Armageddon, the Beast, Appearance of Anti-Christ, Gog and Magog, End Times, rapture, Second Coming of Jesus, gathering of the Israel

[FaithofAbraham]

Dear FoA,

First, is your interpretation is supported by the bible? I know you as a sola scripturist believer of the bible. So, things you said must be supported by at least one verse from the bible.

Second, you admit that Paul said that One Sacrifice is not Enough. But, you argue that there can be more than one mission of the redemption of sins. In this case, as I said before, you are in contradiction with Paul. My dear brother, It is either Paul made mistakes when he wrote the letter to the Roman or you misinterpret Paul. Jesus’ sacrifice could not be twice, so the first mamzer of David and Betsheba, could not be the Messiah, i.e could not be Jesus.

The first sacrifice was to save David’s Kingdom from blasphemy of God, and thus save his own Kingdom.

2 Samuel 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

The second sacrifice was for his martyrdom of preaching about this Kingdom, and it is this second one that saves all humanity. But there had to be a Kingdom to start with, and it was in danger of being lost due to David’s sin.

So there is no contradiction with Paul.

There are a lot of verses. Like:

John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

So Jesus is saying here he came from Heaven, but not as a God who does his own will, rather as a human servant of God who does God’s will.

 

[swariffin]

The first sacrifice was to save David’s Kingdom from blasphemy of God, and thus save his own Kingdom.

2 Samuel 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

The second sacrifice was for his martyrdom of preaching about this Kingdom, and it is this second one that saves all humanity. But there had to be a Kingdom to start with, and it was in danger of being lost due to David’s sin.

So there is no contradiction with Paul.

There are a lot of verses. Like:

John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

So Jesus is saying here he came from Heaven, but not as a God who does his own will, rather as a human servant of God who does God’s will.

Dear FoA,

Your persistence is admirable. Please look at your own writing. You did mentioned “First sacrifice” and “Second sacrifice”. So, there are 2 sacrifices. Paul said only One for forever. How come 2 equals to 1?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Dear FoA,

Your persistence is admirable. Please look at your own writing. You did mentioned “First sacrifice” and “Second sacrifice”. So, there are 2 sacrifices. Paul said only One for forever. How come 2 equals to 1?

The first sacrifice was for purposes of saving David’s Kingdom. Paul is referring to the second sacrifice on the cross for all humanity, in order to bring them into the Kingdom that was saved.

 

[swariffin]

The first sacrifice was for purposes of saving David’s Kingdom. Paul is referring to the second sacrifice on the cross for all humanity, in order to bring them into the Kingdom that was saved.

So, you are saying that Paul, the student of the foremost Jewish Rabbi Gamaliel at that time, missed the first sacrifice of Jesus? and misunderstood the whole story of David? Paul was a Torah expert, and was one of the Pharisee prior to his conversion to Christianity. It was very unlikely and impossible. You need to establish a firm support for your interpretation my dear brother. Self analysis can be biased you know?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

So, you are saying that Paul, the student of the foremost Jewish Rabbi Gamaliel at that time, missed the first sacrifice of Jesus? and misunderstood the whole story of David? Paul was a Torah expert, and was one of the Pharisee prior to his conversion to Christianity. It was very unlikely and impossible.

Paul never even mentioned Mary, so of course, something is likely and possible.

Perhaps Paul was not supposed to reveal who Jesus really is, maybe it is to be sealed up until the end.

 

[swariffin]

Paul never even mentioned Mary, so of course, something is likely and possible.

Perhaps Paul was not supposed to reveal who Jesus really is, maybe it is to be sealed up until the end.

Dear FoA,

I was talking about Paul’s writing against your interpretation. I was not talking about Mary. It is a nice diversion, you know. But again, those “likely and possible” must have a link to another verse in Paul’s writing. You are a sola scriptura person, you should know that things must be written in the bible for you to believe, not just simply based on likely and possible.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Dear FoA,

I was talking about Paul’s writing against your interpretation. I was not talking about Mary. It is a nice diversion, you know. But again, those “likely and possible” must have a link to another verse in Paul’s writing. You are a sola scriptura person, you should know that things must be written in the bible for you to believe, not just simply based on likely and possible.

