Armed citizens

[FightingFat]

That if a protestant quoted a passage from the Bible at you out of context you would dismiss his opinion. The Catechism is an organic synthesis of faith. Catholicism is about learning the whole faith and the interconnected mystery of our belief.

 

[mgrobertson79]

That if a protestant quoted a passage from the Bible at you out of context you would dismiss his opinion. The Catechism is an organic synthesis of faith. Catholicism is about learning the whole faith and the interconnected mystery of our belief.

Are you trying to say we do not have a right to defend ourselves, at whatever cost?

 

[FightingFat]

No, I don’t think I even intimated that.

I think that we should be very careful in extolling the virtues of owning weapons designed to kill people.

 

[mgrobertson79]

No, I don’t think I even intimated that.

I think that we should be very careful in extolling the virtues of owning weapons designed to kill people.

Firearms are not made to kill people. Produce a source that says the only purpose of firearms is to kill people? You can’t, I’m looking for that now. It isn’t there. The muslims introduced the firearm to Europe in the 7th century and it reshaped war. Yes, it was then, but how do we protect ourselves from those who invented the weapon itself. At least in America we actually have rights, and are willing to fight to protect and defend those rights from aggressors, both foreign and domestic.

 

[vern_humphrey]

That if a protestant quoted a passage from the Bible at you out of context you would dismiss his opinion. The Catechism is an organic synthesis of faith. Catholicism is about learning the whole faith and the interconnected mystery of our belief.

What makes you so much smarter than everyone else?

 

[FightingFat]

What makes you so much smarter than everyone else?

It’s genetic Vern. :coffeeread:

mgrobertson79:

Firearms are not made to kill people. Produce a source that says the only purpose of firearms is to kill people? You can’t, I’m looking for that now. It isn’t there. The muslims introduced the firearm to Europe in the 7th century and it reshaped war. Yes, it was then, but how do we protect ourselves from those who invented the weapon itself. At least in America we actually have rights, and are willing to fight to protect and defend those rights from aggressors, both foreign and domestic.

You can attempt to justify it however you like (in fact, it almost seems you half convince yourself of my argument part way through this post ) but the fact remains; you hold a gun, you’re more likely to use it to end someone else’s life.

Now I’m not saying you can’t do that. I’m just saying that for me, it does not compute with my Catholic programming.

 

[mgrobertson79]

It’s genetic Vern. :coffeeread:

You can attempt to justify it however you like (in fact, it almost seems you half convince yourself of my argument part way through this post ) but the fact remains; you hold a gun, you’re more likely to use it to end someone else’s life.

Now I’m not saying you can’t do that. I’m just saying that for me, it does not compute with my Catholic programming.

This is insane. I do hold a gun, I own a Sig P229 .40 S&W, I have never once shot said gun off the range. I have pulled it from it’s holster once and then did not pull the trigger. You may kill someone intentionally if you held or owned a gun, but not likely the rest of us. Gun control doesn’t affect the criminal element, it only affects law abiding citizens. There are some 80,000,000 guns in the US in civilian hands, only 20,000 deaths or so attributed to guns. There are 40,000+ deaths attributed to automobiles. Should we ban automobiles and say they are designed to kill people. Just yesterday a little girl was run over by a car here, why not further restrict cars.

 

[vern_humphrey]

It’s genetic Vern. :coffeeread:

They have an in utero treatment for that nowadays.

You can attempt to justify it however you like (in fact, it almost seems you half convince yourself of my argument part way through this post ) but the fact remains; you hold a gun, you’re more likely to use it to end someone else’s life.

Now I’m not saying you can’t do that. I’m just saying that for me, it does not compute with my Catholic programming.

But does that justify you attempting to deny the rest of us what we may need to save our lives or those of others?

 

[Black_Jaque]

Now I’m not saying you can’t do that. I’m just saying that for me, it does not compute with my Catholic programming.

Perhaps this is because you project your own thoughts and beliefs onto others. You imagine yourself holding a gun and imagine that if wielding this awesome power you would get warped and use it for sinful purposes. Therefore since you imagine yourself using a gun for sinful purposes, you project this onto everyone else.

For the rest of us who possess the self-discipline of knowing when NOT to use a firearm - we insist on protecting our right to own one.

 

[rstegeman]

I’m still confused on your position on this. Were the Allied forces justified in fighting against the Axis powers? If so, why is that okay but it is not ok to defend your family against harm using whatever means necessary (taking guns out of the picture for the moment)?

Again, I’m not trying to start a fight, just a calm debate. I have enjoyed this thread because I struggle myself with the whole idea of “justified” violence and trying to live like Christ. I know the CCC says it’s ok, and I will always accept what the Church teaches. That said, I would still like to reconcile the concept withing myself so that I can fully understand and defend the Church’s position.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I’m still confused on your position on this. Were the Allied forces justified in fighting against the Axis powers? If so, why is that okay but it is not ok to defend your family against harm using whatever means necessary (taking guns out of the picture for the moment)?

Again, I’m not trying to start a fight, just a calm debate. I have enjoyed this thread because I struggle myself with the whole idea of “justified” violence and trying to live like Christ. I know the CCC says it’s ok, and I will always accept what the Church teaches. That said, I would still like to reconcile the concept withing myself so that I can fully understand and defend the Church’s position.

The Catechism explains it beautifully:

2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one’s own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:

If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one’s own life than of another’s.

God gave you life, and expects you to cherish and protect what he gave you.

 

[Black_Jaque]

restegeman,

Have you read the Just War Theory? Those same things could likely apply to any self defense situation.

