Armageddon, the Beast, Appearance of Anti-Christ, Gog and Magog, End Times, rapture, Second Coming of Jesus, gathering of the Israel

[FaithofAbraham]

But at least you have answered the question. I had hoped your love of God would preclude him from committing evil acts, but it appears your love for the koran supercedes this.

What is evil about God wiping out unbelievers? Ever read Revelation and see what happens when Jesus returns? I’m not sure what you are asking me to reject.

And there is no rape and such in the Quran either.

 

[swariffin]

We’re kind of going around the question of why is it really necessary for Jesus to be a God that died. You and I both agree now that his death alone does not forgive sin, we still have to pray and repent to receive forgiveness, correct?

Only I go on to explain that his death enabled him to be High Priest who takes our prayers to God so that we can receive forgiveness. It’s what he does for us after his death that brnigs forgiveness, though he would even not be in that role if not for his obedience to God and resulting martyrdom.

So I’m still not getting why Jesus would have to be God, isn’t his perfect obedience to God as a man good enough to enable him to be put in the position of High Priest who does all this for us?

 

[abucs]

On the other matter i have no interest in Moses being a hero or a sinner.

I simply point out the obvious. The only evidence to the two lines in numbers you quoted, is… , the two lines in Numbers you quoted.

Did that happen ?

I don’t know. I don’t know who the author was, when Moses was supposed to have uttered the words and i have no corroborating evidence to suggest what happened.

I have no need to make him into anything, i just say the obvious, that there is not enough evidence.

On the case of Muhammad we know the history, we know the carnage. Most of what condemns Muhammad comes from a book which you and other supporters tell me was dictated by6 himself. Most of the corroborating evidence comes from contemporary Islamic written history by his supporters.

Did the rape, murder, slavery happen ? Well it did if you believe the Koran and all the corroborating evidence - yes.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Did the rape, murder, slavery happen ? Well it did if you believe the Koran and all the corroborating evidence - yes.

Let’s stick to the Quran, give me a verse and let’s see what it says. I already debunked one claim by that Quran blogger to show he twisted it grossly out of meaning.

All I’ve ever seen in the Quran is warfare, prisoners of war, and eventual trusting of some enemy women to marry them. Far more tame than the OT.

 

[abucs]

FOA,

what do you think all the slave girls were that Muhammad and his followers took. They even wrote up, sorry, God wrote up, who got how much of the loot and women.

They chopped off the heads of hundreds of Jewish men after they surrendered and took their wives.

Muhammad personally gave orders to torture one poor jew and as soon as he died took his wife as one of his own.

That is rape FOA.

One of his many wives ended up succeeding in poisening him which ultimately killed Muhammad.

They even had laws in which the women they captured, even if they were married and their husbands still alive, they could be used by the moslem men. They even wrote up rules, sorry, God wrote up rules, allowing this.

How do you think a woman would feel seeing her sons and husband killed or even tortured and her village turned upside down and then being the property of one of the victorious knights of Islam ?

She’d feel absolutely distraught and out of her mind. Then she had to go through being raped. Rape FOA - open your eyes.

And this not from critics, but from the very book you revere. The quotes are numerous. It’s not a matter of debunking FOA, it’s a matter of bu11shitting.

You said that killing unbelievers is not evil in your 5:11pm post.
They are your own words FOA. Don’t worry about defending the koran. You need to defend your own words. This is the thing. Scratch the surface and that is the mentality that emerges.

Many (not all) Muslims do a good job of pretending otherwise until you force them to come out with it.

There is a problem with the way you guys think.

It is obvious to everyone else.

OK, i’m finished with this thread.

I sincerely hope you ask yourself why exactly you believe in the Koran FOA and admit that when it comes down to it, it’s acceptance ends up allowing and promoting much evil.

For the sakes of muslims themselves i hope brave muslims face up to where the belief in an infallible koran takes them.

I hope you will be one of those brave muslims.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

FOA, what do you think all the slave girls were that Muhammad and his followers took. They even wrote up, sorry, God wrote up, who got how much of the loot and women.

