Arkansas Mom Prepares for Birth of 17th Child

[Brenda_V]

Okay, I am really confused here. I know that the Duggars are thrilled with each subsequent baby and rightly so but I don’t remember them having their own church or anything like that.

Now there was another large family featured on one of those channels (TLC or ???) who had one girl and enough boys to have their own baseball team that played other teams. The show was mostly about the big game they did for the town. I can not find them anywhere on the internet but I do remember them having their own church and holding their services in their home and over the internet. The two oldest boys had outside jobs as court reporters like dad but still lived at home. The third oldest boy thought it was “weird” that his brothers didn’t even have girlfriends yet . Anyone else remember this family and their name? They seemed far more isolationists than the Duggars (I will admit that tv can edit things in such a way as to make everything seem worse than it really is).

Oh, and some of what I am hearing in this thread sounds more like this family than the Duggars.

Brenda V.

 

[PattyPryor]

I don’t believe I said anything mean at all. I even said the homeschooling thing was fine and I understood that logistically it was probably the easiest thing.

I can only judge by what I saw on the tv show. If they don’t want to be judged by others, than they shouldn’t put themselves on tv, and they TLC can only edit what the Duggars gave them.

The three oldest may have outside jobs, but that doesn’t mean the oldest kids still living in the house aren’t completely isolated.

when the discovery health channel filmes the duggars it is for about 3 days at a time so really if you think anyone can get a complete life in 3 days done more power to you. even the Duggars say the show is HIGHLY edited

Those children go outside, have friends and are CHILDREN. I know this for a fact. Most of them can’t be found when there is no school that day because they are playing outside, goin fishin playing with friends.

Trust me Michelle WANTS everyone of her children. If you read there website you would know that Michelle and Jim Bob were on birth control the first few years of thier marriage and then had Joshua they went back on birth control because they wanted to control how many children they had. They didn’t realize that by taking birth control you can also kill an unborn baby thats growing in the body and she lost her baby. They then decided they would onor the lord and have as many ‘blessings’ has he saw fit. She shgortly there after had twins.

I suggest if you feel they are being in any way shape or form being miss treated to please call thier number listed on the site. Ask as many questions as you want they don’t mind.

 

[fcbv]

Wow! This couple is courageous!

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

that some good faithful Catholics have run too fast in the opposite direction. We have to be discerning God’s will in all of this. We can’t just pop out baby after baby without a care in the world. The question is, what does God want us to do?
Since I’m pretty danged sure I can’t get a baby without God’s cooperation, I think He wants me to have my children!

I would think such a person would be on the watch and would jump at any opportunity to criticize them.
Yes. Well. That’s apparent by your posts.

unless you very clearly have a calling from God to go closer to the extreme.
I don’t have an extreme life at all. Just because it’s not a life you would be open to, doesn’t make me extreme.

If we really respected life as much as we should, we would give having a new baby much more thought----not anxious, worried thought, mind you, but serious prayerful thought, always trusting in the Lord. I do think that far too many people think that the way to defeat abortion is to constantly pop out baby after baby and act as if it’s nothing.

Oh good grief. What nonsense. I don’t give abortion a single thought and don’t know any large family that does when it comes to having their children. Serious thought? Yeah, like birthing, feeding, educating, and caring for each of these children takes no thought at all. Every moment of most large families is filled with serious thoughts towards caring for the lives they have been blessed with. If anything “popping out” (a description I’ve yet to experience) a baby every 3 or 4 years takes LESS thought.

I don’t believe I said anything mean at all.
Which says a lot.

I can only judge by what I saw on the tv show. If they don’t want to be judged by others, than they shouldn’t put themselves on tv,
Agreed. However, christian charity and the benefit of the doubt would be nice. Heavens knows tv is not the most accurate medium for information or portrayals.

The three oldest may have outside jobs, but that doesn’t mean the oldest kids still living in the house aren’t completely isolated.
**Um. Yes, actually it does. **

Spacing is not unimportant.
Yes, it is. Just because you wouldn’t, doesn’t make it important. It’s just your opinion.
I would love to have a family of 12 kids, each spaced about 3-4 years apart.
Prime example. We don’t try to space our children, but would never purposely want them more than 2 years apart - tops. We’re thrilled all of ours are spaced close together. Of course, as we (I) age, they will naturally come further apart and we’re perfectly okay with that too.