But you reason that Paul would have mentioned it if he knew about it, but by the same reasoning he never mentioned Mary either, so your reasoning doesn’t hold.

Fact is the Bible is almost silent as to how the flesh of Jesus came to be in Mary. Over the years I have heard:

God created some flesh out of thin air that matched David’s DNA.

God cloned Mary to create the flesh of Jesus.

God took some of Joseph’s sperm and put it in Mary’s egg.

God has His own sperm like He is a man and put it in Mary.

So no one knows better than the next. But I said almost silent. The closest we get is this:

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Look around the Bible to see what “according to the flesh” means. It means according to the ways of man, which concerning making a baby, is through sex.

What are we told about the seed of David concerning Messiah?

2 Samuel 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

The seed of David proceeded right from David’s body, his own son.

Further we are told this son will have an everlasting throne.

2 Samuel 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

Of all the kings from David, who is the only one to have an everlasting throne?

Luke 1:32-33 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

So if it is David’s own son, what better son than the innocent child who died for David’s sin?

 

[swariffin]

Dear FoA,

Paul as the student of the best Jewish Rabbi Gamaliel, could not possibly missed the idea that the Messiah had come earlier. Such idea never existed, otherwise Gamaliel as well as other Thorah experts and the Pharisse would have believed that. No one but you have the interpretation the the mamzer of David was Jesus. So, no point of bringing the idea of Mary with Paul. I was not talking about Mary. And yet, during Paul’s service, Mary was still alive and living with John. Why would Paul taking the issue about Mary?

You claim that you will never accept other’s interpretation except yours, and you argue that your interpretation is based on the bible. But 2 postings ago, you admit that your interpretation is supported by the “Likely and Possible”. And now, you throw many statements unsupported by any bible verses. All verses you throw just saying that Jesus was the decendent of David, nothing about was being the illegal child out of the illegal approach to Betsheba, and nothing about having to be resurrected twice, and nothing about making 2 sacrifices, and nothing about the need of the shadowy mission to save David from sin first, and come back again to save others.

You did mention that you have heard this for over the years. Where do you hear that from? As far as I know as a former JW and as a Catholic, and as I listen to others, your idea is not Christian, not Islam, not JW, not Mormon, not Ahmadian, not Buddhist, definitely not Hinduist, and not anything.

BTW, I am giving you 2 way of thinking. Which one makes more sense.

First, keep on believing in two sacrifices, claiming that it is from the bible. But, not a single verse of the bible support your interpretation. You are even in contradiction with Paul, whom you believe too. You are even have to introduce the “Likely and Possible” argument to support your interpretation.

And

Second, believe in **One Sacrifice for Forever **but consequently there can’t be any idea that Jesus came twice to save the world. However, this idea is inline with Paul and the rest of the bible. You can even defend this idea on the Sola Scriptura basis. And further, no need for the shaky and groundless “likely and possible” argument.

I think I can rest my case.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Dear FoA,

BTW, I am giving you 2 way of thinking. Which one makes more sense.

First, keep on believing in two sacrifices, claiming that it is from the bible. But, not a single verse of the bible support your interpretation. You are even in contradiction with Paul, whom you believe too. You are even have to introduce the “Likely and Possible” argument to support your interpretation.

There is no contradiction with Paul since Jesus did not die first on the cross. If I said he died on the cross twice both times to save humanity then you would have a case.

But he died for two different reasons as I said, first to save the kingdom, then again to save humanity and bring them into the kingdom.

Your other argument that there should be mention of it assumes they even knew about it, maybe it was a secret to them, maybe they knew but weren’t allowed to say.

2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Revelation 10:4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

So the prophets did keep some secrets.

