Arm around spouse/ date/"nuzzling" in pews during Mass?

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If this thread was about talking or what to wear, that would be helpful, but it obviously isn’t. Please go back and read the thread in its entirety.

Again, please clarify your “cafeteria comment” from your earlier post.
“A person who is about to make a request to a secular prince takes pains to compose himself and his words by decent dress, becoming gesture, regulated speech and close attention of mind. How much more careful ought he to be in all these things when he is about to pray to almighty God in a sacred place!” (Council of Basel

I guess you missed that part bolded in red, JUST FOR YOU!!! 🙂

Praying for you.
 
As far as kissing at the sign of peace, ideally one should not offer a different sign of peace to one’s spouse or family than one offers to those around them. The Sign of Peace is intended to express our unity in Christ as a prelude to communion. When we give different signs to different people based upon levels of affection, it serves to emphasize differences rather than unity. If you’re going to kiss the spouse, then kiss everyone else as well!.

Michelle Arnold explains in better in these two posts:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=303622

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=300671
Thanks for this. I think some other people on this thread need to read this as well. God bless.
 
Cafeteria Catholics, those that don’t follow the rubrics of the Mass/Church while at Holy Mass. Those who choose to wear improper attire. Short shorts/Eucharistic Minister? REALLY!? I see it ALL the time. Being refused communion on the tongue because some lady thinks it’s faux pas, although IT IS the 1st choice of the Vatican/Magesterium on receiving communion.

I could go on and on and on and on… but I won’t. Because, and I’ll speak for myself, I refuse to submit to cafeteria catholics who run the joint… .literally. Shepherds being led by the flock. Sad and true. I’m so glad to be rid of the last parish I used to attend.
I am equally concerned about all of those things. However, I fail to see how they fit into the context of this thread and the manner in which you used the term in response to another forum member.
 
“A person who is about to make a request to a secular prince takes pains to compose himself and his words by decent dress, becoming gesture, regulated speech and close attention of mind. How much more careful ought he to be in all these things when he is about to pray to almighty God in a sacred place!” (Council of Basel

I guess you missed that part bolded in red, JUST FOR YOU!!! 🙂

Praying for you.
No, I didn’t miss that part. I fail to see how my holding my wife’s hand or having my arm around her is unbecoming. This is obviously an area where the Church has not spoken and thus, it is open to interpretation. You are free to have your opinion and act how you choose. However, that does not make you correct.
 
Thanks for this. I think some other people on this thread need to read this as well. God bless.
Her arguments fall extremely flat. Thankfully, they are admittedly her own opinion rather than any sort of official interpretation on the part of the Church. As she noted, the GIRM does not address this at all other than to say the sign of peace should be “sober”. The suggestion that prudence dictates that people treat their spouse, with whom they are joined as one flesh by Christ in the sacrament of marriage, the same as everyone else around them is absurd.

The GIRM also states regarding the sign of peace that “the manner is to be established by conferences of bishops in accordance with the culture and customs of the peoples”. The last time I checked, the culture and custom in the United States, and much of the rest of the western world, is to kiss your spouse, shake hands with acquaintances or strangers, and perhaps hug close friends. However, if those cultural norms are not to be observed, surely the USCCB has addressed this by stating officially that I am not to kiss my wife during the sign of peace.
 
No, I didn’t miss that part. I fail to see how my holding my wife’s hand or having my arm around her is unbecoming. This is obviously an area where the Church has not spoken and thus, it is open to interpretation. You are free to have your opinion and act how you choose. However, that does not make you correct.
Another quote from that site I gave you earlier, which I’m sure you read. :rolleyes:

Focus on the priest (who is in the place of Christ) during Mass, not on your neighbor. No time is more advantageous to you for gaining graces. [For more information, try the Sacraments Section.]…

I suggest you read all that site has to offer. I’m POSITIVE you will learn something good.

God bless.

