faith. Genesis tells us that God created everyhing including us not how. My opinion is that God is the creator and his mechanism of the development of the universe, life, and us is evolution.

1. Just to add he told one of the Christian kids that he wants to make him an atheist by the time they graduate.

I don’t really have anything to say about that as it’s not my problem or life.

To finish my first post up I’d like to hear your opinions on my counter arguments to his “proof” for God not existing. To add, I’m not a super religious person but I do think that my Catholic faith is an important thing to know and think about and will help set a pathway and morals for my future. Thank you for your time, Joseph

 

[Pugsly]

I guess I 'll start out being on the forum/writing this post by saying hello and giving some background info. My name is Joseph and I’m 14 years old. I’m Catholic and went to a Catholic school from k-8th. I graduated and am currently going to a public high school. I’ve adjusted well and am doing great. I’ve been interested in apologetics since 7th grade when I had some big questions about my faith, life as a Catholic, and various questions about the universe and the world we live in. I’m posting this to confirm that my arguments are in line with Catholic teaching.

With that being said I’d like to to share the arguments of an atheist student at my high school. He started bashing Christianity and Catholicism and belief in God. This came out of no where in my PE class when someone said “Ob my God.” Wasn’t a religious sentence but then the atheist student said “God isn’t real.” Another student said God is real and the believer and atheist went back and forth childishly like that. He went on to say that theists have no evidence of God and that he [the atheist student] has proof God doesn’t exist. His arguments were very ignorant of Christianity in general. I just listened to him give his “proof” to some of the kids in my PE class. I didn’t say anything because I didn’t want to get into an argument with him because I know that he would just ignore me based on the way he acts and that I don’t know him.

1. His first argument was that God is not real because we do not have pictures of Him and we don’t know what God looks like.

My response to this would be we don’t know what God looks like because He exists out of space and time. Also, I don’t think God would really look like a physical object. But we know He is there by the way he acts upon our universe, us, and everything he created. We obviously can’t take pictures of Him because he isn’t really a physical object.

1. His second “proof” was that God and Jesus do not exist because no one is living who has seen them.

My objection to this would be no one who is living has seen God but people can see how He interacts with us and everything created. No one living has seen Jesus because he died 2,000 years ago. But some of the original Christians saw and interacted with Jesus personally, face to face. Because of this, people’s experience with God and faith Christianity has carried on for so many generations up until now and hopefully a very very long way into the future.

1. His next statement was “Only religious people go to heaven or hell and those who are lost or atheists go to a limbo/void/empty place.” And “The bible says that. I’m not even Christian and I’ve read the bible and using your own book against you.”

My response to this would be you either go to heaven, hell, or purgatory. There is no special/dark/empty/void place for atheists or “lost” people. I would say you either go to heaven or hell in the end based on your actions on earth not matter what your beliefs are.

1. His last main statement was about evolution. To sum it up he told one of the Christian kids that evolution dismisses faith in God.

I would say he is completely wrong about this. From what I’ve read, evolution is very much compatible with Christianity and Catholicism as long as you acknowledge that God is the prime mover/creator and that we acknowledge that God interacts with us and we each have souls. God is the creator and his mechanism of the development of the universe, life, and us is evolution.

To finish my first post up I’d like to hear your opinions on my counter arguments to his “proof” for God not existing. Thank you for your time, Joseph

Welcome to the CAF Joseph!

Your head is very clear for a young man in 2013 American culture. As to point 2…Does he think Abraham Lincoln didn’t exist because no one can verify it for him as a personal experience?..Yet thousands of believers can personally verify Jesus is alive today on many a website.

Overall…I like you mind and your answers…Welcome again.

 

[fred_conty]

Here are some simple/short answers.

1. God is a pure spirit.
2. We have reasonable historical documents from writers that he did exist.
   Noone really debates this question any longer. It is an accepted fact.
3. “… Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.” (CCC #846)
   Catechism of the Catholic Church.

There is a lot in that statement, but noone is condeming those who do not know Jesus and his Church thru no fault of there own.

1. Evoloution of man is acceptable if one believes that a lifeform at some point had a soul infused into the body by God making that lifeform a man.

I like your spirit.

