Armageddon, the Beast, Appearance of Anti-Christ, Gog and Magog, End Times, rapture, Second Coming of Jesus, gathering of the Israel

[wisdomseeker]

It is good. Whatever Jesus talks about God is good. His message of Love is also good. his message of repentence is good. I have not denied any of that. And I have replied that I am for Jesus and nobody else besides him. I have read the bible but only the four gospels. That is enough for me. That is a life story of Jesus written by some persons and I like the account given there. That is all.

What Jesus said could be enough for me. No harm. It is good for you too. You may have it. But if there is anything in the bible contrary to the description or words of Quran then I need not believe that. Because that will not be binding on me. That is also because you do not believe anything of the Quran. I at least believe the many words of bible. So I am happy.

All very good. what you are saying is i am the authority on this, i decided what i should believe. I go to the Bible, i read, what i like i pick what i dont like i ignore. as simple as that. It sounds like a lot of people i know. pickers and choosers out of the word of god.

 

[wisdomseeker]

It is good. Whatever Jesus talks about God is good. His message of Love is also good. his message of repentence is good. I have not denied any of that. And I have replied that I am for Jesus and nobody else besides him. I have read the bible but only the four gospels. That is enough for me. That is a life story of Jesus written by some persons and I like the account given there. That is all.

What Jesus said could be enough for me. No harm. It is good for you too. You may have it. But if there is anything in the bible contrary to the description or words of Quran then I need not believe that. Because that will not be binding on me. That is also because you do not believe anything of the Quran. I at least believe the many words of bible. So I am happy.

How about acknowledge the disciples whom He commanded to go all over the world and preach His message, everything He taught them was to reach the ends of the earth to all people.
Planten i am sorry but eternity is a long time to spend in Hell. I dont want to take the chance. Can you please read Mark 12. Really try to understand what Jesus is saying.

 

[planten]

All very good. what you are saying is i am the authority on this, i decided what i should believe. I go to the Bible, i read, what i like i pick what i dont like i ignore. as simple as that. It sounds like a lot of people i know. pickers and choosers out of the word of god.

There are some words of God in he bible. I do not deny them. There are otherwise many words of men in the bible. Surely not all the words of God. See the four gospels. Writers are describing things. God is not speaking to any one in the bible.

I can’t do anything except to see with my eyes which are the words of God and which are not. There is no harm in that.

Of course if you think that jesus is god then he is speaking very well. But I do not have to admit that jesus or any man is a god. There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is His messenger.

 

[wisdomseeker]

There are some words of God in he bible. I do not deny them. There are otherwise many words of men in the bible. Surely not all the words of God. See the four gospels. Writers are describing things. God is not speaking to any one in the bible.

I can’t do anything except to see with my eyes which are the words of God and which are not. There is no harm in that.

Of course if you think that jesus is god then he is speaking very well. But I do not have to admit that jesus or any man is a god. There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is His messenger.

Again you are making yourself the highest authority. you rely on yourself to make the decision of what is true and what is not.
how could you possibly know which are words of man which are not?

 

[planten]

How about acknowledge the disciples whom He commanded to go all over the world and preach His message, everything He taught them was to reach the ends of the earth to all people.
Planten i am sorry but eternity is a long time to spend in Hell. I dont want to take the chance. Can you please read Mark 12. Really try to understand what Jesus is saying.

I will try to read Mark chapter 12 soon. Thanks.

 

[Zooey]

paarsurrey:

It is quite obvious that Jesus never intended to start any type of church structure since he believed he would return very shortly to rule his kingdom in person. It is also quite obvious that Jesus was wrong about when he was coming back.

Jesus never said when He is coming back. To the contrary, He said that no one knows. That is why we are to be living as though it might be, say, before I finished this sentence. We need to be ready for Him.

And Jesus **did **start a church structure. He started Christianity. He started the Catholic Church.