As I said the whole thing is a mystery, no one has been able to say with any certainty exactly how Jesus got his body. So it’s not like we are told and then I’m contradicting it.

You are also not addressing what I posted.

How was Jesus made from the seed of David according to the flesh, if that implies through sex?

How does David’s son from his own body have an everlasting throne?

 

[ryanoneil]

I’m sorry I didn’t respond sooner FoA. I’ve been busy.

Solomon got a chance to have a promise like David’s, but that ended with Babylon and started ending when Solomon followed other gods.

Now David was the only one with a good promise of an everlasting throne but to keep the promise there needed to be a son straight from David to receive the promise, then David would never fail to have a son on the throne.

So God resurrected the child who suffered and died for David’s sin which is Jesus, and he received the promise straight from David. So Jesus will always have the throne and David will never fail to have a son on the throne.

That’s how the problem is solved.

So you don’t have a problem with the fact that David failed to always have a son on the throne, for centuries, before Jesus was resurrected?

Personally I don’t have a problem with that because I understand the promise differently. I see no problem with Jesus being the descendant of David and not his biological son. Jesus is also the son of God but you don’t consider him his biological son. Why not?

Take Abraham for example. He is my father although I have absolutely no blood ties with him.

*For this reason, it depends on faith, so that it may be a gift, and the promise may be guaranteed to all his descendants, not to those who only adhere to the law but to those who follow the faith of Abraham, who is the father of all of us, as it is written, “I have made you father of many nations.” He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into being what does not exist. He believed, hoping against hope, that he would become “the father of many nations,” according to what was said, “Thus shall your descendants be.” * Rom 4:16-18

Do you see what I’m getting at?

The Holy Spirit resides in a lot of people but it doesn’t make them gods. But God gave Jesus the power to be like God, he didn’t need to be born a God or deity to have it.

I agree with your first point. I disagree with the second point because the Bible and tradition says otherwise.

Except for that he is Jesus, and you know the rest of the story of what Jesus did for mankind in his adult life.

As God and man.

How does God taking punishment for man redeem man? Jesus isn’t a whipping boy.

Because sin is punishable by death. No animal sacrifice or mere man could pay that price for us. Only God could pay that price for us.

For what the law, weakened by the flesh, was powerless to do, this God has done: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for the sake of sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous decree of the law might be fulfilled in us, who live not according to the flesh but according to the spirit. (Rom 8:3-4)

*realizing that **you were ransomed **from your futile conduct, handed on by your ancestors, not with perishable things like silver or gold but **with the precious blood of Christ *as of a spotless unblemished lamb. He was known before the foundation of the world but revealed in the final time for you, who through him believe in God who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. Since you have purified yourselves by obedience to the truth for sincere mutual love, love one another intensely from a (pure) heart. You have been born anew, not from perishable but from imperishable seed, through the living and abiding word of God, for: “All flesh is like grass, and all its glory like the flower of the field; the grass withers, and the flower wilts; but the word of the Lord remains forever.” This is the word that has been proclaimed to you.

Jesus IS the word of God who is God.

What redeems man reminds us of Sodom, is there any good man here to justify not destroying all of them? So Jesus was that man, and then he gets the job of teaching us how to act, and also how to repent when we act badly. And then as High Priest he takes our sin offerings to God to make atonement for us. And he judges us, rules over us, and destroys Satan when he is done separating sheep from goats.

So Jesus does a lot of things to save us, but there is no reason for him to be born a God to do it. His death was a martyrdom for being obedient to God, and it is that obedience that put him in the position of our savior, he is a good man for God. And then all the saints and martyrs besides him are made judges to rule with him.

So yes in a way he suffered and died for our sins, but his death alone doesn’t save us, it is his obedience to God as a man that really saves us.

You make a lot of accurate observations but you are still missing the true identity of Jesus.

Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus, Who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped. Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross. Because of this, God greatly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Phil 2:5-11)

God Bless and Peace,

Ryan

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I’m sorry I didn’t respond sooner FoA. I’ve been busy.