Dom
 
Another quote from that site I gave you earlier, which I’m sure you read. :rolleyes:

Focus on the priest (who is in the place of Christ) during Mass, not on your neighbor. No time is more advantageous to you for gaining graces. [For more information, try the Sacraments Section.]…

I suggest you read all that site has to offer. I’m POSITIVE you will learn something good.

God bless.

Dom
You can be as sarcastic as you like, go ahead.

The simple truth of the matter is that it is entirely possible to have your arm around someone and still pay attention to someone else.

Furthermore, while it is entirely appropriate to judge actions and to admonish sinners as taught by the Church, it is not appropriate to attempt to judge what is going on in someone else’s mind or heart. There is no way for you or anyone else to know what someone is thinking about or focusing on, by the manner in which they sit.

The bottom line is that you are placing your personal preferences as a standard to judge not only the behavior of others, but the motivations behind them.
 
Her arguments fall extremely flat. Thankfully, they are admittedly her own opinion rather than any sort of official interpretation on the part of the Church. As she noted, the GIRM does not address this at all other than to say the sign of peace should be “sober”. The suggestion that prudence dictates that people treat their spouse, with whom they are joined as one flesh by Christ in the sacrament of marriage, the same as everyone else around them is absurd.

The GIRM also states regarding the sign of peace that “the manner is to be established by conferences of bishops in accordance with the culture and customs of the peoples”. The last time I checked, the culture and custom in the United States, and much of the rest of the western world, is to kiss your spouse, shake hands with acquaintances or strangers, and perhaps hug close friends. However, if those cultural norms are not to be observed, surely the USCCB has addressed this by stating officially that I am not to kiss my wife during the sign of peace.
That also depends on where you are from. It was NOT and never has been the NORM in the US of A to kiss your spouse, or hug your neighbor. A hug in France is equivalent to a handshake in the USA. Same goes for Canada.

“The Rite of Peace
82. There follows the Rite of Peace, by which the Church entreats peace and unity
for herself and for the whole human family, and the faithful express to each other their
ecclesial communion and mutual charity before communicating in the Sacrament.
In the dioceses of Canada, the sign of peace is given by a handshake or a bow.
However, it is appropriate that each person offer the sign of peace only to those who are
nearest and in a sober manner.” -GIRM

“The Priest may give the Sign of Peace to the ministers but always remains within
the sanctuary, so that the celebration is not disrupted. He may do the same if, for a
reasonable cause, he wishes to offer the Sign of Peace to a small number of the faithful.
According to what is decided by the Conference of Bishops, all express to one another
peace, communion, and charity. While the Sign of Peace is being given, it is permissible
to say, The peace of the Lord be with you always, to which the reply is Amen.” -GIRM

This is directly quoted from the GIRM. Where does it give any inclination that hugging and kissing is permissible? Where does it say that? Please provide documentation that the Church has accepted on the matter. Not just ‘the last time you checked’… 👍:rolleyes:
 
You can be as sarcastic as you like, go ahead.

The simple truth of the matter is that it is entirely possible to have your arm around someone and still pay attention to someone else.

Furthermore, while it is entirely appropriate to judge actions and to admonish sinners as taught by the Church, it is not appropriate to attempt to judge what is going on in someone else’s mind or heart. There is no way for you or anyone else to know what someone is thinking about or focusing on, by the manner in which they sit.

The bottom line is that you are placing your personal preferences as a standard to judge not only the behavior of others, but the motivations behind them.
Where do you get off judging me like that? I gave NO inclination to sarcasm. YOU WILL learn something from that site, if you decide to read any of it.

I also said nothing of the sort. It came from that site and other sources what I’ve been reiterating all this time. Don’t put words in my mouth.

I have not placed any personal preferences what so ever. It is the Church’s stance on the matter and I hope you will one day see that.

I will not and never will apologize for someone’s not so ‘sober’ exchange of peace or affection which is NOT appropriate for Mass. Thank you and God bless.

