Armageddon, the Beast, Appearance of Anti-Christ, Gog and Magog, End Times, rapture, Second Coming of Jesus, gathering of the Israel

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You are of course assuming that it only has to be one name that fits.

So it is only confusing if you want it to be Planten, which i think you do want. This is why you guys find a million ways to ask the same question. To try and create confusion. The nature of God is the nature of God. He is what he is.

I think it shows the weakness of your religion that you keep asking the one question when the simple answer has always been that we can only know God through his revelation to us. Who is like God ?

That you guys keep focusing on this question shows to me your theology is very shallow.

But then i’ve read the koran, and i know how shallow it is. There is nothing new there and it is a backward step in that it is very divisive, controlling and presents God as a distant aloof figure damning everybody who doesn’t promote Islam. No wonder there are strict penalties for leaving it. There is very little love there.

Jesus is ‘the son of man’ as reference to the Jew Daniels vision of one like a son of man will be given honour and kingship over earth in heaven. Jesus claim here is to associate himself with that vision and to fulfil the vision, as the scriptures say.

Jesus is the ‘son of David’ as reference to the many other Jewish prophecies that a Messiah will arise to gain honour and kingship from the line of David. Jesus’ disciples in the NT call him this to associate Jesus with these prophecies, and show how he fulfils them, as the scriptures say.

Jesus is the son Mary in that he was conceived of the Holy Spirit in the womb of Mary as the scriptures say.

Nor Jesus nor any of his followers call him the son of Joseph. His opponents ask the question if he is.

Most of all, Jesus is the second person of the trinity, the one true God. To acknowledge this he is given the term the ‘Son of God’, as the scriptures say. If you don’t like the word ‘son’ then second person of the trinity is fine. Tri Unity - 3 in one.

Through fulfilling the Jewish prophecies of the OT Jesus is the main focus of the entire bible.

As God fulfilling the prophecies he is a perfect sacrifice as the second person of the trinity, incarnated in his creation to touch man in the most personal way imaginable. God knows how to do that, he is not aloof and distant and uncaring but wants a message to talk to our very souls. How we receive that message is up to us.

It is this incarnation, and statement and teaching of his death and ressurrection which forms the basis of God’s relationship with man in his new covenant.

This covenant makes us aware of our sins and the pain it causes God through the statement of Jesus Christ’s sufferring at humankinds hands. It is a sober lesson that makes us confront the reality and shame of sin and calls us through this divine sacrifice instead to holiness.

Jesus is the way the truth and the life. No one goes to his father except through him.

It is covenant which calls man to respect, honour, obey, worship and emulate his creator in a personal and loving experience with God.

Being God of course he cannot be killed in the literal sense, only in the human form. As Christians we distinguish between the heavenly spiritual reality behind the appearance of the material creation.

His miracles and ressurrection are a powerful statement. The respect he has from his people for his love and sacrifice has a powerful response, as it should have and as he knew it would. God knows us, and he knows how to touch our hearts, minds and souls. He knows how to get our attention and impress us with his goodness. He knows what he is doing.

I can’t help the nature of God planten. He created me, not the other way around. He is what he is.

And for his act of wisdom, humility, love and sacrifice he has my eternal pledge of allegiance.

What stronger bond could there be ?

He knows what he is doing.
 
abucs said:
You are of course assuming that it only has to be one name that fits.

So it is only confusing if you want it to be Planten, which i think you do want. This is why you guys find a million ways to ask the same question. To try and create confusion. The nature of God is the nature of God. He is what he is.

I think it shows the weakness of your religion that you keep asking the one question when the simple answer has always been that we can only know God through his revelation to us. Who is like God ?

That you guys keep focusing on this question shows to me your theology is very shallow.

But then i’ve read the koran, and i know how shallow it is. There is nothing new there and it is a backward step in that it is very divisive, controlling and presents God as a distant aloof figure damning everybody who doesn’t promote Islam. No wonder there are strict penalties for leaving it. There is very little love there.

Jesus is ‘the son of man’ as reference to the Jew Daniels vision of one like a son of man will be given honour and kingship over earth in heaven. Jesus claim here is to associate himself with that vision and to fulfil the vision, as the scriptures say.

Jesus is the ‘son of David’ as reference to the many other Jewish prophecies that a Messiah will arise to gain honour and kingship from the line of David. Jesus’ disciples in the NT call him this to associate Jesus with these prophecies, and show how he fulfils them, as the scriptures say.