Nope, they’ve definetly stated that the land is for the sons and their wives. I recall being completely repelled by the statement.
**hmm. I guess it depends how they would view a son-i-l. For us, they would be “sons” too and they’d (sil and dd) would get a parcel. I wouldn’t particuliarly encourage any of my children to move out until marriage. Wouldn’t stop them, but wouldn’t encourage it. Honestly, don’t know that I’d care if they lived here once married either. Unless they were lazy moochers of course. Kind considerate adults woudl always be welcome though. **
I was almost as disgusted with that as I was about handing off the infant to an older daughter to raise.
This I admit is the one area I HATE. I see nothing wrong with older siblings taking on responsibility and helping with the family, but they are NOT a spare set of parents.

It actively appears that kids specifically the older ones are VERY isolated, and stuck. They don’t have outside jobs because they have to care for the little ones. They are all homeschooled* They don’t even eat in a healthful manner. EVERYTHING is canned or frozen
**Okay, this section and the one below is just petty. Substitute private/public schooled for homeschool and you have your average american teen and that doesn’t make them isolated or stuck. Lots of people give their kids “matching” names for crying out loud. **
They ate tator tot casserole several nights a week ** etc It doesn’t even seem like the parents really know the kids as individuals. To me it’s just like the whole giving them all matchy matchy names.

 

[stadre]

Thank you for some of these responses. As a Catholic who uses NFP to deal with our infertility, I am shocked that there are people on this board who would suggest that it is irresponsible to allow God to plan their families. That is what we are called to do as Catholics!! Using NFP to avoid pregnancy is a prescription for times when there is a grave reason to do so. May God continue to bless all of the families who receive life as His greatest blessing and those who have not yet been blessed as abundantly.

 

[OldAgeGuru]

Point out to where I have stated anything mean, cruel or rude. I don’t believe I have at all ANYWHERE on this thread.

As far as treating their son in laws as son’s that’s all well and good, but… they said on the show this is for our son’s and their wives. Not Our sons be they biological or by marriage. It was misleading, and if they do open their homes to their daughters families then fine. (still for me personally… blech)

As for not encouraging your kids to move out, well, that’s a personal choice. I certainly wouldn’t be shoving my kids out the door at age 18, but I wouldn’t tell them that they couldn’t. Actually, that’s not true. I would encourage my kids to go to college and live in a dorm for at least a year. I don’t care if they are going to the local state school that’s 20 minutes away. GO LIVE IN A DORM. Experience it. If you hate it move home, but try it.

Speaking as someone who is most likely going to be a daughter in law in the next year or so, I think it’s great in theory that you wouldn’t necessarily care if they moved out once married, but I can tell you that I would be less than thrilled as the daughter in law to be living at my mother in laws house (if for no other reason then when my parents come for dinner I can serve them a bowl of M&M’s and FINALLY get to say "My house My rules! ) I think there comes a point where all parties involved have to say, I’m leaving my parents and going to my spouse, and they become the most important part of my life and in order to that apron strings must be cut from all sides. I personally also think that it’s fine line between encouraging them to remain at home through college and some of their 20’s before marriage to get on their feet financially and save some money and emotionally hamstringing someone because you have done everything for them for so long. (you wouldn’t believe the mama’s boys i’ve dated who’s mothers fed ex them meals to heat in the microwave and who still do their laundry… Thanks, but if he thinks I’m going to replace mama for all that stuff than it’s not gonna last long)

I also stated that I think it’s important for older children to be involved in the caring for younger kids (babysitting, changing diapers feeding occasionally doing a load of laundry taking a sibling to the park once in a while), but it is not their job nor responsibility to be in charging of the actual raising of the children. On this much I think we can agree

My concern with the homeschooling (which I said was something I understood logistically) is that these kids only seem to know each other and not have many outside friends. It just seems to me, that a lack of exposure (and perhaps they do associate with other children in their church or homeschool group, or even neighborhood, but this wasn’t shown), is isolating, they never get to see how anyone else lives. And they don’t even have to be shown the negatives of how other people live. Private or public school kids aren’t isolated because they do get to actively engage with other children their own age that don’t share the same last name. I went to both Catholic and public school, and I got to see plenty of how other families work.