So you don’t have a problem with the fact that David failed to always have a son on the throne, for centuries, before Jesus was resurrected?

No since the promise was for his own son to have an everlasting throne that never fell, and Jesus being his own son has that. So time doesn’t matter, but skipping generations without a throne does. With Jesus as his own son no generations are skipped.

2 Samuel 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

Here is another issue, David put Solomon on the throne while he was still alive, because Bathsheba asked him to:

1 Kings 1:20-21 And thou, my lord, O king, the eyes of all Israel are upon thee, that thou shouldest tell them who shall sit on the throne of my lord the king after him. Otherwise it shall come to pass, when my lord the king shall sleep with his fathers, that I and my son Solomon shall be counted offenders.

1 Kings 1:44-46 And the king hath sent with him Zadok the priest, and Nathan the prophet, and Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, and the Cherethites, and the Pelethites, and they have caused him to ride upon the king’s mule: And Zadok the priest and Nathan the prophet have anointed him king in Gihon: and they are come up from thence rejoicing, so that the city rang again. This is the noise that ye have heard. And also Solomon sitteth on the throne of the kingdom.

But the promise says that God will put his son on the throne after David is dead:

2 Samuel 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

Personally I don’t have a problem with that because I understand the promise differently. I see no problem with Jesus being the descendant of David and not his biological son. Jesus is also the son of God but you don’t consider him his biological son. Why not?

Because God is not a man that has sperm.

Take Abraham for example. He is my father although I have absolutely no blood ties with him.

Do you see what I’m getting at?

That’s the relationship we can have with God, as does Jesus, but Jesus is made from the seed of David according to the flesh.

Because sin is punishable by death. No animal sacrifice or mere man could pay that price for us. Only God could pay that price for us.

Why can’t a mere man do this if he is the best of all men? Why couldn’t a good human leader pay the price for his people?

If the price for sin calls for death of men, how does the death of God satisfy that?

 

[ryanoneil]

Why can’t a mere man do this if he is the best of all men?

Why can’t a mere lamb do this if it is the best unblemished lamb, or turtle dove, or grain offering?

Why couldn’t a good human leader pay the price for his people?

Because God is the true leader of his people! Not a man!

‘Not so, but a king must rule us,’ even though the LORD your God is your king. . . Thus you will see and understand how greatly the LORD is displeased that you have asked for a king. . . Pray to the LORD your God for us, your servants, that we may not die for having added to all our other sins the evil of asking for a king." (1 Sam 12:12-20)

If the price for sin calls for death of men, how does the death of God satisfy that?

By His love, God has taken our punishment on himself. By dying he destroyed our death and by rising he restored our life. He made our flesh his flesh to redeem us. God planned on personally redeeming us before the creation of the world.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Why can’t a mere lamb do this if it is the best unblemished lamb, or turtle dove, or grain offering?

Because an animal can’t prove its obedience to the death as a martyr of God, in order to be made Messiah who judges us not guilty of sin if we go through him as High Priest when we make our sacrifices of prayer to God.

The real sacrifice that saves us is our repentance of sin either here or in purgatory, if we don’t repent and are judged by Jesus of having done so, or if we try to push past him as priest to get into the Holy of Holies, we die in our sins.

So it’s all a little more complicated than making Jesus the perfect whipping boy.

Because God is the true leader of his people! Not a man!

But Jesus is also fully human according to Catholics, so what’s the difference is if he is JUST fully human and simply given that power by God, which is exactly what Jesus said anyway.

John 5:26-27 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Rather than a little man-God who still needs that power to lead from a bigger God which is not monotheism but polytheism. And serves no clear purpose anyway to make him a God. Which brings us to…

By His love, God has taken our punishment on himself. By dying he destroyed our death and by rising he restored our life. He made our flesh his flesh to redeem us. God planned on personally redeeming us before the creation of the world.

I know what the doctrine is, but what specific purpose would it serve for God die. What does all that mean, made our flesh His flesh, how does that save us.