Jesus is the son Mary in that he was conceived of the Holy Spirit in the womb of Mary as the scriptures say.

Nor Jesus nor any of his followers call him the son of Joseph. His opponents ask the question if he is.

Most of all, Jesus is the second person of the trinity, the one true God. To acknowledge this he is given the term the ‘Son of God’, as the scriptures say. If you don’t like the word ‘son’ then second person of the trinity is fine. Tri Unity - 3 in one.

Through fulfilling the Jewish prophecies of the OT Jesus is the main focus of the entire bible.

As God fulfilling the prophecies he is a perfect sacrifice as the second person of the trinity, incarnated in his creation to touch man in the most personal way imaginable. God knows how to do that, he is not aloof and distant and uncaring but wants a message to talk to our very souls. How we receive that message is up to us.

It is this incarnation, and statement and teaching of his death and ressurrection which forms the basis of God’s relationship with man in his new covenant.

This covenant makes us aware of our sins and the pain it causes God through the statement of Jesus Christ’s sufferring at humankinds hands. It is a sober lesson that makes us confront the reality and shame of sin and calls us through this divine sacrifice instead to holiness.

Jesus is the way the truth and the life. No one goes to his father except through him.

It is covenant which calls man to respect, honour, obey, worship and emulate his creator in a personal and loving experience with God.

Being God of course he cannot be killed in the literal sense, only in the human form. As Christians we distinguish between the heavenly spiritual reality behind the appearance of the material creation.

His miracles and ressurrection are a powerful statement. The respect he has from his people for his love and sacrifice has a powerful response, as it should have and as he knew it would. God knows us, and he knows how to touch our hearts, minds and souls. He knows how to get our attention and impress us with his goodness. He knows what he is doing.

I can’t help the nature of God planten. He created me, not the other way around. He is what he is.

And for his act of wisdom, humility, love and sacrifice he has my eternal pledge of allegiance.

What stronger bond could there be ?

He knows what he is doing.
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Thank you for your long post. I will believe all that, i.e. Jesus is the son of God and he is the son of man. He is the son of Mary. He is the son of Joseph (That is his earthly father). And Jesus is son of King David too. All is well. Thanks.
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi
How would you like to comment on the following

THE SECOND COMING
  1. During the disciples’ lifetime
    There are several passages in the gospels where Jesus says he will return in the disciples’ lifetime (Mark 13:30, Matthew 10:23, 16:28, 24:34, Luke 21:32, etc.).
Thanks
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Respectfully, you are misunderstanding these Bible verses. Jesus is talking about the destruction of the Temple, and the end of the Old Testament Age. When Jesus rose from the dead and ascended into heaven a New Age started. Jesus started ruling his kingdom immediately. He is not waiting until his return. The destruction of the Temple was his judgment on them, and was proof to the world that He is ruling. After that his kingdom was free to grow.

Mark 13:2-4 Jesus said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? There will not be one stone left upon another that will not be thrown down.” As he was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple area, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked him privately, “Tell us, when will this happen, and what sign will there be when all these things are about to come to an end?”

Mat 10:7-8 As you go, make this proclamation: ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ Cure the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, drive out demons. Without cost you have received; without cost you are to give.

Mat 16:21 From that time on, Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer greatly from the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed and on the third day be raised.

Mat 24:1-3 *Jesus left the temple area and was going away, when his disciples approached him to point out the temple buildings. He said to them in reply, “You see all these things, do you not? Amen, I say to you, there will not be left here a stone upon another stone that will not be thrown down.” As he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately and said, “**Tell us, when will this happen, and what sign will there be of your coming, and of the end of the age?” ***

Luke 21:6-7 *“All that you see here–the days will come when there will not be left a stone upon another stone that will not be thrown down.” Then they asked him, "Teacher, when will this happen? And what sign will there be when all these things are about to happen?" *

Peace,

Ryan 🙂
 
abucs said:
As God fulfilling the prophecies he is a perfect sacrifice as the second person of the trinity, incarnated in his creation to touch man in the most personal way imaginable.
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How does being God make Jesus a perfect sacrifice?
 
This follows on from the Jewish practice of sacrificing animals in the Jerusalem temple for the expiation of sins.