I said give me verses from the Quran please, not your tabloid perception of it, if you would like me to answer something about it.

 

[swariffin]

We’re kind of going around the question of why is it really necessary for Jesus to be a God that died. You and I both agree now that his death alone does not forgive sin, we still have to pray and repent to receive forgiveness, correct?

Only I go on to explain that his death enabled him to be High Priest who takes our prayers to God so that we can receive forgiveness. It’s what he does for us after his death that brnigs forgiveness, though he would even not be in that role if not for his obedience to God and resulting martyrdom.

So I’m still not getting why Jesus would have to be God, isn’t his perfect obedience to God as a man good enough to enable him to be put in the position of High Priest who does all this for us?

Dear FoA,

Please allow me to jump back to your post. Let me put my explanation this way. Human was created in accordance to the will of God. So, when human fall into sin, the gap between human and God was formed. Did God created such gap? Off course no. There will be no way for human to create a link to God since the first sin was committed. This is the role of Jesus. By His suffering, death, and resurrection, Jesus created a bridge atop of the gap. Jesus himself is the bridge. So, the relationship between God and human which once was severed, was refurbished. You are correct to say that we must repent from our sins. By Jesus’ suffering, death and resurrection, the gap between God and human was bridged. The question is, will we chose to cross the bridge?

As human cannot eliminate the gap between ourselves and God, it is only God who can do so. God did. God sent His Own Word to become human (in Jesus) and tell human His Plans through Jesus. So, Jesus the Word of God, who is God (John 1:1) created the bridge to close the gap between Human and God. Only God can make such bridge, no human made to be God could. There can be no human made to be God could exist, for there will end-up be 2 Gods/more. It is just cannot be that way. More than just being the bridge between human and God, Jesus tenderly call all humans to cross the ready made bridge to come to God. The question is, will we chose to cross the bridge?

 

[abucs]

I don’t need to FOA. Your own words have condemned you.
I have given many quotes on the koran over the last week on the 3 or 4 threads and also links to islamic historical accounts.

I’m done.

If you say it is not evil to kill unbelievers and that God instructs evil and the koran is unfallible and who are you to question that, then …

we have no common ground.

I’m done.

 

[Reuben_J]

Let’s stick to the Quran, give me a verse and let’s see what it says. I already debunked one claim by that Quran blogger to show he twisted it grossly out of meaning.

All I’ve ever seen in the Quran is warfare, prisoners of war, and eventual trusting of some enemy women to marry them. Far more tame than the OT.

These verses are quite troublesome for us non-Muslims.

Verses 31-40 of Sura 8 discuss the perversity of the pagan Quraysh, whom the Muslims have just defeated in the Battle of Badr. They reject Muhammad’s preaching as “tales of the ancients” (v. 31) and keep the Muslims out of the Sacred Mosque in Mecca (v. 34). In verses 38-40, Allah tells Muhammad to call them to accept Islam, “and fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression [fitnah], and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do” (v. 39).

According to Ibn Abbas, Abu Al-Aliyah, Mujahid, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, Ar-Rabi bin Anas, As-Suddi, Muqatil bin Hayyan and Zayd bin Aslam, the statement that Muslims must fight until there is no more fitnah means that they must fight “so that there is no more Shirk.” Shirk is the association of partners with Allah – i.e., calling Jesus the Son of God. So this verse, although it was revealed in the aftermath of a seventh-century battle between Muslims and pagans, has a universal application: the Tafsir al-Jalalayn glosses it this way: “And fight them until sedition, idolatry, is, exists, no more and religion is all for God, alone, none other being worshipped…” Muhammad himself said: “I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah, and he who professed it was guaranteed the protection of his property and life on my behalf except for the right affairs rest with Allah.”

 

[Reuben_J]

Let’s stick to the Quran, give me a verse and let’s see what it says. I already debunked one claim by that Quran blogger to show he twisted it grossly out of meaning.

