Arizona nuns blast Vatican, Catholic teaching [CC]

[trish2009]

I realize that Bishops were never intended to support the nuns once they retired but the decline in new sisters has put a terrible burden on the older nuns in their retirement years. Since the Bishops have squandered millions of dollars and live like princes I feel the Bishops should, out of brotherly (or sisterly) love help the retired nuns financially. The once a year collection for retired nuns is hardly enough to keep them in food, much less a roof over their heads and medical expenses.

Getting angry with the Vatican is useless since the help should come from the Bishops Dioceses.

I feel these nuns have a deeper grievance against the Church and if this is so perhaps they should leave it and become protestants, since they don’t seem to agree with the teachings of the Catholic Church. It always amazes me that people, not just nuns,do not believe in the teachings of the Catholic Church but continue to stay in it.

 

[Brendan]

Since the Bishops have squandered millions of dollars and live like princes

Huh?

Which bishops are you talking about?? I’ve been to the rectory where Cardinal Maida lived. It’s a regular house in a run down section of Detroit. It’s one redeeming value is that it is next to the Cathedral. Yes, it was nicely painted, generally maintained, and the lawn was mowed, which was more than you could say for most of the rest of the houses on the block.

Though unlike the other houses on the block, +Maida didn’t even have the luxury of a even the small urban backyard the others have. That is taken up by the maintenence shed for the Cathedral.

When he was Archbishop of Detroit, he drove a '99 Ford Taurus.

Not exactly princely living.

Bishop Flores, our recently auxilliary bishop and now newly appointed Bishop of Brownsville, TX, lives in a room at the seminary, not that much differently than the seminarians themselves. Think college dorm room and you pretty much have it.

At the time Cardinal Ratzinger was elected Pope, he was living in a one bedroom apartment and drove a 9 year old Fiat.

 

[JReducation]

A totally dispicable “document”, unworthy of any Christain to compose…
Unforgivable to be asked to sign…
“When you opt to become a religious you sign a document in which you accept that you are worthless in the sight of God and the Church.”
Christ said, God treasures every human being,and loves all his “children”.
In God’s sight NO ONE is “worthless”…
2)
Charity to the lowliest of their brethren is one of the most important things Christ asked of his followers.
“What you do/give unto the lowliest you do/give unto me” Have we forgoten?..
Or are “sisters” excluded?
3)
We are also told by Christ to “care for the widows and the elderly”,I’m sure He did not exclude the “sisters”.
The very least a person can ask for, after serving the Church for most of their lives (without “payment”), is to be certain of the minimum requirements when they reach
“retirement” age,and a fitting funeral when they die.

This smacks a lot like Serfdom in it’s most vile sense,which,BTW has been long since
abolished.
And yes I do object to Priests, who through their disgusting and criminal behaviour,have damaged the Church,not only finacially,being sent to “homes” with full Medicare,and pensions.
They should be treated as “normal” employees (which you say they are),- SACKED and striped of their “benefits”.
Double standards here IMHO. Unworthy of the “followers of Christ”.

There is nothing dispicable with something that is done out of love, as an act of faith that your life is in God’s hands and as an anticipation of life in the Kingdom of God where all men shall be cared for by God. I have no problems with it. It is very liberating to have nothing, to want nothing and to exepct nothing but the cross. The consecrated life is not for everyone. No one forces anyone to become a consecrated religious. You respond to a call. This was the way of our holy founders.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Zoe_Brain]

The consecrated life is not for everyone. No one forces anyone to become a consecrated religious. You respond to a call. This was the way of our holy founders.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

As I said, I can recognise someone better than me when I see them - and I have a very high opinion of myself, as is obvious. I could not do what you do, Brother JR.

May you have whatever blessings that are in my feeble power to beseech for you.