PAX

Dom
 
Where do you get off judging me like that? I gave NO inclination to sarcasm.
Then you should probably pay attention to what you put in your posts.

Put your mouse over that emoticon that you have now used twice, :rolleyes: and see what it says.
 
Her arguments fall extremely flat. Thankfully, they are admittedly her own opinion rather than any sort of official interpretation on the part of the Church. As she noted, the GIRM does not address this at all other than to say the sign of peace should be “sober”. The suggestion that prudence dictates that people treat their spouse, with whom they are joined as one flesh by Christ in the sacrament of marriage, the same as everyone else around them is absurd.

The GIRM also states regarding the sign of peace that “the manner is to be established by conferences of bishops in accordance with the culture and customs of the peoples”. The last time I checked, the culture and custom in the United States, and much of the rest of the western world, is to kiss your spouse, shake hands with acquaintances or strangers, and perhaps hug close friends. However, if those cultural norms are not to be observed, surely the USCCB has addressed this by stating officially that I am not to kiss my wife during the sign of peace.
So what you are saying is that you are giving more peace to your family than the rest of the congregation. Does this mean you see others as less significant? As lesser than your family? Are we not all created in the image of God, equal? So why are you giving more to your family than to your neighbor?
 
Then you should probably pay attention to what you put in your posts.

Put your mouse over that emoticon that you have now used twice, :rolleyes: and see what it says.
I honestly did not intend to use it as such. I saw rolleyes, not sarcastic… it’s the first time I’ve seen that. Thanks for pointing that out. I will use caution from now on when using those. No sarcasm intended.

🙂
 
So what you are saying is that you are giving more peace to your family than the rest of the congregation. Does this mean you see others as less significant? As lesser than your family? Are we not all created in the image of God, equal? So why are you giving more to your family than to your neighbor?
No, there you go again judging someone’s intent and what is in their heart, by their outward actions.

What I am doing interacting with them in a manner which is culturally appropriate as noted in the GIRM, and is also representative of the fact that my wife and I are joined as one flesh by God. I wish everyone the peace of Christ, including you.
 
Here are some on talking in Church.

**“Nothing so becomes a church as silence and good order. Noise belongs to theatres, and baths, and public processions, and market-places: but where doctrines, and such doctrines, are the subject of teaching, there should be stillness, and quiet, and calm reflection, and a haven of much repose.” (St. John Chrysostom, Doctor of the Church)

“Let all mortal flesh be silent, standing there…in fear and trembling; for the King of kings, the Lord of lords, Christ our God is about to be sacrificed and to be given as food to the faithful.” (St. James)

“Silence in the presence of the Lord GOD!” (Zeph. 1:7)

“But the LORD is in his holy temple; silence before him, all the earth!” (Hab. 2:20)

“When you are before the altar where Christ reposes, you ought no longer to think that you are amongst men; but believe that there are troops of angels and archangels standing by you, and trembling with respect before the sovereign Master of Heaven and earth. Therefore, when you are in church, be there in silence, fear, and veneration.” (St. John Chrysostom, Doctor of the Church**)

“The worship rendered by the Church to God must be, in its entirety, interior as well as exterior… But the chief element of divine worship must be interior” (Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei)

On dress:

**“Give to the LORD the glory due his name! Bring gifts, and enter his presence; worship the LORD in holy attire. Tremble before him, all the earth; he has made the world firm, not to be moved.” (1 Chron. 16:29-30)

“The dress of the body should not discredit the good of the soul.” (St. Cyprian)

“A person who is about to make a request to a secular prince takes pains to compose himself and his words by decent dress, becoming gesture, regulated speech and close attention of mind**. How much more careful ought he to be in all these things when he is about to pray to almighty God in a sacred place!” (Council of Basel)