Instead of what I say, Jesus was just a good man who was obedient to God, proving that we are all capable of the same obedience, and worthy of saving.

It’s like if you start going through a barrel of apples and find only rotten ones, do you throw them all out or keep looking, then if you find a good one, maybe there are other good ones worth saving. Jesus was that firstfruits of man, the first one found that gives hope to save others.

I think this explains it better than saying he needed to be God.

 

[ryanoneil]

But Jesus is also fully human according to Catholics, so what’s the difference is if he is JUST fully human and simply given that power by God, which is exactly what Jesus said anyway.

John 5:26-27 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Rather than a little man-God who still needs that power to lead from a bigger God which is not monotheism but polytheism. And serves no clear purpose anyway to make him a God. Which brings us to…

There is only one God! Polytheism is fiction!

*Turn to me and be safe, all you ends of the earth, for I am God; there is no other! By myself I swear, uttering my just decree and my unalterable word: To me every knee shall bend; by me every tongue shall swear, Saying, “Only in the LORD are just deeds and power. Before him in shame shall come all who vent their anger against him. In the LORD shall be the vindication and the glory of all the descendants of Israel.” *(Isaiah 45:22-25)

Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus, Who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped. Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross. Because of this, God greatly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Phil 2:5-11)

*In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race; * (John 1:1-4)

He was in the world, and the world came to be through him, but the world did not know him. He came to what was his own, but his own people did not accept him. (John 1:10-11)

And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For in him were created all things in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things were created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. He is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he himself might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile all things for him, making peace by the blood of his cross (through him), whether those on earth or those in heaven. (Col 1:15-20)

Peace,

Ryan

 

[ryanoneil]

I know what the doctrine is, but what specific purpose would it serve for God die. What does all that mean, made our flesh His flesh, how does that save us.

Instead of what I say, Jesus was just a good man who was obedient to God, proving that we are all capable of the same obedience, and worthy of saving.

It’s like if you start going through a barrel of apples and find only rotten ones, do you throw them all out or keep looking, then if you find a good one, maybe there are other good ones worth saving. Jesus was that firstfruits of man, the first one found that gives hope to save others.

I think this explains it better than saying he needed to be God.

How can you know the doctrine if you don’t know why God died for us?

Out of love God took the punishment of our sin, which is death, upon himself. In order for God to be true to his word, the punishment had to be paid. The almight God with out a body cannot die. So He took our punishment by taking a human body, and placing our punishment on himself. Then by rising from the dead, in a human body for all eternity, he made it possible for us to the same.

For this reason, when he came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; holocausts and sin offerings you took no delight in. Then I said, ‘As is written of me in the scroll, Behold, I come to do your will, O God.’” First he says, “Sacrifices and offerings, holocausts and sin offerings, you neither desired nor delighted in.” These are offered according to the law. Then he says, “Behold, I come to do your will.” He takes away the first to establish the second.* By this “will,” we have been consecrated through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all**.* (Hebrews 10:5-7)

Thus Jesus fulfills:

The days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers the day I took them by the hand to lead them forth from the land of Egypt; for they broke my covenant and I had to show myself their master, says the LORD. But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD. I will place my law within them, and write it upon their hearts; I will be their God, and they shall be my people. No longer will they have need to teach their friends and kinsmen how to know the LORD. All, from least to greatest, shall know me, says the LORD, for I will forgive their evildoing and remember their sin no more. (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

Notice God said He would make a new covenant. And who is the mediator? Jesus who is God himself

And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood. (Luke 22:20)

Peace,

Ryan

 

[FaithofAbraham]

How can you know the doctrine if you don’t know why God died for us?

Out of love God took the punishment of our sin, which is death, upon himself. In order for God to be true to his word, the punishment had to be paid. The almight God with out a body cannot die. So He took our punishment by taking a human body, and placing our punishment on himself. Then by rising from the dead, in a human body for all eternity, he made it possible for us to the same.