 

[renewaladvocate]

you said “Also, many nations follow Jesus, i think at last count it was more than 1.8 billion… many more than Mohammed.
Also, the only way Mohammed got to the top was by spreading murder, lies, having sex with children… the list goes on… and you called this man glorious… hahahhaha”

I agree with you that Mohammed was a false prophet (it is heresy to state that he is a true prophet), however the way you said it I feel was unhelpful.

God bless,

Peter

 

[FaithofAbraham]

you said “Also, many nations follow Jesus, i think at last count it was more than 1.8 billion… many more than Mohammed.
Also, the only way Mohammed got to the top was by spreading murder, lies, having sex with children… the list goes on… and you called this man glorious… hahahhaha”

Numbers 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

Numbers 31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

 

[abucs]

Both the Numbers quotes (as recorded) and Muhammad’s many ventures were evil acts were they not ?

As a Christian, i believe i can take those Numbers quotes of the Old Testament, written and copied thousands of years before Jesus was incarnated to earth, and say - God did not say that. That is not the God of love that Jesus spoke about.

As a muslim though, i would think the difficulty is that the Koran is not just an inspired book, but its very authenticity lies in the claims that its words are spoken directly from God. To reject the words in the Koran would reject the basis for the Korans claims and with the acts of Muhammad, end in a rejection of him through his actions, not just as recorded in the koran, but in contemporary Islamic history that corroborates those acts.

Through the teaching of Jesus Christ i believe i can reject both. The trouble is, because the Koran claims to be the word for word dictate of God then the Koran’s authenticity is rejected when i do that.

For me, it is an obvious choosing between love and evil and i hope, no matter what the claims, there can be no clearer choice of Jesus and love. It should be obvious, should it not ?

At the very least. Can we agree that Jesus is a big step forward from the Numbers quotes, and Muhammad is a big step backwards ? If we can’t agree on that, then there is something wrong and i’m not sure if dialogue is possible.

If the defence of Islam is to look backwards and scour the Old Testament (after not finding it in the New) looking for quotes of evil, to find it and then use that as justification for the greater evil done by the founder of the later, better, more complete Islam, then there is something wrong there with Islam, is there not FOA ?

 

[ryanoneil]

Matthew 5

3"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4
5 Blessed are they who mourn, for they will be comforted.
5
6 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the land.
6
Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be satisfied.
7
Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
8
8 Blessed are the clean of heart, for they will see God.
9
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.
10
Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11
Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you (falsely) because of me.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Both the Numbers quotes (as recorded) and Muhammad’s many ventures were evil acts were they not ?

As a Christian, i believe i can take those Numbers quotes of the Old Testament, written and copied thousands of years before Jesus was incarnated to earth, and say - God did not say that. That is not the God of love that Jesus spoke about.

So you are saying Moses was evil for ordering that?

 

[abucs]

No, i’m saying that the person who wrote the story about Moses in those lines in Numbers was not correct, to my mind.

If you like, please start a new thread on truth of texts and i will wholeheartedly contribute.

But i have asked many specific questions above FOA.
Very important questions that need to be answered.
They need to be answered if there is going to be dialogue between Christians and Moslems.
I hope, should you wish, that you will answer those important questions.

Thanks.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

No, i’m saying that the person who wrote the story about Moses in those lines in Numbers was not correct, to my mind.

If you like, please start a new thread on truth of texts and i will wholeheartedly contribute.

But i have asked many specific questions above FOA.
Very important questions that need to be answered.
They need to be answered if there is going to be dialogue between Christians and Moslems.
I hope, should you wish, that you will answer those important questions.

Thanks.

The child sex things aren’t in the Quran, and I interpret passages about fighting like this:

Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Jesus isn’t saying to kill antiChristians, he is saying to silence them with good preaching.

But back to Numbers, if you think those were false verses, then also may be any other where destruction of whole towns was ordered? How did Israel conquer the Promised Land without bloodshed?

And then, I take it you believe the Bible is fallible?