I agree my matchy names thing is petty. But it’s possibly just burn out from my friends who are all getting married or having kids and hearing " Do you think the name Madison goes with the name Kendra or if it’s a boy how about the name Samson?" For me it’s like the kids are not a pair of socks, who cares if one is Madison and the other is named Amerigo Vespucci, they are totally different people with different purposes on the planet and they won’t be together forever!

 

[RCCDefender]

Thank you for some of these responses. As a Catholic who uses NFP to deal with our infertility, I am shocked that there are people on this board who would suggest that it is irresponsible to allow God to plan their families. That is what we are called to do as Catholics!! Using NFP to avoid pregnancy is a prescription for times when there is a grave reason to do so. May God continue to bless all of the families who receive life as His greatest blessing and those who have not yet been blessed as abundantly.

Yes thank you! I adore the Duggars. Watching their family gave me the courage to risk having a second child after “all-knowing” doctors told me not to think about conceiving and if I did to get genetic counselling to discuss “terminating” the pregnancy:bigyikes:. Thanks to the Duggars I now have a beautiful second daughter and would love to have more (God still has to work on DH)! Their children seem happy and look healthy. They are not on welfare or in debt and even if TLC and the Discovery channel hadn’t come along I’m sure they would still have been able to build that house and get along just fine. Maybe they wouldn’t have furnishings that were as fine, but they don’t strike me as the kind of people that would be upset with fewer things.

The Duggars get way too much flack, in my humble opinion.

 

[SeekerJen]

My only concern about the matchy-matchy names is that when Mom gets to be an age where her memory gets a bit fuzzy, it might be difficult. When my grandmother was alive and wanted to get a particular kid’s attention, she would sometimes run through the list of her kids’ names in order by age until she got to the right one. Eg: for the youngest, it would be “Shirley-Joanie-Bonnie-DeeDee-Ricky-Susie-Bradley! Brad, come over here.” (Actually, it usually got shortened to “Shirl-Jo-Bon-Dee-Ricky-Sue-Brad”, but you get the picture.) If all the names started with the same letter AND there were 17+ of them, good grief! (I also feel sorry for poor Jinger, I’m betting she’s going to get very tired of explaining how to spell and pronounce her name. The other kids’ names are at least pretty standard.)

As for not seeing the kids socializing with their friends: can you imagine the liability involved on the part of the TV channel? I’m sure they didn’t want to bother with having all the friends’ parents sign waivers, etc. so they kept the show to Duggar children only. Makes sense to me.

That said, I have encountered families where the kids were homeschooled and so isolated that they were only allowed to go to church, to work, and to parentally-approved youth group. They were the exception rather than the rule, however. It doesn’t appear that the Duggars are this way.

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

Point out to where I have stated anything mean, cruel or rude. I don’t believe I have at all ANYWHERE on this thread.
My dear, you’ve been insulting pretty much from beginning to end, albet without intention.

As for not encouraging your kids to move out, well, that’s a personal choice.

Yes, it is. And with all due respect, you don’t know anything about what you will or won’t do until you have your own.

Speaking as someone who is most likely going to be a daughter in law in the next year or so, I think it’s great in theory that you wouldn’t necessarily care if they moved out once married, but I can tell you that I would be less than thrilled as the daughter in law to be living at my mother in laws house
then it’s probalby safe to say, your d-mil wouldn’t be too thrilled to have you living with her either.

---

I think there comes a point where all parties involved have to say, I’m leaving my parents and going to my spouse, and they become the most important part of my life and in order to that apron strings must be cut from all sides.
Nonsense again. And it flies completely contrary to how families lived for most of humanities history and in many cultures today. It has nothing to do with apron strings or with the wife not being important. Actually, it’s a sign of a full grown genuine man of self worth to provide for his entire family and place his wife by his side while he does it. Obviously, I wouldn’t want to live with a lazy moocher - married or not. I don’t do my oldest sons’ laundry now and I don’t expect to start anytime soon. They know where the washer is and are smart enough to figure it out.

---

I agree my matchy names thing is petty. they are totally different people with different purposes on the planet and they won’t be together forever!
No, but they will be forever connected, God willing, long after their parents are dead.