Zoe

 

[babyjesus]

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[unafraid]

I find it interesting that so many preface their responses by taking the low road of first digging a claw into the sex abuse scandal crisis. Such an easy way to wound. In fact , when viewed in toto, all of the topics on this forum are wrapped in the dark shroud of corruption, blasphemy and heresy, and yet…sprinkled amidst this cocophony are the blessed sacrifices offered up by new martyrs. A million voices sreaming at once, saying everything and meaning nothing, but just a drop of sanctified blood, martyrs blood, and the soul of the world is justified. I think I’ll cling to the core of my faith, which is forever pure…and I shall pray. What these nuns do or say, and how the matter proceeds, is but another distraction from Christ. The truth is Him…All else is more noise.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I realize that Bishops were never intended to support the nuns once they retired but the decline in new sisters has put a terrible burden on the older nuns in their retirement years. The once a year collection for retired nuns is hardly enough to keep them in food, much less a roof over their heads and medical expenses.

I’m not persuaded this is entirely true, if it’s true at all. Some orders of nuns have massive assets. Some have even converted their order’s assets into private foundations with themselves as the executives of it.

I’m not saying they all do, but some most definitely do.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Women religious contacted by the Arizona Daily Star for an article on the current apostolic visitation used the opportunity to criticize the Vatican and express their dissent from Catholic teaching.

“We are closing schools and churches and they are asking the diocese to spend money on this type of thing?” said Sister Lil Mattingly, a Maryknoll Missioner. “We try very hard to review our own lives and how Jesus is calling us to live, but I’d like to call on Rome to work on that.”

Franciscan Sister Elizabeth Ohmann added, “Are we going contrary to Rome’s teachings? I say, ‘Yes, it is contrary to Rome’s teachings.’ But it is not contrary to my own conscience.”

More…

Hmmm what about the vow of obedience? Someone along the chain isn’t following it, if they aren’t obeying the Vatican!

 

[JReducation]

Women religious contacted by the Arizona Daily Star for an article on the current apostolic visitation used the opportunity to criticize the Vatican and express their dissent from Catholic teaching.

“We are closing schools and churches and they are asking the diocese to spend money on this type of thing?” said Sister Lil Mattingly, a Maryknoll Missioner. “We try very hard to review our own lives and how Jesus is calling us to live, but I’d like to call on Rome to work on that.”

Franciscan Sister Elizabeth Ohmann added, “Are we going contrary to Rome’s teachings? I say, ‘Yes, it is contrary to Rome’s teachings.’ But it is not contrary to my own conscience.”

More…

I’m afraid that Sister missed an important chapter in the rule of St. Francis and Clare. “The brothers [sisters] shall obey the Lord Pope, the bishops, Br. Francis and all of his canonically elected successors.”

In the Rule of St. Francis, the only tme that one is exempt from obeying is when one is asked to commit a sin.

In the rule Francis writes:

If, however, a superior command anything to a subject that is against his soul it is permissible for him to disobey, but he must not leave him [the superior], and if in consequence he suffer persecution from some, he should love them the more for God’s sake. For he who would rather suffer persecution than wish to be separated from his brethren, truly abides in perfect obedience because he lays down his life for his brothers. 1 For there are many religious who, under pretext of seeing better things than those which their superiors command, look back 2 and return to the vomit of their own will 3. These are homicides and by their bad example cause the loss of many souls.

No matter how sinful your superior may be or what sin your superior may ask you to commit, you may not separate yourself from the superior. Your salvation depends on unity. You may refuse to commit the sin, but you may not put distance between you and the superior, even if others ciritcize you for it. Nor may you look at other things that you consider better than what your superiors command.

A Franciscan is a worthless servant. We are reminded of this by the rule of our holy Father which we promised to obey and practice until death. The same rule commands us to obedience to our superiors.

That man leaves all he possesses and loses his body and his soul who abandons himself wholly to obedience in the hands of his superior, and whatever he does and says—provided he himself knows that what he does is good and not contrary to his [the superior’s] will—is true obedience. And if at times a subject sees things which would be better or more useful to his soul than those which the superior commands him, let him sacrifice his will to God, let him strive to fulfil the work enjoined by the superior. This is true and charitable obedience which is pleasing to God and to one’s neighbor.

The rule is very clear. The good Sister has promised to obey it and live accordingly unitl death.