 

[abucs]

Yes, all texts must be read critically before being accepted and no text should promote evil. In that context i read all text as fallible. I think, on balance it is healthy to do so and i would like Muslims to do the same with the koran.

The conquering of the promised land by the Israelites is a fair question. To be honest, i don’t have an answer for you except to say that Jesus tells us not to kill and promote our own agenda through aggression and sin. This is the basis of faith Christians profess and would like it to be publicly reciprocated by muslims.

In your Luke example of course Jesus is telling a story about a fictional king. The likely parable suggests a comparison with God as the king who after being rejected will reject others, or put it bluntly, will destroy them.

I would love for Muslims to see parts of the koran as fictional parables but it is very difficult to see it that way. The claim is that it is the dictate of God and it is not just speaking parables and colourful language but the authorising of actual real evil acts on a grand scale.

I would love to hear how it is possible for muslims to reject the koran authorising that evil and the express condemnation of any following in those footsteps.

After all that, we still have the character of Muhammad and the question of whether such a person is a good role model to follow. and whether his teachings are from God By corroborating words and acts in each of the koran, hadith and other reputable Islamic history i find it hard to see how such a role model can be promoted. Because of this, to me, Islam is weaker not stronger.

It seems more like a cult based on ego in that Muhammad has to be promoted as delivering a better example and teaching and the reality of who he was has to be ignored in order for the myth to perpetuate.

I think at some stage reality will have to hit Islam. I think there is strong controls in countries where Islam has a presence and that is for a reason.

These controls dissallow an honest and critical look at Muhammad and in fact use the violence preached in the koran towards anyone who dares point out the truth.

If religion is not based on humility, love and truth but anger, violence and cover up - then is it any good ?

Eventually such a philosophy needs totalitarian control and absolute suppression and in todays world it will fail due to public awareness and interfaith discussion which will cause internal dissention in the islamic world. I think this is why Islam to a great extent discourages interaction with non muslims. Not because we are sinful bad people but just because we will point out that much of the basis that Islam takes for granted (and doesn’t allow discussion on) is obviously not right or correct.

I think Islam has to face its own demons that it makes for itself or be forever at war with the non muslim majority and face internal revolt.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Yes, all texts must be read critically before being accepted and no text should promote evil. In that context i read all text as fallible. I think, on balance it is healthy to do so and i would like Muslims to do the same with the koran.

…

After all that, we still have the character of Muhammad and the question of whether such a person is a good role model to follow.

So basically you are just rejecting anything in the Bible that paints a bad picture of Moses and others, but retaining things like that in Quran and Hadith for Mohammed. Maybe you should just reject all the bad things in both as fabrication and then you won’t have a problem with either book. That would be the consistent thing to do.

 

[abucs]

No, not at all FOA, i accept that there are sinful people who are central characters such as King David. I don’t have a problem with that as long as everybody recognises that as sinful.

What i do have a problem with are people who put sinful words into the mouth of God and say ‘this is what God says’.

The question of whether Moses was sinful is another issue. We are told he killed an Egyptian, according to the text, which is why he fled Egypt. If the text is correct, then that was sinful.

The Numbers quotes you gave are from an unknown author who is saying what hapenned to the Israelites and what God said to Moses. If you read the book it is always … Moses said this, Moses did that … God spoke to Moses. As far as i am aware the author nowhere says ‘hey, i am Moses’. We do not know who the writers were and how much of it was based on reliable sources. We also have no corroborating historical writings.

The Koran is different. Muslims claim that the words there come unaltered straight from God through Muhammad and being closer to us in history we have corroborating historical accounts of what happened and who was involved.

There is a central problem with the character of Muhammad and the evil words which are supposed to have come from God.

A large part of the muslim mindset is to say the words in the koran are necessarily unaltered messages from God and also that Muhammad was the greatest moral example and preacher.
Having this mindset makes people very firm in their convictions but equally puts muslims in a straightjacket regarding the words of the koran and the behaviour of their founder.