“One cannot sufficiently deplore the blindness of so many women of every age and condition; made foolish by desire to please, they do not see to what a degree the indecency of their clothing shocks every honest man, and offends God. Most of them would formerly have blushed for such apparel as for a grave fault against Christian modesty; now it does not suffice for them to exhibit themselves on the public thoroughfares; they do not fear to cross the threshold of the Churches to assist at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and even to bear the seducing food of shameful passions to the Eucharistic Table where one receives the heavenly Author of purity. And We speak not of those exotic and barbarous dances recently imported into fashionable circles, one more shocking than the other; one cannot imagine anything more suitable for banishing all the remains of modesty.” (Pope Benedict XV)

“Women must be decently dressed, especially when they go to church. The parish priest may, with due prudence, refuse them entrance to the church and access to the reception of the Sacraments, each and every time that they come to the church immodestly dressed.” (General Pastoral Directive, 20th Century A.D.)

“Similarly, (too,) women should adorn themselves with proper conduct, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hairstyles and gold ornaments, or pearls, or expensive clothes, but rather, as befits women who profess reverence for God, with good deeds.” (St. Paul, 1 Tm. 2:9-10)

“A man’s attire, his hearty laughter and his gait, proclaim him for what he is.” (Sirach 19:26)

Just something simple to ponder on:
**
“When you hear Mass, do you come in the same frame of mind as the Blessed Virgin at Calvary? Because it is the same God, and the same Sacrifice.” (St. John Vianney)

“Now the exhortation of the Apostle, 'Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,” requires that all Christians should possess, as far as humanly possible, the same dispositions as those which the divine Redeemer had when He offered Himself in sacrifice: that is to say, they should in a humble attitude of mind, pay adoration, honor, praise and thanksgiving to the supreme majesty of God. Moreover, it means that they must assume to some extent the character of a victim, that they deny themselves as the Gospel commands, that freely and of their own accord they do penance and that each detests and satisfies for his sins. It means, in a word, that we must all undergo with Christ a mystical death on the cross so that we can apply to ourselves the words of St. Paul, ‘With Christ I am nailed to the cross.’" (Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei)**

When I go to Church, I give it my all to nail myself to the Cross with Christ, not while holding my dear wife, whom I love tremendously. Time and a place.

(This may anger a few, but I’m not here to make friends. I’m here to speak the Truth.)

To be Catholic is to be true to our Faith, because we know it’s rules and traditions are from God, not from some pastor who started it 500 years ago.

Here is a link where I got the info.

mycatholicsource.com/mcs/pc/proper_church_conduct.htm

I’ll send you more if you want. I know there’s not much for ‘putting your arm’ around your spouse, but I think a LOT of it speaks for itself. Focus on CHRIST, not on putting your arm around your spouse, which IS a distraction, not just to me, but to many.

God bless. I hope this helps.
**Dominique :knight1:1234,

Your quotes say it all, beautifully and clearly.

I have quoted the entirety again as it answers my question :blessyou:perfectly.:angel1:

God bless you for taking the time to explain the beauty and solemnity of the Mass,:highprayer: and how we should participate in it in that same frame of mind, spirit and body, as befits our Lord.

Well done, brother in Christ!:yyeess::grouphug::heaven:
Kathryn (Original Poster)**:heaven:
 
No, there you go again judging someone’s intent and what is in their heart, by their outward actions.

What I am doing interacting with them in a manner which is culturally appropriate as noted in the GIRM, and is also representative of the fact that my wife and I are joined as one flesh by God. I wish everyone the peace of Christ, including you.
Those were questions. Not finger pointing. And as for your own translation of the GIRM, that’s why we have so many protestant churches today, because they interpret what is said to their liking, justifying their behavior.

Michelle Arnold
Catholic Answers Apologist

“To hug one’s children, kiss one’s spouse, and then turn and nod and exchange handshakes and peace signs with others, indicates the levels of affection you feel toward others. In other words, you are singling out some people for more lavish displays of affection than others, when the Eucharist is supposed to signify our mutual communion in Christ. While the Church does not explicitly forbid PDAs during the rite of peace, prudence suggests that a “sober” exchange of peace with one’s fellow congregants excludes hugging and kissing family members.”