He who is truly poor in spirit, hates himself and loves those who strike him on the cheek

You can’t hate yourself while placing your judgment and your estimation of yourself above those who are superior to you. It’s like being dead or alive. You’re either or. You either hate yourself or you have a superabundance of self-esteem that you place your conscience over the mind and authority of those whom you promised to obey. The question is, whom did you promise to obey?

The Franciscan profession of vows is very clear:

“I vow and promise to obey Our Holy Father Francis, the Holy Rule, the Lord Pope and his canonically elected successors and to obey my brothers in the order, until death, at the expense of my immortal salvation.”

I don’t get this logic. I lost here.

The documents quoted above can be found on the Franciscan Brothers of Life site in the link section under writings of St. Francis. Link is below.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[kimmielittle]

I’m not persuaded this is entirely true, if it’s true at all. Some orders of nuns have massive assets. Some have even converted their order’s assets into private foundations with themselves as the executives of it.

I’m not saying they all do, but some most definitely do.

Yeppers

 

[kimmielittle]

A totally dispicable “document”, unworthy of any Christain to compose…
Unforgivable to be asked to sign…
“When you opt to become a religious you sign a document in which you accept that you are worthless in the sight of God and the Church.”
Christ said, God treasures every human being,and loves all his “children”.
In God’s sight NO ONE is “worthless”…
2)
Charity to the lowliest of their brethren is one of the most important things Christ asked of his followers.
“What you do/give unto the lowliest you do/give unto me” Have we forgoten?..
Or are “sisters” excluded?
3)
We are also told by Christ to “care for the widows and the elderly”,I’m sure He did not exclude the “sisters”.
The very least a person can ask for, after serving the Church for most of their lives (without “payment”), is to be certain of the minimum requirements when they reach
“retirement” age,and a fitting funeral when they die.

This smacks a lot like Serfdom in it’s most vile sense,which,BTW has been long since
abolished.
And yes I do object to Priests, who through their disgusting and criminal behaviour,have damaged the Church,not only finacially,being sent to “homes” with full Medicare,and pensions.
They should be treated as “normal” employees (which you say they are),- SACKED and striped of their “benefits”.
Double standards here IMHO. Unworthy of the “followers of Christ”.

IMHO I disagree

Are you saying the Good Sisters didn’t read?
Are you saying the Good Sisters didn’t understand what they read?
Are you saying the Good Sisters didn’t have time to deliberate their life of a Religious choices?

Do you understand the steps of Religious before Final Vows?

Sister Mary taught me these things below.
You are a Catholic by desire.
You are a Religions by desire.
You join a particular Religious Order by desire.

As always, just my thoughts

 

[JReducation]

Let’s sort through this. There is a lot of language that is being thrown around here interchangeably. It confuses the issue.

1. A nun and a sister are not the same thing.
2. Nuns may only own the monastery in which they live. They own it as a corporate body. However, the local bishop is the superior. Therefore, he has a canonical right to the property, if the community dies out. It automatically transfers to the diocese. They may not dispose of it without his permission.
3. Sisters may own as many properties as they want. The constitution of their congregation decides how they live the vow of poverty.
4. Porperties owned by sisters do not revert to the bishop or belong to the laity either. They belong to the congregation. Therefore, sisters are allowed to write the deads to those properties in any way that they want. They may use and dispose of their common property any way that they want to do so without the interference of either the laity or the local bishop.
5. Sisters make a simple vow of poverty. A nun makes a solemn vow of poverty.
6. For sisters, the congregation may pay the social security tax for them so that they can get retirement benefits. The congregation can also set up retirement plans for the sisters.
7. Nuns belong to religious orders, not to congregations. Religious orders do not have social security or retirement plans. They make solemn vows of poverty. Therefore, they may not have security of any kind.
8. Since sisters make a simple vow of poverty, they can inherit money from their families, parents, etc. Each congregation decides how this money is to be managed. This is an internal decision. The Church does not involve itself in this process. Some congregations, such as the Missionaries of Charity do not allow their sisters to accept such inheritances, even for the congregation. Therefore, it must be given away to some beneficiary outside of the congregation. Other congregations allow the money to be accepted, but it is deposited in the community treasury.
9. Since nuns make a solemn vow of poverty, they may never inherit money. Before they make solemn vows, they sign a legal document in which the nun names a beneficiary. That person inherits any assets that would normally come to the nun. The nun does not see it. This is a civil document enforceable in court.
10. Some one may choose to bequeath money to a group of sisters of nuns. That’s a different situation. It is being given to the community, not an individual within the community.