For example: say you are being overrun by armed thugs and there is no possible way you’ll be able to stop them. There is just too many of them, they are motivated to take loss of life, and you don’t have enough ammo/firepower. You KNOW you’re gonna die. It would be illigitimate to kill any of them in so-called self-defense because there is “no reasonable hope for success”. You would simply cause more deaths, and not save your own.

Or, say you are a single man and you just walked out of the confessional after having given the most complete confession ever. You are approached and your life threatened. It may in fact be best to accept death, because “the damage inflicted by your self-defense could be worse” than if you accepted death. The reason being that you are fairly certain of your salvation, whereas your attacker would likely suffer eternal Hell if you were to kill him then and there. Plus, it’s possible that the attacker is a father of dependent children (I know, I know, but this is hypothetical to illustrate how one applies the Just War Doctrine). Or perhaps more realistically, if a mob member was about to kill you, and instead you killed him. You would then have the entire mob after you and your family.

Whenever you address a self-defense situation, always weigh the evidence in light of eternal salvation. Christ could die because He knew He wouldn’t go to Hell. If he killed his attackers He knew they would go to Hell. However, maybe some of them would change their minds if He let himself be killed, then rise from the dead.

Also, there were times when Jesus was cornered and about to be stoned to death. He slipped away in their midst. Now, Christ had some non-violent weapons at His disposal that we don’t. He was supernatural, and I suspect that His slipping away was a trick akin to His walking on water.

So, if you have the option to “slip away” always take it.

 

[FightingFat]

Should we ban automobiles and say they are designed to kill people. Just yesterday a little girl was run over by a car here, why not further restrict cars.

It seems fairly obvious to me that automobiles are designed primarily as a form of transport that if misused, may result in fatalities. A gun is a weapon that if misused, may result in survival!

 

[FightingFat]

They have an in utero treatment for that nowadays.

That’s nice, thanks.

But does that justify you attempting to deny the rest of us what we may need to save our lives or those of others?

Well, you’ve kind of re-constructed my argument there to make a point and mis-represented me in the process. I’m clearly saying that I could not, and would not deny anyone anything, after all, God gave us all the freedom to choose. Who am I to remove that right?

I am saying that as a Catholic Christian, I think we should leave law enforcement to the assigned authorities and concentrate on loving our neighbour as Jesus taught us.

I think we would achieve more if we did that and I think others would see we are followers of Christ- it would be demonstrated for all to see through our love.

Peace.

 

[mary_bobo]

Are you trying to say we do not have a right to defend ourselves, at whatever cost?

I read these posts and think this is exactly what he is saying.

 

[Sir_Knight]

The trouble is as Catholics, we should understand that God’s greatest work was done through surrender, through frailty, through love. Our greatest heros are people like Mother Teresa. We cry out against crimes like abortion. How are we to be heard if our philosophy pro-life is not consistant? If not every life is important? If some life is dispensible???

And because every life is important, steps must be taken to protect it from those who would wish to harm the innocent. To not defend a innocent individual because we may harm a guilty individual who intends to cause harm against an innocent individual, is an injustice IMHO.

And while Mother Teresa is a “great hero” of our faith, the Catholic Church equally honors SAINT Gabriel Possenti, whose marksmanship and proficiency with handguns single-handedly saved the village of Isola, Italy from a band of 20 terrorists in 1860 …

http://www.possentisociety.com/images/shot_big.jpg

 

[Black_Jaque]

I am saying that as a Catholic Christian, I think we should leave law enforcement to the assigned authorities and concentrate on loving our neighbour as Jesus taught us.

Then as a Catholic Christian you should be able to understand that the Family is the smallest form of government. And that fathers and mothers are the assigned authorities within the realm of the family.

And teachers are the assigned authority in a classroom.

And scoutmasters are the assigned authority in a Troop.

And a CEO is the assigned authority in a company. . .

 

[FightingFat]

the Catholic Church equally honors SAINT Gabriel Possenti, whose marksmanship and proficiency with handguns single-handedly saved the village of Isola, Italy from a band of 20 terrorists in 1860 …

Equally honours? I’d never heard of him until I came here and had him thrown at me in a debate like this one.

 

[FightingFat]

Then as a Catholic Christian you should be able to understand that the Family is the smallest form of government. And that fathers and mothers are the assigned authorities within the realm of the family.

And teachers are the assigned authority in a classroom.

And scoutmasters are the assigned authority in a Troop.

And a CEO is the assigned authority in a company. . .

Well I’m a father so --check. I’m a Catechist, does that count for teacher? In any case I was a student so I get that. I was a scout master for several years and I’m a CEO of four companies, so I have a fair idea of the roles you are talking about. Still, I don’t feel the need for gun ownership in order for me to carry out any of those roles.
I’m also a bit of martial artist, I’m more than capable of defending myself and others. I am prepared to do all that is necessary in defence of my family and of my neighbour-- and I have done so. I don’t carry a gun and I don’t think it would be appropriate for me to do so.

 

[Sir_Knight]

the fact remains; you hold a gun, you’re more likely to use it to end someone else’s life.

During the past quarter century I have held dozens of guns in my hands hundreds (if not, thousands of times) and I never killed anyone nor did I even attempt to kill anyone. As a matter of fact, I never even shot anyone or even had a desire to shoot anyone. Thus, based on a quarter century of personal experience, I have to strong disagree with your statement.

Now I’m not saying you can’t do that. I’m just saying that for me, it does not compute with my Catholic programming.

Neither does FAILING to fulfill our GRAVE DUTY to protect ourselves from harm “compute” with our “Catholic Programming”.