Only the most unblemished animals could be used and the idea was that the sin of the people would pass from the Jewish people to that of the animal by the priest laying his hands on the animal at the time of the sacrifice.

Jesus’ similar Jerusalem sacrifice for sins at the hands of the Jewish authorities was not just for the expiation of Jewish sins but for the world and was a one time event.

As such, since Jesus is the second person of the trinity, the one true God, and because God is perfect, so too is the sacrifice in an infinitely more lasting way than the old Jewish yearly practice of sacrificing unblemished animals.

So you have the continuation of the sacrificial element for the forgiveness of sins which was to the forefront of the Jewish mind and his relationship with God.

With the destruction of the temple 40 years after Jesus’ death the old sacrificial covenant was stopped and has not been practiced since.

Secondly, the idea of God as the perfect sacrifice for the new covenant binds the people under that covenant not just in words but in action and demands a response to that action - to God.

Gods actions of perfect sacrifice, perfect love and perfect humility demand the same response back from the people of the new covenant towards God.

It is a one time event with everlasting consequences and binds God to man.

I think in the OT it says somewhere, foreshadowing the future new covenant God will make - ‘i will write my laws on their hearts’.

Only the sacrifice of God himself in a loving way can make up for the sins of all of humanity. I think as it also says somewhere in the NT, man is not worthy enough to put himself right before God. Let alone putting all of humanity right, should we be faithful to that new covenant.
 
ryanoneil; 3261964:
When Jesus rose from the dead and ascended into heaven a New Age started.
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Hi

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim. We believe in Moses, Torah (OTBible), Jesus, Mary and Injeel/Gospel (NTBible) because Muhammad/Quran/Islam has mentioned about them.

So, accordingly Jesus never died on Cross, hence no need of his resurrection from the dead or of his ascension. The age remained the same; the only change reflected was the mark that as per the Covenant of GodAllahYHWH with Abraham, the blessings were to shift hand from the offspring of Isaac to the offspring of Ishmael.

With Muhammad a new era started, in my opinion.

Now no new or old ProphetMessenger of GodAllahYHWH could come for the guidance of the humanity, except in a metaphoric sense, and only the one who accepts the Canon-of-Muhammad and implements it that is Quran.

Everybody stands a witness, though my Catholic friends talk of Second Coming of Jesus, yet Jesus has, in my opinion, refused to come physically and literally for the last 2008 years. The PromisedMessiah 1838-1908, the only to come is a successor of Muhammad, so that proves my point.

Naturally others could differ with me, which they are entitled to out of their free will, no compulsion.

I respect your religion.

Thanks
 
abucs said:
This follows on from the Jewish practice of sacrificing animals in the Jerusalem temple for the expiation of sins.

Only the most unblemished animals could be used and the idea was that the sin of the people would pass from the Jewish people to that of the animal by the priest laying his hands on the animal at the time of the sacrifice.

Jesus’ similar Jerusalem sacrifice for sins at the hands of the Jewish authorities was not just for the expiation of Jewish sins but for the world and was a one time event.
Click to expand...
There are a couple of problems though. The NT makes it quite clear that if you are Jewish or anyone else and reject Jesus then you won’t receive forgiveness and you die in your sins.

Also if the actual death of Jesus forgave sins once and for all, then that’s saying you never have to ask God forgiveness when you sin, your sins are already forgiven. I don’t believe that either.

The reason Jesus died is so he can be obedient to God in preaching His word to the death, and THEN be made High Priest who takes our prayers of repentance to God to make atonement so we can receive forgiveness. So his actual death doesn’t really forgive sin, but what he does after his death as High Priest does.

So all that considered I don’t see what need Jesus would have to be God to be a perfect sacrifice, he only had to be a man obedient to God who sacrificed his life so he can be in this position to make atonement for us.

That’s what makes his sacrifice perfect, his obedience to God as a man, not as like a perfect animal who is God.
 