In conclusion:

Sisters: make a simple vow of poverty; can own property; can dispose of their property; can inherit assets; can have social security and retirement plans, the how is determined by their constitutions.

Nuns: make a solemn vow of poverty; cannot own property; cannot dispose of property used by them; cannot inherit assets; cannot have social security or retirement plans

In either case, sisters and nuns are exempt religious. Just like exempt religious men, none of us are the financial responsibility of the local bishop. Those of us who perform duties for the diocese receive a stipend from the diocese, but not a salary. We are not on the payroll. Therefore, we do not have fringe benefits. That is contrary to the doctrine of religious life.

Diocesan priests are on the payroll. They are not religious. They are secular men. Therefore, they receive all of the fringe benefits that every diocesan employee receives. If a diocesan priest leaves the diocese, for whatever reason, his benefits go with him, just as your social security and 401K go with you when you leave your job. This is his money, that he has earned as an employee of either a diocese, parish or other diocesan institution.

We religious, do not have these benefits. We forfeit them when we make vows. By making vows, we become excardinated from all dioceses, even the diocese in which we were baptized. Since we no longer belong to any Church, except the universal Church, we have no right to any of its assets or benefits. This is part of the vow of poverty.

These points are explained during your postulancy. So that when you enter the novitiate, you know what you’re giving up. No one forces you to go to the next step, which is the novitiate when you become, de facto, a religious, even though you’re not yet in vows. Also, during postulancy, you study the difference between simple and solemn vows. You know the implications and the seriousness of the vows. When you enter the novitiate, you begin to live according to the vows, even though you have not yet made religious profession. It is an opportunity for you to live the vow of poverty (simple or solemn) before making a life-time commitment. Between the time that you enter postulancy and the point that you make final vows (simple or solemn) there is a stretch of at least six years. There are no surprises. Anyone who claims surprises is being less than honest.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[kimmielittle]

Let’s sort through this. There is a lot of language that is being thrown around here interchangeably. It confuses the issue.

1. A nun and a sister are not the same thing.
2. Nuns may only own the monastery in which they live. They own it as a corporate body. However, the local bishop is the superior. Therefore, he has a canonical right to the property, if the community dies out. It automatically transfers to the diocese. They may not dispose of it without his permission.
3. Sisters may own as many properties as they want. The constitution of their congregation decides how they live the vow of poverty.
4. Porperties owned by sisters do not revert to the bishop or belong to the laity either. They belong to the congregation. Therefore, sisters are allowed to write the deads to those properties in any way that they want. They may use and dispose of their common property any way that they want to do so without the interference of either the laity or the local bishop.
5. Sisters make a simple vow of poverty. A nun makes a solemn vow of poverty.
6. For sisters, the congregation may pay the social security tax for them so that they can get retirement benefits. The congregation can also set up retirement plans for the sisters.
7. Nuns belong to religious orders, not to congregations. Religious orders do not have social security or retirement plans. They make solemn vows of poverty. Therefore, they may not have security of any kind.
8. Since sisters make a simple vow of poverty, they can inherit money from their families, parents, etc. Each congregation decides how this money is to be managed. This is an internal decision. The Church does not involve itself in this process. Some congregations, such as the Missionaries of Charity do not allow their sisters to accept such inheritances, even for the congregation. Therefore, it must be given away to some beneficiary outside of the congregation. Other congregations allow the money to be accepted, but it is deposited in the community treasury.
9. Since nuns make a solemn vow of poverty, they may never inherit money. Before they make solemn vows, they sign a legal document in which the nun names a beneficiary. That person inherits any assets that would normally come to the nun. The nun does not see it. This is a civil document enforceable in court.
10. Some one may choose to bequeath money to a group of sisters of nuns. That’s a different situation. It is being given to the community, not an individual within the community.