 

[Armor_of_Light]

The other night, I had the most vivid dream. All about a delicious chicken dinner…complete with all the sides. Warm, soft roll…melted butter, home-made gravy…YUM! I woke up drooling over that chicken dinner. Guess what? I can’t prove to you that I had that dream, and you can’t prove I didn’t. You may be able to show in some lab that I was dreaming, and my drool may point to the fact that I was dreaming…but there is no proof.

Atheists put a lot of faith in something that can’t be proven. Think about it.

Good luck my young friend!

 

[Timothy_Garber]

I smell a natural apologist…

 

[dshix]

To the OP:

I don’t have time to give an answer, and I know others will answer you copiously, so I will just say this:

I wish I could sit in a room for thirty minutes with this person that you are speaking of to debate him. He would exit the room dazed, dazed I tell you!

Those are some of the weakest arguments I’ve ever heard…

 

[Timothy_Garber]

The other night, I had the most vivid dream. All about a delicious chicken dinner…complete with all the sides. Warm, soft roll…melted butter, home-made gravy…YUM! I woke up drooling over that chicken dinner. Guess what? I can’t prove to you that I had that dream, and you can’t prove I didn’t. You may be able to show in some lab that I was dreaming, and my drool may point to the fact that I was dreaming…but there is no proof.

Atheists put a lot of faith in something that can’t be proven. Think about it.

Good luck my young friend!

Wonderful point! And they tell US that we are blindly believing in something.

 

[Robertanthony]

He claims to be an atheist (in my observation, another term for “angry with God”) yet he believes in an afterlife (Hell, Heaven, limbo etc.). That’s a grave incoherence for starters .

 

[Robertanthony]

The other night, I had the most vivid dream. All about a delicious chicken dinner…complete with all the sides. Warm, soft roll…melted butter, home-made gravy…YUM! I woke up drooling over that chicken dinner. Guess what? I can’t prove to you that I had that dream, and you can’t prove I didn’t. You may be able to show in some lab that I was dreaming, and my drool may point to the fact that I was dreaming…but there is no proof.

Atheists put a lot of faith in something that can’t be proven. Think about it.

Good luck my young friend!

Any chance you might post the recipe to this yummy meal?

 

[ccmnxc]

I guess I 'll start out being on the forum/writing this post by saying hello and giving some background info. My name is Joseph and I’m 14 years old. I’m Catholic and went to a Catholic school from k-8th. I graduated and am currently going to a public high school. I’ve adjusted well and am doing great. I’ve been interested in apologetics since 7th grade when I had some big questions about my faith, life as a Catholic, and various questions about the universe and the world we live in. I’m posting this to confirm that my arguments are in line with Catholic teaching.

First off, I’m impressed and would like to congratulate you on your witness to the faith. This is coming from a high school student who shares similar interests to you.

With that being said I’d like to to share the arguments of an atheist student at my high school. He started bashing Christianity and Catholicism and belief in God. This came out of no where in my PE class when someone said “Ob my God.” Wasn’t a religious sentence but then the atheist student said “God isn’t real.” Another student said God is real and the believer and atheist went back and forth childishly like that. He went on to say that theists have no evidence of God and that he [the atheist student] has proof God doesn’t exist. His arguments were very ignorant of Christianity in general. I just listened to him give his “proof” to some of the kids in my PE class. I didn’t say anything because I didn’t want to get into an argument with him because I know that he would just ignore me based on the way he acts and that I don’t know him.

This is very reflective of the New Atheism that has popped up in the recent decade or two. They tend to be boisterous, loud, often ignorant, etc. (Note, this is not reflecting upon all atheists but more upon the New Atheism movement popularized by Dawkins and the like). It is something that will simply have to be adjusted to, since it is mostly what you will find in high school and society as a whole.

1. His first argument was that God is not real because we do not have pictures of Him and we don’t know what God looks like.

My response to this would be we don’t know what God looks like because He exists out of space and time. Also, I don’t think God would really look like a physical object. But we know He is there by the way he acts upon our universe, us, and everything he created. We obviously can’t take pictures of Him because he isn’t really a physical object.

I’d say your explanation sheds light on his assertion quite well. It also might do to point out that we might as well do away with ancient history since we have no pictures of people and had no idea what we looked like. I’m thinking that idea would be absurd to mos people, however.