All I’ve ever seen in the Quran is warfare, prisoners of war, and eventual trusting of some enemy women to marry them. Far more tame than the OT.

Maybe you’d like to know that in the OT the incidence was a one-off thing for a specific purpose, while in the Quran, the teaching is on-going to be followed by Muslims, unless abrogated.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

These verses are quite troublesome for us non-Muslims.

Why?

ISAAC

Genesis 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

Numbers 21:2-3 And Israel vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou wilt indeed deliver this people into my hand, then I will utterly destroy their cities. And the LORD hearkened to the voice of Israel, and delivered up the Canaanites; and they utterly destroyed them and their cities: and he called the name of the place Hormah.

ISHMAEL

Genesis 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

Quran 8:38-39 Tell those who disbelieve that if they cease (from persecution of believers) that which is past will be forgiven them; but if they return (thereto) then the example of the men of old hath already gone (before them, for a warning). And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do.

Genesis 16:12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man’s hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Maybe you’d like to know that in the OT the incidence was a one-off thing for a specific purpose, while in the Quran, the teaching is on-going to be followed by Muslims, unless abrogated.

Tell that to modern Jews who use it to justify force again in reclaiming the Promised Land.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I don’t need to FOA. Your own words have condemned you.
I have given many quotes on the koran over the last week on the 3 or 4 threads and also links to islamic historical accounts.

I’m done.

If you say it is not evil to kill unbelievers and that God instructs evil and the koran is unfallible and who are you to question that, then …

we have no common ground.

I’m done.

Well I’m not going to go hunting for them or address your vague and vivid accusations, give me specific verses or you can go on about your business.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

The thing you need to realize is that there is God’s Kingdom and and Satan’s Kingdom.

God’s Kingdom wants peace but is firm about preaching Gospel and Torah.

Satan’s Kingdom is terrorists, hand chopping, pedophiles, money-grubbing fake healers, antichrists who hate Jesus, land grabbers, Crusaders, and every bit of filth that is Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

So these religions are going to be flushed down the toilet anyway when Jesus returns to bring the true religion of God. That’s the religion I really defend and care about, these three others…well, they can go to hell as far as I’m concerned, because they are largely led by Satan.

That sums up my view on scripture vs. abuse of it.

Matthew 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

 

[Reuben_J]

Tell that to modern Jews who use it to justify force again in reclaiming the Promised Land.

Yes, the Jews too.

I mentioned Muslims because we on the subject. So I guess that’s the difference with Christianity. Muslims very often have this errorneous assumption that Christians must follow the happenings in the OT. They quote OT verses when we quote ‘errant’ Quranic verses.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Yes, the Jews too.

I mentioned Muslims because we on the subject. So I guess that’s the difference with Christianity. Muslims very often have this errorneous assumption that Christians must follow the happenings in the OT. They quote OT verses when we quote ‘errant’ Quranic verses.

Christians do follow them when they support actions of Jews to reclaim Promised Land based on OT promises. You are going to have to come out and condemn land grabs as a thing of the past, not to be done anymore unless God renews the command, if you don’t want that to happen.

But as it is, Isaac had his promises, Ishmael had his, God approved both to do what they did to see them fulfilled. Maybe it is supposed to be over now, maybe not.

But the original actions to cement Judaism/Christianity for Isaac, and Islam for Ishmael, were ordained by God to keep the promises, according to each Holy Book.

 

[ryanoneil]

And Jesus can be a man and take punishment for us so he can rise to position of making atonement for us.

So this is still not getting to the point of why Jesus needs to be God to do all this.

Personally I don’t think you or any other Christian will be able to answer this head on, because I’ve searched up and down and I’ve never found any real need for Jesus to be God, just a man obedient to God so that he can be put in the position to do these things for us.

I don’t think this will answer your question directly, but I ran across these verses and started thinking about our dialog.