In conclusion:

Sisters: make a simple vow of poverty; can own property; can dispose of their property; can inherit assets; can have social security and retirement plans, the how is determined by their constitutions.

Nuns: make a solemn vow of poverty; cannot own property; cannot dispose of property used by them; cannot inherit assets; cannot have social security or retirement plans

In either case, sisters and nuns are exempt religious. Just like exempt religious men, none of us are the financial responsibility of the local bishop. Those of us who perform duties for the diocese receive a stipend from the diocese, but not a salary. We are not on the payroll. Therefore, we do not have fringe benefits. That is contrary to the doctrine of religious life.

Diocesan priests are on the payroll. They are not religious. They are secular men. Therefore, they receive all of the fringe benefits that every diocesan employee receives. If a diocesan priest leaves the diocese, for whatever reason, his benefits go with him, just as your social security and 401K go with you when you leave your job. This is his money, that he has earned as an employee of either a diocese, parish or other diocesan institution.

We religious, do not have these benefits. We forfeit them when we make vows. By making vows, we become excardinated from all dioceses, even the diocese in which we were baptized. Since we no longer belong to any Church, except the universal Church, we have no right to any of its assets or benefits. This is part of the vow of poverty.

These points are explained during your postulancy. So that when you enter the novitiate, you know what you’re giving up. No one forces you to go to the next step, which is the novitiate when you become, de facto, a religious, even though you’re not yet in vows. Also, during postulancy, you study the difference between simple and solemn vows. You know the implications and the seriousness of the vows. When you enter the novitiate, you begin to live according to the vows, even though you have not yet made religious profession. It is an opportunity for you to live the vow of poverty (simple or solemn) before making a life-time commitment. Between the time that you enter postulancy and the point that you make final vows (simple or solemn) there is a stretch of at least six years. There are no surprises. Anyone who claims surprises is being less than honest.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Hiyas Brother JR

Thank you. I should have said Nuns in this:
Are you saying the Good Sisters didn’t read?
Are you saying the Good Sisters didn’t understand what they read?
Are you saying the Good Sisters didn’t have time to deliberate their life of a Religious choices?

PS I LOVE this siteBrothers of Life (Francis of Assisi)

Check it out franciscansoflife.org/index.html

forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/quote.gif​

 

[Corki]

They should be treated as “normal” employees (which you say they are),- SACKED and striped of their “benefits”.

By “normal” employees, are you talking about people like you and I working in the secular world? I hate to break it to you, but a “sacked” employee is never stripped of his/her retirement benefits. Not the ones he/she has contributed to or any other ones he/she has earned through length of service. That’s the law. Even if a “normal” person is convicted of a crime (which most of these priests were not) and is sitting in jail, he/she is still legally collecting pension or defined contribution benefits.

 

[JReducation]

A totally dispicable “document”, unworthy of any Christain to compose…
Unforgivable to be asked to sign…

".

I did this very joyfully and so do my religious brothers and sisters. No one makes us sign it. We want to do so, because as Kimmie said that the good sister taught her, we chose this way of life. In my case, we I had ten years of formation to think about this great step. There is nothing beneath us in this. Our own founder, St. Francis, used these same words to refer to himself and to his sons. We are nothing. We have no worth. We are Minors.

Our rule is very clear on this and we are bound by obedience, under penalty of hell, to believe and observe the following:

** And all we, brothers minor, useless servants, humbly entreat and beseech all those within the holy Catholic and Apostolic Church wishing to serve God, and all ecclesiastical Orders, priests, deacons, subdeacons, acolytes, exorcists, lectors, door-keepers, and all clerics; all religious men and women, all boys and children, poor and needy, kings and princes, laborers, husbandmen, servants and masters, all virgins, continent, and married people, laics, men and women, all infants, youths, young men and old, healthy and sick, all small and great, and all peoples, clans, tribes, and tongues, all nations and all men in all the earth, who are and shall be,

His mercy alone will save us; who has done and does all good to us, miserable and wretched, vile, unclean, ungrateful, and evil.