Originally Posted by abucs
This follows on from the Jewish practice of sacrificing animals in the Jerusalem temple for the expiation of sins.
Click to expand...
Only the most unblemished animals could be used and the idea was that the sin of the people would pass from the Jewish people to that of the animal by the priest laying his hands on the animal at the time of the sacrifice.
Click to expand...
Jesus’ similar Jerusalem sacrifice for sins at the hands of the Jewish authorities was not just for the expiation of Jewish sins but for the world and was a one time event.
Click to expand...
This sacrifice business of the Jews, since Mary and Joseph were real Jews, devoted to God, Jesus also was a real Jew lived upto about 30 years before his ministry, They must have all offered sacrifices in the manner mentioned above by abucs,. Is there any record of Jesus also having offered any kind of sacrifice on the alter?? I mean for the thirty years or the rest of his life (33 years) did Jesus offer anything as sacrifice? This is an important question please let us know from the records.
 
I believe the priests in Jerusalem offerred the sacrifice on behalf of Gods people - the Jews.

But i am open to correction on this point.
 
mr. planten.
all you are trying to do is to disprove what we as christians believe. the life, death and resurrection of our dear Lord Jesus Christ. I see no point in these arguments. obviously you will always gone find some writing in somewhere and try to apply to the Holy Scriptures or to your Q’uran trying to prove you are right. there is only one truth and that is not what you believe but it is what it is. and the truth is not something it is somebody. Jesus said I am the truth, the way to eternal life. has mohammed ever claimed such a thing? has anybody in your herd ever claimed to have seeing mohammed going up in the clouds to Heaven? Jesus’ apostles did. the prove is that they were willing to die for it. has mohammed been raised from the dead? no disrespect for your prophet for i respect all people. i suggest you stop reading so much and spent more time with God asking Him humbly to open your ears and your eyes that you may see His truth. Praying for you for strength and God’ s love.
“Understand is the reward of faith. Therefore, seek not to understand what you believe but believe that you may understand” St Augustine.
 
FaithofAbraham said:
There are a couple of problems though. The NT makes it quite clear that if you are Jewish or anyone else and reject Jesus then you won’t receive forgiveness and you die in your sins.

Also if the actual death of Jesus forgave sins once and for all, then that’s saying you never have to ask God forgiveness when you sin, your sins are already forgiven. I don’t believe that either.

The reason Jesus died is so he can be obedient to God in preaching His word to the death, and THEN be made High Priest who takes our prayers of repentance to God to make atonement so we can receive forgiveness. So his actual death doesn’t really forgive sin, but what he does after his death as High Priest does.

So all that considered I don’t see what need Jesus would have to be God to be a perfect sacrifice, he only had to be a man obedient to God who sacrificed his life so he can be in this position to make atonement for us.

That’s what makes his sacrifice perfect, his obedience to God as a man, not as like a perfect animal who is God.
Click to expand...
I respectfully disagree and scripture proves it. You are close to the right idea, but off the mark. Issac was a man obedient to God who was willing to sacrifice his life. God could have put him in a position to make atonement for us, but God knew that no mere man could do that. God decided before the creation of the world that He would be the sacrifice for us. That is why God stayed Abrahams hand. Read what scripture says about Jesus sacrifice.

Heb 7:27 He has no need, as did the high priests, to offer sacrifice day after day, first for his own sins and then for those of the people; he did that once for all when he offered himself.

Heb 9:25-28 *Not that he might offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters each year into the sanctuary with blood that is not his own; if that were so, he would have had to suffer repeatedly from the foundation of the world. But now once for all he has appeared at the end of the ages to take away sin by his sacrifice. Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment, so also Christ, offered once to take away the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to take away sin but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await him. *

With this in mind, we also remember what our Lord commanded at the Last Supper, Luke 22:14-20 . . * "This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me. . ."*

1 Cor 11:23-27 *For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes. Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. *

The Last Supper, which is inseparably linked to Good Friday (and the Resurrection), is perpetuated in the holy Mass for time eternal. Therefore, the actual sacrifice of Christ on the cross and the sacrifice of the Mass are inseparably united as one single sacrifice. For this reason, just as Christ washed away our sins with his blood on the altar of the cross, the sacrifice of the Mass does the same. We must repent and ask for forgiveness though. When we ask for forgiveness the eternal sacrifice becomes available to us and He pardons our wrongdoings and sins. Because Jesus sacrifice is once for all, salvation also applies to those who died before the time of Jesus. Which is why he decended to the dead and released the souls in Sheol. Befpre his sacrifice the Gates of Heaven were closed.