As Jesus was teaching in the temple area he said, "How do the scribes claim that the Messiah is the son of David? David himself, inspired by the holy Spirit, said: ‘The Lord said to my lord, “Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies under your feet.”’ David himself calls him ‘lord’; so how is he his son?" (The) great crowd heard this with delight. (Mark 12:35-37)

How do you interepret this?

I see this as Jesus saying: The scribes who think the Messiah is nothing more that David’s son (a human) and not also lord are misguided.

I also looked at Psalm 110 which Jesus is referencing. I’d like to tie that into the idea of Jesus as divine, later. I also noticed Melchizedek mentioned which we could talk about.

If you don’t mind, give me your thoughts on Mark 12:35-37, and lets go from there.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I don’t think this will answer your question directly, but I ran across these verses and started thinking about our dialog.

As Jesus was teaching in the temple area he said, "How do the scribes claim that the Messiah is the son of David? David himself, inspired by the holy Spirit, said: ‘The Lord said to my lord, “Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies under your feet.”’ David himself calls him ‘lord’; so how is he his son?" (The) great crowd heard this with delight. (Mark 12:35-37)

How do you interepret this?

I see this as Jesus saying: The scribes who think the Messiah is nothing more that David’s son (a human) and not also lord are misguided.

I also looked at Psalm 110 which Jesus is referencing. I’d like to tie that into the idea of Jesus as divine, later. I also noticed Melchizedek mentioned which we could talk about.

If you don’t mind, give me your thoughts on Mark 12:35-37, and lets go from there.

Peace,

Ryan

Mark 12:35 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the son of David?

Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Mark 12:37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.

David is just saying that his own son will be Messiah and king that rules even over him, not that he is God too. Note there is a difference between the LORD GOD and a lord like a human king.

For example, when David was king he was also Uriah’s lord:

2 Samuel 11:9 But Uriah slept at the door of the king’s house with all the servants of his lord (David), and went not down to his house.

 

[ryanoneil]

David is just saying that his own son will be Messiah and king that rules even over him, not that he is God too. Note there is a difference between the LORD GOD and a lord like a human king.

Yes I noticed the difference between Lord and lord. What is Jesus saying in addition then? There is already the assumption that the Messiah will be David’s son and King. Jesus isn’t denying this but He is saying that He is more than son of David and Messiah/King.

*While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus questioned them, saying, “What is your opinion about the Messiah? Whose son is he?” They replied, “David’s.” He said to them, “How, then, does David, inspired by the Spirit, call him ‘lord,’ saying: ‘The Lord said to my lord, “Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies under your feet”’? If David calls him ‘lord,’ **how can he be his son?” *No one was able to answer him a word, nor from that day on did anyone dare to ask him any more questions. (Mt 22:41-46)

Is Jesus refering to Himself as Son of Man/Son of God then?

For example, when David was king he was also Uriah’s lord:

2 Samuel 11:9 But Uriah slept at the door of the king’s house with all the servants of his lord (David), and went not down to his house.

Don’t you think one of the Pharisees would have answered Jesus if the answer was that simple?

Peace,

Ryan

 

[ryanoneil]

A psalm of David. The LORD says to you, my lord: “Take your throne at my righthand, while I make your enemies your footstool.” The scepter of your sovereign might the LORD will extend from Zion. The LORD says: “Rule over your enemies! Yours is princely power from the day of your birth. In holy splendor before the daystar, like the dew I begot you.” The LORD has sworn and will not waver: “Like Melchizedek you are a priest forever.” At your right hand is the Lord, who crushes kings on the day of wrath, Who, robed in splendor, judges nations, crushes heads across the wide earth, Who drinks from the brook by the wayside and thus holds high the head. (Psalm 110)

Do you think the bold could possibly be an expression for before the world began?

"The LORD begot me, the first-born of his ways, the forerunner of his prodigies of long ago; From of old I was poured forth, at the first, before the earth. (Proverb 8:22) ?

If you read all of Proverbs 8, do you think it could be refering to Jesus?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. (Jn 1:1-2)

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. (Jn 3:16)