Let us therefore desire nothing else, wish for nothing else, and let nothing please and delight us except our Creator and Redeemer, and Savior, the only true God, (Rule of St. Francis, chap 23) **

The rule of St. Francis, as was revealed by Jesus himself, is very clear. We are nothing. We are useless. We beg every member of the Church and the Mystical Body to allow us to serve them. In other words, we grovel before God and the Church for the privilege to live the religious life among men.

The rule directs us to acknowledge that we are wretched, vile, unclean, ungrateful and evil. We are called to intense penance and sacrifice. We acknowledge that we are not without hope, because God is creator, redeemer and savior. It is not an attitude of hopelessness. Just the opposite. It is an attitude of sublime recognition of our insignificance compared to the splendor of Christ and our brothers and sisters in this world. We recognize that we have been called to this way of life, because without it, we cannot be saved. God in his great mercy and the Church united to God’s mercy, blesses us with this way of life for which we are grateful. Everyday becomes a day of praise to God and the Church for the mercy that we have received.

Every day, we decrease so that Christ may increase. As we decrease, Christ’s Life shows itself more clearly through our littleness.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

By “normal” employees, are you talking about people like you and I working in the secular world? I hate to break it to you, but a “sacked” employee is never stripped of his/her retirement benefits. Not the ones he/she has contributed to or any other ones he/she has earned through length of service. That’s the law. Even if a “normal” person is convicted of a crime (which most of these priests were not) and is sitting in jail, he/she is still legally collecting pension or defined contribution benefits.

Corki is right. In any job, your 401K, retirement plan, social security and whatever other benefits you paid into are yours. They go with you, even to jail.

This is not for you Corki.

But I can’t understand for the life of me, what is it so difficult about the fact that a diocesan priest is a secular man. As a secular man, his financial rights are the same as any other secular employee of the diocese, parish or diocesan organization. DIOCESAN PRIESTS DO NOT MAKE VOWS. Only religious men and women make vows.

Therefore, diocesan deacons, priests and bishops have salaries and benefits like any other secular man. Let’s not confuse diocesan clergy with religious men or religious women. We are not the same nor have the same rights.

Back to Corki, even if they commit a crime, diocesan priests have benefits into which they have paid and it is unconstitutional to take it away from them.

Let us study the difference between diocesan clergy, religious sisters, nuns, mendicants, monks, friars, clerks, canons, orders, congregations, societies and institutes. The civil and canonical rules are very different for each. So is the status and obligations.

Fraternally,

 

[theinquisitive]

IMHO I disagree

Are you saying the Good Sisters didn’t read?
Are you saying the Good Sisters didn’t understand what they read?
Are you saying the Good Sisters didn’t have time to deliberate their life of a Religious choices?

Do you understand the steps of Religious before Final Vows?

Sister Mary taught me these things below.
You are a Catholic by desire.
You are a Religions by desire.
You join a particular Religious Order by desire.

As always, just my thoughts

I am saying what I am saying…
Are YOU saying that I am “stupid”? I hope not.

Many have the “desire” to join a Religious Order,to be a Catholic,to serve Christ by joining a particular Order…
So…
Perhaps while doing so they were placing their trust in the tradition of the first Decipels, who, acording to the letters of St.Paul,St.Peter (and others),the “Brethren” were told to care for the needy,they also probably remember that the comunity of the faithfull (including the Apostles) catered for the bodily needs of those who gave up all worldly goods to follow in Christ’s footsteps,while working for the good of their comunities.
Are you saying this was not so?
Are you saying that it is NOT the first Christian duty to follow such examples?
Are you saying that it is quite ligitimate to leave those poor Sisters,Brethren to a life of semi starvation?
Just because they signed a “contract”?
Now,runing the risk of being attackt for bringing up the unspeakable, I ask you,in all honesty, is it in the interest of the Catholic Church,to be seen to be financing the comfortable retirement,of countless priests who,have not only shamed themselves,but also the C.Church,to whom they also owe obedience,bound by the “contract” which they signed,including the pledge to live the life of celibacy? (needless to say they also caused unforgivable pain to so many)
While at the same time denying the basic needs of the “Good Sisters”?