My only concern about the matchy-matchy names is that when Mom gets to be an age where her memory gets a bit fuzzy, it might be difficult. When my grandmother was alive and wanted to get a particular kid’s attention, she would sometimes run through the list of her kids’ names in order by age until she got to the right one. Eg: for the youngest, it would be “Shirley-Joanie-Bonnie-DeeDee-Ricky-Susie-Bradley! Brad, come over here.” (Actually, it usually got shortened to “Shirl-Jo-Bon-Dee-Ricky-Sue-Brad”, but you get the picture.)

**I hate to tell you this, but that had nothing to do with granny’s age! LOL Every parent I know has done this to some degree, regardless of how many kids they have. I know a fellow who said he and his sister used to answer to “Emory” because mom would start out yelling his sister’s name “Emily” and end up yelling his name “Gregory”. My poor dh is an only and his mother used to mix his name up with the dog’s. I was the youngest by 10 years (only basicly) and my parents would mix my name up with the older siblings and grandchildren. It has nothing to do with old age or the number of children. Unfortunatly. **

 

[wifenmommy]

Okay, I am really confused here. I know that the Duggars are thrilled with each subsequent baby and rightly so but I don’t remember them having their own church or anything like that.

Now there was another large family featured on one of those channels (TLC or ???) who had one girl and enough boys to have their own baseball team that played other teams. The show was mostly about the big game they did for the town. I can not find them anywhere on the internet but I do remember them having their own church and holding their services in their home and over the internet. The two oldest boys had outside jobs as court reporters like dad but still lived at home. The third oldest boy thought it was “weird” that his brothers didn’t even have girlfriends yet . Anyone else remember this family and their name? They seemed far more isolationists than the Duggars (I will admit that tv can edit things in such a way as to make everything seem worse than it really is).

Oh, and some of what I am hearing in this thread sounds more like this family than the Duggars.

Brenda V.

Oh yeah~ I think the show was called “kids by the dozen” or something to that effect. I dont think it is weird persay about the boys not haviong girlfriends yet, I think one of the boys stated it pretty well by saying he was saving his heart for his true soul mate and did not want any "baggage"from previous relationships tainting his real true love. Maybe in this secular society if that attitude was more “popular” this world would be a totally different place. “Oh what a weird boy! He is not having sex with everything that comes his way!! How strange! He better get at it so he will have value in society’s eyes!!! Never mind the morals boy! Get to it!!”…geesh. Shame that having morals is considered “weird”…:dts:

 

[OldAgeGuru]

My dear, you’ve been insulting pretty much from beginning to end, albet without intention.
I don’t think I’ve been insulting at all, perhaps you just are misinterpreting my writing style, and for that I apologize. I

Yes, it is. And with all due respect, you don’t know anything about what you will or won’t do until you have your own.I do know what I will do, even now. I know my boyfriend knows, because we have discussed this. I have seen my friends who have remained at home, and frankly where’s the impetus for someone to leave if mom and dad foot the bill and do all the work.

then it’s probalby safe to say, your d-mil wouldn’t be too thrilled to have you living with her either.Yea that’s a safe assumption. Not because of any animosity between the two of us. She’s always telling my boyfriend how nice it is to have a girl around. We do girl things together. She is a great woman, and we have a lot of respect for each other. That said, she didn’t raise either of her sons to be dependent on her and their father

Nonsense again. And it flies completely contrary to how families lived for most of humanities history and in many cultures today. It has nothing to do with apron strings or with the wife not being important. Actually, it’s a sign of a full grown genuine man of self worth to provide for his entire family and place his wife by his side while he does it. Obviously, I wouldn’t want to live with a lazy moocher - married or not. I don’t do my oldest sons’ laundry now and I don’t expect to start anytime soon. They know where the washer is and are smart enough to figure it out.Notice how I didn’t say anything in my post about cutting ties completely. There is a difference between leaving your parents home, and becoming responsible for yourself and the family you have created. Yes you will always have a responsibility to the family you came from and you should absolutely help out with anything they need (within reason of course) but it’s entirely different to tell your child that they are to live on the plot of land that you purchased. It also is not really ok for that decision to be made unilaterally by the husband about where they are going to live. That is a joint decision. And people on this board will say things like the husband is the head of the family defer to his decision. To that I say HOGWASH. There should at the very least be a discussion regarding the situtation.

I
No, but they will be forever connected, God willing, long after their parents are dead.I notice how you yanked a big part of my comment out of this. Which is convienent for you. It’s great to be connected to your sibling. But, if you’re not, well, that’s ok to. Everyone’s circumstances are different. My boyfriend loves his brother, and he’s very close to him despite the huge age gap. But gasp they don’t have matching names, or similar names, or even names that start with the same letter! You know why? Because they are different people.