1. His second “proof” was that God and Jesus do not exist because no one is living who has seen them.

My objection to this would be no one who is living has seen God but people can see how He interacts with us and everything created. No one living has seen Jesus because he died 2,000 years ago. But some of the original Christians saw and interacted with Jesus personally, face to face. Because of this, people’s experience with God and faith Christianity has carried on for so many generations up until now and hopefully a very very long way into the future.

Again, you make valid points. The absurdity of this logic taken to its conclusion is that the vast, vast majority of the billions of people who have existed throughout history and are even alive today do not exist because we cannot see them. It is patently ridiculous and demonstrably false.

1. His next statement was “Only religious people go to heaven or hell and those who are lost or atheists go to a limbo/void/empty place.” And “The bible says that. I’m not even Christian and I’ve read the bible and using your own book against you.”

My response to this would be you either go to heaven, hell, or purgatory. There is no special/dark/empty/void place for atheists or “lost” people. I would say you either go to heaven or hell in the end based on your actions on earth not matter what your beliefs are. Also, I would like him to state where in the bible he read these things. I’m posative that not one verse in the bible says that atheists spiritually lost people go to a void.

Burden of proof’s on him. I’m skeptical he can meet it.

1. His last main statement was about evolution. To sum it up he told one of the Christian kids that evolution dismisses faith in God.

I would say he is completely wrong about this. From what I’ve read, evolution is very much compatible with Christianity and Catholicism as long as you acknowledge that God is the prime mover/creator and that we acknowledge that God interacts with us and we each have souls. I know that if whether you think evolution is true or not it doesn’t effect Christianity. IMO the bible is not a science book but a theology book and guideline to our faith. Genesis tells us that God created everyhing including us not how. My opinion is that God is the creator and his mechanism of the development of the universe, life, and us is evolution

I love when people bring up evolution. Not only do I subscribe to it, but I also see it as evidence for God. The step that would have had to happen in the development of the human genome are so unlikely to have happened that odds dictate the sun would have ceased to be a main-line star, would have expanded, and would have subsequently fried the earth. Seems like a divine hand was guiding it to me. If I ever reject evolution, it will be on scientific grounds.

Anyways, good luck in high school, and keep the faith.

 

[Mike_SoCal]

High School Physics:

The Law of conservation of matter states: matter cannot be created or destroyed. Yet it exists.
The Law of conservation of energy states: energy cannot be created or destroyed. Yet it exists.
The Law of entropy states that the universe is headed to a state of disorder. Yet life is ordered and exists.
Outside the created universe is only void as far as the best telescopes can see.

There is no creation without a creator. There is no science that can prove that statement wrong.

 

[ccmnxc]

A version of the contingency argument, I built off a different one. Maybe your “friend” would like to refute it.
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[Armor_of_Light]

Any chance you might post the recipe to this yummy meal?

What meal? You can’t prove anything about a meal…

Now, go away!..or I will taunt you a second time!
Please tell me you get this reference…

 

[Schatzl]

You will face this sort of thing throughout your life. I am 15 ad have had my fair share of arguments on things like this. some of them got rather…heated ( ) Just remember,you know more about your faith than he ever will. Use this to your advantage. I have my own little “proofs” (well, miracles really)

For example, If there isn’t a God, explain all of the apparitions of Our Lady at Lourdes, Fatima, and Guadeloupe.

Explain how Padre Pio woke up one morning with type AB blood pouring out the Stigmata. Explain how these wounds never stopped bleeding.

Tell him the story about how at a church in Poland, someone accidentally dropped the Eucharist. When the priest went to purify it, he found this red stuff growing on it. The priest had the substance looked at under a microscope. It was human cardiac muscle.

An atheist’s disbelief feeds off of the phrase, “but there isn’t any proof” “There isn’t any scientific evidence.”

If he refuses to believe in God, we cant change him. All we can do is pray for him to see God someday. I commend you on standing up for your faith in God.

 

[empther]

I’ll address the first point.

1. His first argument was that God is not real because we do not have pictures of Him and we don’t know what God looks like.