Peace,

Ryan 🙂
 
ryanoneil said:
God could have put him in a position to make atonement for us, but God knew that no mere man could do that.
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But Aaron’s sons did do that for a while, unless it was just fake. So I’m still not seeing where God must be the High Priest, why not just Jesus if God puts him in that role.
ryanoneil said:
The Last Supper, which is inseparably linked to Good Friday (and the Resurrection), is perpetuated in the holy Mass for time eternal. Therefore, the actual sacrifice of Christ on the cross and the sacrifice of the Mass are inseparably united as one single sacrifice. For this reason, just as Christ washed away our sins with his blood on the altar of the cross, the sacrifice of the Mass does the same. We must repent and ask for forgiveness though. When we ask for forgiveness the eternal sacrifice becomes available to us and He pardons our wrongdoings and sins. Because Jesus sacrifice is once for all, salvation also applies to those who died before the time of Jesus.
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It still seems you are saying you have to sacrifice Jesus over and over for Mass, so the one-time thing isn’t actually good enough without more sacrifices. I say kind of the same except that the real sacrifice is prayer which Jesus as High Priest takes to God for us.

But again I’m not seeing where being God has anything to do with all this.
 
paarsurrey said:
Everybody stands a witness, though my Catholic friends talk of Second Coming of Jesus, yet Jesus has, in my opinion, refused to come physically and literally for the last 2008 years. The PromisedMessiah 1838-1908, the only to come is a successor of Muhammad, so that proves my point.
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There is a good reason why Jesus has not returned. He is gathering as many souls to himself, before the end of the world, as possible. He is giving us as much time as possible.

When he comes again it will really be the end. There will be eternal salvation for those who await him, and eternal damnation for those who reject him. There will be no time left for second chances.

Peace,

Ryan 🙂
 
ryanoneil said:
There is a good reason why Jesus has not returned. He is gathering as many souls to himself, before the end of the world, as possible. He is giving us as much time as possible.

When he comes again it will really be the end. There will be eternal salvation for those who await him, and eternal damnation for those who reject him. There will be no time left for second chances.

Peace,
Click to expand...
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim. We believe in Moses, Torah (OTBible), Jesus, Mary and Injeel/Gospel (NTBible) because Muhammad/Quran/Islam has mentioned about them.

So, accordingly Jesus never died on Cross, hence no need of his resurrection from the dead or of his ascension. The age remained the same; the only change reflected was the mark that as per the Covenant of GodAllahYHWH with Abraham, the blessings were to shift hand from the offspring of Isaac to the offspring of Ishmael.

With Muhammad a new era started, in my opinion.

Now no new or old ProphetMessenger of GodAllahYHWH could come for the guidance of the humanity, except in a metaphoric sense, and only the one who accepts the Canon-of-Muhammad and implements it that is Quran.

Everybody stands a witness, though my Catholic friends talk of Second Coming of Jesus, yet Jesus has, in my opinion, refused to come physically and literally for the last 2008 years. The PromisedMessiah 1838-1908, the only to come is a successor of Muhammad, so that proves my point.

Naturally others could differ with me, which they are entitled to out of their free will, no compulsion.

I respect your religion.

Thanks
Click to expand...
ok. how does that prove your point? explain please.
 
FaithofAbraham said:
But Aaron’s sons did do that for a while, unless it was just fake. So I’m still not seeing where God must be the High Priest, why not just Jesus if God puts him in that role.
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No it wasn’t fake, just imperfect. Israel and the world was not ready. It was a result of their unfaithfullness. God was still grooming them like children.

God’s covenant at Sinai is intended to fulfill His promise that through Abraham’s descendants, He will bless all the nations of the world. So Israel is being consecrated here at Sinai as a “light to the nations,” leading them in the ways of holiness

Exodus 19:5 Therefore,** if **you hearken to my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my special possession, dearer to me than all other people, though all the earth is mine.