I’ll take what an Apologist says over the matter. Thanks for your opinion,
 
**Dominique :knight1:1234,

Your quotes say it all, beautifully and clearly.

I have quoted the entirety again as it answers my question :blessyou:perfectly.:angel1:

God bless you for taking the time to explain the beauty and solemnity of the Mass,:highprayer: and how we should participate in it in that same frame of mind, spirit and body, as befits our Lord.

Well done, brother in Christ!:yyeess::grouphug::heaven:
Kathryn (Original Poster)**:heaven:
Thank you Kathryn! I appreciate the comment. God bless you! Pax and prayers your way!
 
Probably because the title of the emoticon is Roll Eyes (Sarcastic).
I see this now. Thanks for pointing that out. I will be more careful on how I use those from now on. Hadn’t seen it before. I’m sorry i missed that.

Prayers your way! God bless and thanks .
 
Here are some on talking in Church.

**“Nothing so becomes a church as silence and good order. Noise belongs to theatres, and baths, and public processions, and market-places: but where doctrines, and such doctrines, are the subject of teaching, there should be stillness, and quiet, and calm reflection, and a haven of much repose.” (St. John Chrysostom, Doctor of the Church)

“Let all mortal flesh be silent, standing there…in fear and trembling; for the King of kings, the Lord of lords, Christ our God is about to be sacrificed and to be given as food to the faithful.” (St. James)

“Silence in the presence of the Lord GOD!” (Zeph. 1:7)

“But the LORD is in his holy temple; silence before him, all the earth!” (Hab. 2:20)

“When you are before the altar where Christ reposes, you ought no longer to think that you are amongst men; but believe that there are troops of angels and archangels standing by you, and trembling with respect before the sovereign Master of Heaven and earth. Therefore, when you are in church, be there in silence, fear, and veneration.” (St. John Chrysostom, Doctor of the Church**)

“The worship rendered by the Church to God must be, in its entirety, interior as well as exterior… But the chief element of divine worship must be interior” (Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei)

On dress:

**“Give to the LORD the glory due his name! Bring gifts, and enter his presence; worship the LORD in holy attire. Tremble before him, all the earth; he has made the world firm, not to be moved.” (1 Chron. 16:29-30)

“The dress of the body should not discredit the good of the soul.” (St. Cyprian)

“A person who is about to make a request to a secular prince takes pains to compose himself and his words by decent dress, becoming gesture, regulated speech and close attention of mind**. How much more careful ought he to be in all these things when he is about to pray to almighty God in a sacred place!” (Council of Basel)

“One cannot sufficiently deplore the blindness of so many women of every age and condition; made foolish by desire to please, they do not see to what a degree the indecency of their clothing shocks every honest man, and offends God. Most of them would formerly have blushed for such apparel as for a grave fault against Christian modesty; now it does not suffice for them to exhibit themselves on the public thoroughfares; they do not fear to cross the threshold of the Churches to assist at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and even to bear the seducing food of shameful passions to the Eucharistic Table where one receives the heavenly Author of purity. And We speak not of those exotic and barbarous dances recently imported into fashionable circles, one more shocking than the other; one cannot imagine anything more suitable for banishing all the remains of modesty.” (Pope Benedict XV)

“Women must be decently dressed, especially when they go to church. The parish priest may, with due prudence, refuse them entrance to the church and access to the reception of the Sacraments, each and every time that they come to the church immodestly dressed.” (General Pastoral Directive, 20th Century A.D.)