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

I have seen my friends who have remained at home, and frankly where’s the impetus for someone to leave if mom and dad foot the bill and do all the work.
That said, she didn’t raise either of her sons to be dependent on her and their father
Again with this? Are you reading my posts? Have I said anything about paying their bills or doing everything for them? No, indeed I have not. In fact, I’ve said the very opposite.

Notice how I didn’t say anything in my post about cutting ties completely.
Notice how I didn’t say anything in my post about making children completely useless as individuals?
it’s entirely different to tell your child that they are to live on the plot of land that you purchased.
Given that they are supposedly full grown by then, they obviously have the option to not live there. I don’t get the impression it’s a requirement so much as an inheritance, a desire to give their children a decent start in life, like an old-fashioned dowry maybe.
It also is not really ok for that decision to be made unilaterally by the husband about where they are going to live. That is a joint decision.
**Oh geez. Okay the land is already there? Way before any apparently hapless future wife? If the man is already living there when he meets his future wife, I imagine where to live once married will be discussed to some extent. Either they will agree to live on the land he has, or her home, or to leave both and obtain a new home. Good grief, this is pretty basic common sense on how it would be handled. If she refuses to live there and he refuses to not live there - then obviously they have bigger problems than where to live. **

---

And people on this board will say things like the husband is the head of the family defer to his decision. To that I say HOGWASH. There should at the very least be a discussion regarding the situtation.
Sure there should be. And you know what? Any girl without enough common sense to want to talk about where they are going to live once married shouldn’t be marrying anyone. And if she would rather just live on his already owned land? Well good for them.

I notice how you yanked a big part of my comment out of this. Which is convienent for you.
Yes, it was and didn’t loose any of the meaning, imho.

---

It’s great to be connected to your sibling. But, if you’re not, well, that’s ok to.
**I rarely ever speak to any of my siblings - 3, all older than me. It’s a shame it has to be that way. If neccessary, then that’s just what it is. I’d never say it’s okay though. I would consider it a personal failure on my part if my children were to live this way when they are grown and a hole in my heart. I hope that for decades to come they will share joys and sorrows, anger and laughter together, even if they live states/countries apart from each other. **

---

Everyone’s circumstances are different. My boyfriend loves his brother, and he’s very close to him despite the huge age gap. But gasp they don’t have matching names, or similar names, or even names that start with the same letter! You know why? Because they are different people.
**So what’s your point? Name your kid whatever you want! Every couple has different means they use to name their kids. So what? It’s their children and their choice. Much thought and consideration is usually placed on the naming of ones children, but I’ve yet to meet a parent who expects any of the kids to be the same kind of person because of their names. Frankly, you’re the first person I’ve heard to suggest such a thing. **
**btw, none of my dc have matching names, but they do have a common “theme” that most people don’t even notice. **

 

[ktp]

We have to be discerning God’s will in all of this. We can’t just pop out baby after baby without a care in the world. The question is, what does God want us to do? Not, what would make the world think twice about abortion? … But I do think that far too many people think that the way to defeat abortion is to constantly pop out baby after baby and act as if it’s nothing. That’s not respecting life, really.

*As the mother of nine, I find this attitude HIGHLY offensive. *

I’m just ‘popping them out’…?? (There were both short and long labors, many epidurals, and being cut open hip to hip twice. Not what I’d call ‘popping them out.’)

… without a care in the world??? …as if it’s nothing??? (You better believe I take very seriously how to care for them physically and spiritually, not to mention the thought of being Ginsu-knifed hip to hip again. How dare anyone say that because I have more children I somehow take their care less seriously than a mother of one or two?)

You better believe, too, that having a large family in today’s small-family world involves plenty of forethought about what our priorities are and why we’re doing something so counter-cultural. I have put plenty of thought and care into determining why the Catholic church teaches as it does about ABC, whether the Catholic church has that authority, and whether I’m going to follow the Church instituted by Christ Himself or decide I personally know better than 2,000 years great minds and holy saints. You better believe that facing the bills and care engendered by a family of 11 is going to make me think seriously about those things.

None of those reasons has anything to do with abortion, btw, except for the realization years ago that I was arrogantly picking and choosing just like the pro-abortion “Catholics,” just on a different issue.