Are you saying,that they (those priests)could not read?
That they did not understand what they signed?
That they had not time enough to deliberate their life of a Religious/priest?
Sorry,to me it still smacks of “double/conflicting morals”.

 

[theinquisitive]

By “normal” employees, are you talking about people like you and I working in the secular world? I hate to break it to you, but a “sacked” employee is never stripped of his/her retirement benefits. Not the ones he/she has contributed to or any other ones he/she has earned through length of service. That’s the law. Even if a “normal” person is convicted of a crime (which most of these priests were not) and is sitting in jail, he/she is still legally collecting pension or defined contribution benefits.

Corki,
I apologise for not stating my comment correctly (english is not my “mother tounge”)
I ment in my opinion,he should be stripped of his/her retirement benefits…
That this be possible is not the point I was stressing. (only wishfull thinking)
BTW. there are also the Company Pensions, which of course can be with held in cases of criminal acts (among others) which harm the company…

 

[theinquisitive]

Originally Posted by theinquisitive
A totally dispicable “document”, unworthy of any Christain to compose…
Unforgivable to be asked to sign…
JReducation,
please re-read the above.
I do not imply that anyone was “made” to sign!

“I did this very joyfully and so do my religious brothers and sisters. No one makes us sign it. We want to do so, because as Kimmie said that the good sister taught her, we chose this way of life. In my case, we I had ten years of formation to think about this great step. There is nothing beneath us in this. Our own founder, St. Francis, used these same words to refer to himself and to his sons. We are nothing. We have no worth. We are Minors.”

My comment is that it is un-Christian to leave the “Good Sisters”,who ever they may be,without the very basic necessities,after a life spent in the service of Christ.
It is not given to everyone to realise the extent of their commitment at the time of “signature”,very many are extremely young,in good health,old age seems very far off.
It is quite unreasonable to expect every one to acknowledge (fully)that fact.
I recognise your commitment and it seems to be (at the moment) that you are happy in your vocation. (is being happy alowed ) I wish you well,which does not mean that I agree. = “We are nothing. We have no worth”.

 

[kimmielittle]

I am saying what I am saying…
Are YOU saying that I am “stupid”? I hope not.

Many have the “desire” to join a Religious Order,to be a Catholic,to serve Christ by joining a particular Order…
So…
Perhaps while doing so they were placing their trust in the tradition of the first Decipels, who, acording to the letters of St.Paul,St.Peter (and others),the “Brethren” were told to care for the needy,they also probably remember that the comunity of the faithfull (including the Apostles) catered for the bodily needs of those who gave up all worldly goods to follow in Christ’s footsteps,while working for the good of their comunities.
Are you saying this was not so?
Are you saying that it is NOT the first Christian duty to follow such examples?
Are you saying that it is quite ligitimate to leave those poor Sisters,Brethren to a life of semi starvation?
Just because they signed a “contract”?
Now,runing the risk of being attackt for bringing up the unspeakable, I ask you,in all honesty, is it in the interest of the Catholic Church,to be seen to be financing the comfortable retirement,of countless priests who,have not only shamed themselves,but also the C.Church,to whom they also owe obedience,bound by the “contract” which they signed,including the pledge to live the life of celibacy? (needless to say they also caused unforgivable pain to so many)
While at the same time denying the basic needs of the “Good Sisters”?

Are you saying,that they (those priests)could not read?
That they did not understand what they signed?
That they had not time enough to deliberate their life of a Religious/priest?
Sorry,to me it still smacks of “double/conflicting morals”.

Hiyas

Do I think you’re stupid? No, but i wonder why people think when someone disagrees with them…they need to bring up intelligence. Either I’m unintelligent…OR I’m calling them unintelligent. I’m simply in disagreement on this one point.

To bring Priests into this discussion, IMHO is talking apples and oranges.

**Are you saying that it is quite ligitimate to leave those poor Sisters,Brethren to a life of semi starvation? **

Are you saying that when Nuns retire…Their solemn vow of poverty…no longer is valid?

As always, just my thoughts