If God is all-powerful…

Do you believe God has the power to tune into your thoughts and feelings and experience everything you do, including die with you if He wants?

Do you believe that before Jesus was here, God had the power to raise other people from the dead and allow them to live forever?

Notice God said He would make a new covenant. And who is the mediator? Jesus who is God himself.

Actually it says Jesus is man and mediator, not God and mediator.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

 

[FaithofAbraham]

There is only one God! Polytheism is fiction!

Actual Trinity is 2 fully God persons + 1 fully God/fully man person which isn’t just only one God but also part man.

Not the one fully God of monotheism.

 

[ryanoneil]

If God is all-powerful…

Do you believe God has the power to tune into your thoughts and feelings and experience everything you do, including die with you if He wants?

Do you believe that before Jesus was here, God had the power to raise other people from the dead and allow them to live forever?

Yes of course. God can do as He wills.

Do you believe that God has the power to come to earth as a human being?

Actually it says Jesus is man and mediator, not God and mediator.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

It doesn’t say Jesus is not God. It says “the man Christ Jesus”, which is true.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[swariffin]

There is no contradiction with Paul since Jesus did not die first on the cross. If I said he died on the cross twice both times to save humanity then you would have a case.

But he died for two different reasons as I said, first to save the kingdom, then again to save humanity and bring them into the kingdom.

Your other argument that there should be mention of it assumes they even knew about it, maybe it was a secret to them, maybe they knew but weren’t allowed to say.

2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Revelation 10:4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

So the prophets did keep some secrets.

As I said the whole thing is a mystery, no one has been able to say with any certainty exactly how Jesus got his body. So it’s not like we are told and then I’m contradicting it.

You are also not addressing what I posted.

How was Jesus made from the seed of David according to the flesh, if that implies through sex?

How does David’s son from his own body have an everlasting throne?

Dear FoA,

When Paul wrote One Sacrifice For All, the key point in Sacrifice, not the manner of death. You said yourself that Jesus made two sacrifices (one to save David and later comeback again to save the rest of the world). You are still in contradiction. You can not create self-arguments other that what it is from the bible. You are a sola scripturist, remember that.

What do you mean “maybe”? You cannot based your arguments based on “maybe”. Who knows that you are maybe wrong rather than saying others are wrong. The possibility of maybe you are in error is there. It is the consequency of basing your arguments on “maybe”.

2Corinthian 12:4 does not say anything about Jesus coming to the world twice. Even Paul did not talk about Jesus in that verse. He talked about Christ’s followers, not Christ. It is a big difference. You are going to far to take this verse as a basis of your argument of Jesus having to sacrifice twice.

I did not talking anything about How Jesus got his body. I was talking about How Many Times That Jesus Must Make His Sacrifice. You are going away from what I am asking you.

Jesus is the seed of David has nothing to do with actual sexual relationship. You are the seed of your grandfather, does it mean that your grandfather has to have sex with your mother? The Israelites say they are the seeds of Abraham. Does it means that Abraham has to have sex with each of their mothers? What a strange interpretation.

By Jesus reigns over death by His resurrection, Jesus has reclaim the throne of David as the King of the world. His throne was confirmed by John in the Revelation. You know that. When David became the King of the Israelite, people bow to him but not necessarily the angels. When Jesus became the King of the World, all people including the angels bow to him and said “Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord, the all-powerful God”. That is the same thing we say as the Catholics to Jesus in our mass. And this throne of Jesus will have no end.

 

[ryanoneil]

Actual Trinity is 2 fully God persons + 1 fully God/fully man person which isn’t just only one God but also part man.

Not the one fully God of monotheism.

Believe what you will FoA. I’m sure you’ve heard all the anologies before, trying to explain the trinity, so it won’t bother making you listen to them again.

A person either comes to believe or not.

Do you know what the first Christians would say when people scoffed at the divinity of Jesus?

They would say Jesus either spoke the truth or not. He was either God, or a liar, or a lunatic.

Please ponder that and give it some real thought!

Peace,

Ryan