“Similarly, (too,) women should adorn themselves with proper conduct, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hairstyles and gold ornaments, or pearls, or expensive clothes, but rather, as befits women who profess reverence for God, with good deeds.” (St. Paul, 1 Tm. 2:9-10)

“A man’s attire, his hearty laughter and his gait, proclaim him for what he is.” (Sirach 19:26)

Just something simple to ponder on:
**
“When you hear Mass, do you come in the same frame of mind as the Blessed Virgin at Calvary? Because it is the same God, and the same Sacrifice.” (St. John Vianney)

“Now the exhortation of the Apostle, 'Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,” requires that all Christians should possess, as far as humanly possible, the same dispositions as those which the divine Redeemer had when He offered Himself in sacrifice: that is to say, they should in a humble attitude of mind, pay adoration, honor, praise and thanksgiving to the supreme majesty of God. Moreover, it means that they must assume to some extent the character of a victim, that they deny themselves as the Gospel commands, that freely and of their own accord they do penance and that each detests and satisfies for his sins. It means, in a word, that we must all undergo with Christ a mystical death on the cross so that we can apply to ourselves the words of St. Paul, ‘With Christ I am nailed to the cross.’" (Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei)**

When I go to Church, I give it my all to nail myself to the Cross with Christ, not while holding my dear wife, whom I love tremendously. Time and a place.

(This may anger a few, but I’m not here to make friends. I’m here to speak the Truth.)

To be Catholic is to be true to our Faith, because we know it’s rules and traditions are from God, not from some pastor who started it 500 years ago.

Here is a link where I got the info.

mycatholicsource.com/mcs/pc/proper_church_conduct.htm

I’ll send you more if you want. I know there’s not much for ‘putting your arm’ around your spouse, but I think a LOT of it speaks for itself. Focus on CHRIST, not on putting your arm around your spouse, which IS a distraction, not just to me, but to many.

God bless. I hope this helps.
**Dominique :knight1:1234,

Your quotes say it all, beautifully and clearly.

I have quoted the entirety again as it answers my question :blessyou:perfectly.:angel1:

God bless you for taking the time to explain the beauty and solemnity of the Mass,:highprayer: and how we should participate in it in that same frame of mind, spirit and body, as befits our Lord.

Well done, brother in Christ!:yyeess::grouphug::heaven:
Kathryn (Original Poster)**:heaven:
 
Those were questions. Not finger pointing. And as for your own translation of the GIRM, that’s why we have so many protestant churches today, because they interpret what is said to their liking, justifying their behavior.
I didn’t re-translate it, I offered an interpretation, because it has not been interpreted authoritatively in this area, by someone who has that authority. Show me an authoritative interpretation of the GIRM which discusses kissing one’s spouse during the sign of peace or putting an arm around one’s spouse during the readings or the homily, and I will start listening. Until then, you need to start watching who you are accusing of justifying of their behavior or acting like a protestant.
Michelle Arnold
Catholic Answers Apologist

“To hug one’s children, kiss one’s spouse, and then turn and nod and exchange handshakes and peace signs with others, indicates the levels of affection you feel toward others. In other words, you are singling out some people for more lavish displays of affection than others, when the Eucharist is supposed to signify our mutual communion in Christ. While the Church does not explicitly forbid PDAs during the rite of peace, prudence suggests that a “sober” exchange of peace with one’s fellow congregants excludes hugging and kissing family members.”
I’ll take what an Apologist says over the matter. Thanks for your opinion,
She is entitled to her opinion, as are you, again since it has not been interpreted authoritatively in this area. I have no problem at all if you decide that the GIRM means that you should not give your wife a kiss during the sign of peace or that you should not put your arm around her. As long as you are using your interpretation to moderate your own behavior, and not someone else’s. The problem comes in, when you try to make your interpretation, or someone else’s who lacks teaching authority, the standard by which you judge the behavior of other persons.

I spoke to my pastor about this after this thread first came out. This particular priest is very direct and is not remotely afraid to say things about dress and appropriate behavior at Mass. I have never heard him say a single thing which was not 100% orthodox. His response was that giving one’s spouse a kiss during the sign of peace or sitting while holding hands or having an arm around the other was not a problem at all. In fact, he stated that married couples interacting in that fashion at Mass give a strong witness to the beauty of marriage for those children who may not get that same type of witness at home. He also stated that people have too much time on their hands if they are worrying about things like this.
 
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