I am not having children as a political statement or to change anyone’s mind about abortion.

I have refrained from ABC because I believe that the Catholic church was instituted by Christ Himself and just might know something.

 

[KCT]

Maybe I’m wishy - washy, but I don’t feel the need to have an opinion about this. It’s not my family or my business. --KCT

 

[AnnaTherese]

Ummm, I think I’ve been gravely misunderstood. As Catholics, we believe that God’s will comes to us in two ways. One is God’s perfect will and one is referred to as His “permissive will.” That means he permits things to happen because He knows He can bring good out of it and turn it into a blessing, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it was His original intention for it to happen. Maybe it was and maybe it wasn’t. We are not in a position to make such a judgement. Sometimes He wills something and there is no two ways about it. And sometimes He permits something. It would be like if my daughter came to me and asked for an ice cream cone. I can’t say that I’ve been walking around all day thinking about how I’d just love to give her an ice cream cone, truth be told, I know the sugar and processing and all is bad for her (particularly in commercial ice cream), but in certain circumstances and for certain reasons, I might permit her to have one. I do however, will for her to be homeschooled. I’ve made a conscious decision about that and I take that decision very seriously. That’s more like God’s perfect will. We don’t get pregnant everytime we try to, so it’s safe to say that it’s not always God’s will for a baby to come along. Babies are always a blessing and never should be called a mistake, but they come with their own natural consequences that will shape us into the parents and people that God wants us to be. Those consequences might be just what we need to overcome our own self-centeredness and advance in the spiritual life. But still those consequences ought to be considered beforehand. That’s all I’m saying. I am not in favor of contraception. I use NFP both to postpone and to help me conceive. I don’t judge this Dugger family or anyone. I’m not pointing fingers at anyone on this list. God knows their hearts. Maybe you are one of those people and maybe you aren’t. It’s just a side of the issue that doesn’t usually come up for discussion. I just don’t like to see Catholics running too far in the opposite direction believing *opposite extremism * will change people’s hearts. Because it won’t. There are some people out there who believe that breastfeeding is sinful *because *it spaces babies. (Try that one on for size! Such nonsense!!) Or who believe that NFP is only reserved for the most extreme cases, and that otherwise it’s normal and natural to have a baby every year or so. In the history of the world, it is not natural to do that. Large families, yes, but not without good spacing. People as old as Adam and Eve have known this intuitively for millenia. That’s why I bring this up. We have good intentions, but we sometimes err in our thinking about things like this because we are so passionate about them.

 

[3GirlsRUs]

**I hate to tell you this, but that had nothing to do with granny’s age! LOL Every parent I know has done this to some degree, regardless of how many kids they have. I know a fellow who said he and his sister used to answer to “Emory” because mom would start out yelling his sister’s name “Emily” and end up yelling his name “Gregory”. My poor dh is an only and his mother used to mix his name up with the dog’s. I was the youngest by 10 years (only basicly) and my parents would mix my name up with the older siblings and grandchildren. It has nothing to do with old age or the number of children. Unfortunatly. **

Agreed! I only have three and I do it all the time. One time I called my oldest by the other two girls’ names before I finally used her name…we were on the way into the grocery store and very loudly, she said, “Mommy…why don’t you know my name??” And I just said, “Well, Mommy has three beautiful girls with beautiful names and I like to hear them all…” The older lady passing us by just chuckled…

 

[3GirlsRUs]