In my opinion it also forces muslims, engaging in such issues to twist their minds inventing history to try and keep that mindset consistant. I think they fail badly at that and it costs not only themselves but non muslims as well.

This is a big problem and we see the results on our TV screens.
I wish muslim people all the best but if the civilisation depends on not reviewing honestly that mindset then at some stage Islam will have major disagreements with itself and cause lots of problems.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

The Numbers quotes you gave are from an unknown author who is saying what hapenned to the Israelites and what God said to Moses. If you read the book it is always … Moses said this, Moses did that … God spoke to Moses. As far as i am aware the author nowhere says ‘hey, i am Moses’. We do not know who the writers were and how much of it was based on reliable sources. We also have no corroborating historical writings.

The Koran is different. Muslims claim that the words there come unaltered straight from God through Muhammad and being closer to us in history we have corroborating historical accounts of what happened and who was involved.

Now wait a minute, most every Christian and Muslim I know say their respective books are the infallible Word of God. There is no difference there. So what Muslims say doesn’t prevent you from removing the yucky stuff from the Quran any more than what Christians say prevents you from doing it with the Bible.

You are kind of trying to wiggle through that but I don’t think so.

 

[abucs]

FOA,

it is not a matter of whether i will say the ‘yucky’ stuff in the koran is wrong, it is a matter of whether the muslims will do that.

Will you ?

I am not interested in most Christians you know or even what you think about the Old Testament and the relationship different Christians have to it.

All of that is obviously AVOIDING the question.

Do you think the Koran is the literal word for word dictation of God, and if you do, do you then beleive in a God that instructs and directs evil actions against helpless people in the way Muhammad carried them out according to the koran ?

This question has to be addressed by muslims.

To avoid answering it, you threw the question back at me regarding a 4,000 year old quote from the old testament. I was honest and answered it. But you have still not answered the original question.

Because you wanted me to answer the same question should not have stopped you from answering it.

Now that i’ve answered it anyway, not liking my answer is still not a reason for you from not answering.

The very fact that muslims will not even address this question shows that there is something wrong with the way they view the world and it shows an obvious weakness that should be addressed.

Pretending there is no problem does not mean there is not one. Everyone else can see the problem that muslims have and they see the worldwide violence that not addressing the problem brings.

The floor is yours to answer the question.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

FOA,

it is not a matter of whether i will say the ‘yucky’ stuff in the koran is wrong, it is a matter of whether the muslims will do that.

Will you ?

I am not interested in most Christians you know or even what you think about the Old Testament and the relationship different Christians have to it.

All of that is obviously AVOIDING the question.

I don’t see anything wrong with the Quran or in Numbers, if God wanted it that way for a reason, who am I to question God? But that’s not saying it should still be this way, you have to take it in context.

So I answered and ask you again, since you are willing to toss out what you consider to be bad things like in Numbers and such to keep Moses a hero in your eys, will you do the same with the Quran? Or will you be inconsistent and say “Moses didn’t really do that but Mohammed did?”

 

[abucs]

FOA,

i am not asking you to question God.

I am asking you to question the text which suggests he is evil.

Can’t you see the big difference ?

Will you cling so blindly to the idea that certain texts are from God even if they point to him being evil ?

Why are you so convinced the Koran is true ?

Why would you prefer to think that God is evil than to even consider that even part of the Koran might not be true.

That is a very scary way to think.

Mass murder, slavery and rape is most certainly not OK because a certain book says that God wants it.

Where is your sense of right and wrong ?

It is that blind belief in a book when taken to the extreme that pardons all sorts of heinous crimes.

That idea is so unbelievably self evidently incorrect that i can hardly find the words.

Unless you retract that comment, there can be no further dialogue on that matter.

But at least you have answered the question. I had hoped your love of God would preclude him from committing evil acts, but it appears your love for the koran supercedes this.