We don’t have pictures of atoms because they’re so small not even electron microscopes can pick them out. Yet we know they exist because there is plenty of scientific evidence.

The entire universe is evidence for God’s existence.

We see that everything in the universe changes. But something that changes cannot have existed through an infinite past. Every change happened a finite time ago. No change could have happened an infinite time ago.

Therefore, the universe began.

But the universe could not have started itself.

Therefore, something other than the universe had to start it and this we call God.

God is unchanging. He is always the same. This means he is not subject to time. He is outside of time. He is eternal.

 

[Maria1993]

I guess he believes in spontanious generation then.
Living coming from non living…makes sense. (sarcasm)

Even the law of bio genesis says living things come from living things.

 

[TimothyIgnatius]

High School Physics:

The Law of conservation of matter states: matter cannot be created or destroyed. Yet it exists.
The Law of conservation of energy states: energy cannot be created or destroyed. Yet it exists.
The Law of entropy states that the universe is headed to a state of disorder. Yet life is ordered and exists.
Outside the created universe is only void as far as the best telescopes can see.

There is no creation without a creator. There is no science that can prove that statement wrong.

I’d be weary of using this argument; an atheist could ignore the point made and say something along the lines of “well then who created God?”

For atheists of the ilk described by the original poster, I don’t think arguing helps much. Keeping in mind that he’s a 14 year old kid, it seems he’s less the rational, reasonable, science minded atheist and more of the rebellious, arrogant kid who thinks stomping around on other people’s beliefs is somehow challenging “the man.”

Another strategy you can take, instead of refuting his points (which you did admirably, Joseph), is asking him why he is so adamant to destroy someone else’s belief. Explain to him what God means to you, how your faith has enhanced your life. Mention that while you can’t prove God’s existence, he cannot prove that He does not exist (his arguments stating so were plainly ludicrous). Ask him why he finds it necessary to debunk your beliefs, especially if nobody is trying to debunk his? Nobody finds fault with him being an atheist, why does he find fault in the faithful? Ask him if the way to handle someone you disagree with is to viciously attack the beliefs they hold dearest to them, and if that is the manner in which he’d like to be treated.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

1. His next statement was “Only religious people go to heaven or hell and those who are lost or atheists go to a limbo/void/empty place.” And “The bible says that. I’m not even Christian and I’ve read the bible and using your own book against you.”

My response to this would be you either go to heaven, hell, or purgatory. There is no special/dark/empty/void place for atheists or “lost” people. I would say you either go to heaven or hell in the end based on your actions on earth not matter what your beliefs are. Also, I would like him to state where in the bible he read these things. I’m posative that not one verse in the bible says that atheists spiritually lost people go to a void.

Having been fully engrossed in atheistic communities, I have to say, this is bizarre. Almost all atheists do not believe in heaven, hell, limbo, purgatory or any such place. Maybe you could ask him why he believes in these places but not God. For curiosity, if for nothing else.

Robertanthony:

He claims to be an atheist (in my observation, another term for “angry with God”)

Oh for Pete’s sake. Atheists don’t have a god belief. If they don’t have a god belief, how can they be angry at God?

 

[ccmnxc]

I’d be weary of using this argument; an atheist could ignore the point made and say something along the lines of “well then who created God?”

When someone asks that question, I always feel like facepalming. God by definition is a necessary (never created/eternal) being. Anyone who asks the question is simply asking a loaded question that ignores the definition of the Christian God. It is easily rejected.

Just a heads up, so there is less confusion, threads on atheism are banned, so if the thread becomes closed that is the reason why. Joseph, if you still have questions, or need clarification, feel free to PM me or others on this thread.

 

[Robertanthony]

Oh for Pete’s sake. Atheists don’t have a god belief. If they don’t have a god belief, how can they be angry at God?

I said “in my observation”. Write it off as anecdotal evidence if you will. If it’s convenient for me, I might try to pretend and convince myself there is no elephant in the room when I know full well there is one. Then I will argue that the trumpeting I’m hearing is really the noise of the truck engine parked in the street down below. No doubt, real, genuine a-theists must exist somewhere. Not that it’s a badge of honour or anything. Though I must say I have nothing but respect for atheists of good faith who aren’t hateful, full-of-venom, and one-track-minded zealots.