Ummm, I think I’ve been gravely misunderstood. As Catholics, we believe that God’s will comes to us in two ways. One is God’s perfect will and one is referred to as His “permissive will.” That means he permits things to happen because He knows He can bring good out of it and turn it into a blessing, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it was His original intention for it to happen. Maybe it was and maybe it wasn’t. We are not in a position to make such a judgement. Sometimes He wills something and there is no two ways about it. And sometimes He permits something. It would be like if my daughter came to me and asked for an ice cream cone. I can’t say that I’ve been walking around all day thinking about how I’d just love to give her an ice cream cone, truth be told, I know the sugar and processing and all is bad for her (particularly in commercial ice cream), but in certain circumstances and for certain reasons, I might permit her to have one. I do however, will for her to be homeschooled. I’ve made a conscious decision about that and I take that decision very seriously. That’s more like God’s perfect will. We don’t get pregnant everytime we try to, so it’s safe to say that it’s not always God’s will for a baby to come along. Babies are always a blessing and never should be called a mistake, but they come with their own natural consequences that will shape us into the parents and people that God wants us to be. Those consequences might be just what we need to overcome our own self-centeredness and advance in the spiritual life. But still those consequences ought to be considered beforehand. That’s all I’m saying. I am not in favor of contraception. I use NFP both to postpone and to help me conceive. I don’t judge this Dugger family or anyone. I’m not pointing fingers at anyone on this list. God knows their hearts. Maybe you are one of those people and maybe you aren’t. It’s just a side of the issue that doesn’t usually come up for discussion. I just don’t like to see Catholics running too far in the opposite direction believing *opposite extremism * will change people’s hearts. Because it won’t. There are some people out there who believe that breastfeeding is sinful *because *it spaces babies. (Try that one on for size! Such nonsense!!) Or who believe that NFP is only reserved for the most extreme cases, and that otherwise it’s normal and natural to have a baby every year or so. In the history of the world, it is not natural. Large families, yes, but not without good spacing. People as old as Adam and Eve have known this intuitively for millenia. That’s why I bring this up. We have good intentions, but we sometimes err in our thinking about things like this because we are so passionate about them.

thanks for this post. This is something I am often confused about and will probably bring up in my next spiritual direction meeting with my pastor. Is there anything in the Catechism on this?
This whole “perfect will” and “permissive will” thing is something I don’t often think about.

 

[AnnaTherese]

I haven’t found it yet, but I’m not good at finding things in the Catechism. I bet if you ask in the Apologetics forum someone will find it. But I did find a link for you. It’s about cloning, but the same idea applies.

roman-catholic.com/Roman/Articles/Cloning1.htm

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

We don’t get pregnant everytime we try to, so it’s safe to say that it’s not always God’s will for a baby to come along. Babies are always a blessing and never should be called a mistake, but they come with their own natural consequences that will shape us into the parents and people that God wants us to be. Those consequences might be just what we need to overcome our own self-centeredness and advance in the spiritual life. But still those consequences ought to be considered beforehand. That’s all I’m saying. I am not in favor of contraception. I use NFP both to postpone and to help me conceive.
**Here’s the deal. Although the church permits you the use of NFP for serious personal reasons of your own discernment, the church does not say anyone is ever required to give NFP a single thought whatsoever. In the natural order of a healthy marriage/woman, it’s not neccessary or required to give postponing children any thought at all other than to a willing acceptance of any arrivals. **

Or who believe that NFP is only reserved for the most extreme cases,
The church says it is only for serious or grave reasons. For some it may take what to you is extreme to feel it is grave and serious enough to use NFP. For others things I consider to be not worth noting is a very valid reason. It is to the couples discretion to decide if the situation they are in is serious enough to not risk a pregnancy that month.

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and that otherwise it’s normal and natural to have a baby every year or so. In the history of the world, it is not natural to do that. Large families, yes, but not without good spacing.
**ahem. According to who? You? I can assure you MY fertility is very much natural and normal. It should also be noted that in the history of the world, they didn’t use NFP to get that spacing either. **

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**I have nothing against you using NFP. But I find it ironic that someone who uses NFP is claiming that the result of my trust in the Lord (“a baby every year or so”) in this area is unnatural and abnormal. **

We have good intentions, but we sometimes err in our thinking about things like this because we are so passionate about them.
I don’t think there is any err in my thinking on this. If someone wants to use a chart to space their children further apart, then I get that and have no issue with it. But it’s a stretch to claim that chart is somehow more natural and normal or thoughtful than allowing the spacing God Himself would permit.

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Babies are not like ice-cream cones. Whether I make a cone for my kid or not is completely up to me and my free will. A baby, a soul, is impossible to make without the hand of God involved. Unlike cars and so many other commodities, a child is a soul. And souls require the hand of God to be formed. Our free will is only a factor in so far as our willingness to accept the souls He brings to the marriage act.

 

[aimee]

What about their daughters?

Sorry, but that’s really just…wrong.

My mother grew up in a family of 13 that treated the girls in the same manner and let me tell you, it destroyed her self-worth and self-esteem. Something that still severely affects her to this day.

It just makes me very angry to hear about people treating their daughters that way.

I would say their daughters will be living with thier own families…