Notice the big “if” in all of what God is saying here at Sinai God’s covenant is conditional. To experience its blessings, Israel must keep His covenant, obey its terms. If they don’t keep His covenant, they may as well be “no people” at all, their number blotted from the face of the earth. Deut 32:21

Israel swears to keep the covenant. Then Moses takes the blood from the animals sacrificed and sprinkles it on the people, calling it “the blood of the covenant which the Lord has made with you” Exodus 24:8

The covenants is sealed with a ritual meal, which is why Moses and the 70 elders sit down to eat in the presence of God Exodus 24:9-11

Well, we know what happens. The golden calf affair. Later, when Israel is in exile as a consequence of breaking the covenant, the prophets will recall this intimacy with God - eating and drinking in His very presence - and teach the people to hope for the day of a new sacred banquet, when they will once again eat in His presence on His holy mountain Isaiah 55:1-3; Proverbs 9:1-6

This hope is fulfilled in the coming of Jesus, who speaks of the Father calling a wedding banquet for His Son Mat 22:1-14 and describes the kingdom of God as a great feast Luke 14:12-24

Jesus uses these same words at His last supper, as Moses did, but adds the word “New” - telling us that by His blood shed on the Cross for many, God is making a New Covenant Mark 14:24; Mat 26:28

Exodus “prefigures” the New Covenant - it is a partial fulfillment of God’s plan. The ultimate fulfillment will come with Jesus.

Peace,

Ryan 🙂
 
ryanoneil said:
Jesus uses these same words at His last supper, as Moses did, but adds the word “New” - telling us that by His blood shed on the Cross for many, God is making a New Covenant Mark 14:24; Mat 26:28

Exodus “prefigures” the New Covenant - it is a partial fulfillment of God’s plan. The ultimate fulfillment will come with Jesus.

Peace,

Ryan 🙂
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We’re kind of going around the question of why is it really necessary for Jesus to be a God that died. You and I both agree now that his death alone does not forgive sin, we still have to pray and repent to receive forgiveness, correct?

Only I go on to explain that his death enabled him to be High Priest who takes our prayers to God so that we can receive forgiveness. It’s what he does for us after his death that brnigs forgiveness, though he would even not be in that role if not for his obedience to God and resulting martyrdom.

So I’m still not getting why Jesus would have to be God, isn’t his perfect obedience to God as a man good enough to enable him to be put in the position of High Priest who does all this for us?
 
FaithofAbraham said:
It still seems you are saying you have to sacrifice Jesus over and over for Mass, so the one-time thing isn’t actually good enough without more sacrifices. I say kind of the same except that the real sacrifice is prayer which Jesus as High Priest takes to God for us.

But again I’m not seeing where being God has anything to do with all this.
Click to expand...
Think of Jesus sacrifice like our sun. It is everpresent in the heavens.

Think of the Mass as sunrise. Everday we are re-presented with the sun.

It is not a new sun every morning. It is the same son re-presented.

We must not separate the sacrifice of our Lord on the cross from the events which surround it. The sacrifice of our Lord is inseparably linked to the Last Supper. The divine life our Lord offered and shared for our salvation in the sacrifice of Good Friday is the same offered and shared at the Last Supper. The Last Supper, the sacrifice of Good Friday, and the resurrection on Easter form one saving event. So our memorial feast makes that same event available to us, by Jesus own word, through out all of time.

Back to the analogy. God is outside of time and He has always seen Jesus sacrifice as the sun which burns in the heavens. There is no night and day, so to speak, in his eyes. We are in chronological time. The sun is made available to us every morning. We benefit from it through the passing of time. Every morning, so to speak, we offer our prayers, praise, thanksgiving, work, sufferings, and repentance, to our Lord and thereby join ourselves to His offering.

Do that make more sense?

Peace,

Ryan 🙂
 
FaithofAbraham said:
We’re kind of going around the question of why is it really necessary for Jesus to be a God that died. You and I both agree now that his death alone does not forgive sin, we still have to pray and repent to receive forgiveness, correct?

Only I go on to explain that his death enabled him to be High Priest who takes our prayers to God so that we can receive forgiveness. It’s what he does for us after his death that brnigs forgiveness, though he would even not be in that role if not for his obedience to God and resulting martyrdom.

So I’m still not getting why Jesus would have to be God, isn’t his perfect obedience to God as a man good enough to enable him to be put in the position of High Priest who does all this for us?
Click to expand...
The OT sacrifice and our repentance is always imperfect. The punishment for sin is eternal death. God wouldn’t be God if his penalty didn’t have to be paid. He doesn’t disregard his own word. Jesus (God), in his love, took that punisment upon himself for our sake. God is the only one able to pay that price for us.

His sacrifice for us is proof of his love for us. He lowered himself and took our punishment for us. He exacted the justice we deserve on himself to exonerate us. If we do not repent, God doesn’t take the punishment for us, because we’ve chosen to take it ourself.

Peace,

Ryan 🙂
 
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