Arms dealers are Judas of today says Pope during Mass for refugees

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Actually, I was trying to suggest that Americans are collectively guilty for the Pentagon’s crimes… And I do apologize, by the way, if I’m coming across as harsh toward you individually, because that’s not my intention. A
Then what was your intention?

Sure, people view the Pentagon as some faceless being, but it’s made up of people, such as the Marines up the road from me at their base, or the folks I work with every day.

You can’t say “You group of people are murderers, but not on an individual level.” Don’t work that way.

Also, the US is the largest arms dealer by value because most of what was sell is highly expensive equipment like F-15s, F-35s, and Aegis Combat Systems.

But when you look at the small arms being used in all the dirty wars it’s mostly AK variants (former Soviet and China), G3s (Germany), and FALs (Belgium and South Africa).
 
But no one ever said living in a secular world like ours, as a christian, is supposed to be easy or comfortable…in fact, I think its actually the opposite, but sadly, many people ‘settle’ and go along with the flow so their lives are not impacted to an extreme degree.
Well, how much time have you spent in jail for not paying your taxes?
 
Then what was your intention?

Sure, people view the Pentagon as some faceless being, but it’s made up of people, such as the Marines up the road from me at their base, or the folks I work with every day.

You can’t say “You group of people are murderers, but not on an individual level.” Don’t work that way.

Also, the US is the largest arms dealer by value because most of what was sell is highly expensive equipment like F-15s, F-35s, and Aegis Combat Systems.

But when you look at the small arms being used in all the dirty wars it’s mostly AK variants (former Soviet and China), G3s (Germany), and FALs (Belgium and South Africa).
But actually it does work that way, which is precisely why Pope Francis speaks on a meta level when discussing this subject. The U.S. Department of Defense kills people all over the world, but it’s a huge, huge network of people, and so therefore no single individual is to blame for what the group does. It’s this same set-up which makes DoD so effective, in fact, and similar setups have been devised by the Air Force to facilitate drone killings for this reason. Long-distance, impersonal killing thus becomes psychologically easy. It’s comparable to a large corporation which has been caught doing something illegal: the corporation receives a fine and a legal conviction, but because the blame is spread among a large number of people no one individual really feels anything. The CEO might step down or whatever, but then it’s back to business-as-usual. This is how the Pentagon operates, as well, and in fact this is how the entire United States works. (The Nick Turse book I linked to twice does a good job explaining this.) So what exactly is the Pope supposed to say? Is he going to bluntly spell out the plain truth and say that each and every American bears responsibility for the arms trade? No, because he’s gentler than that, and he doesn’t want alienate half of the North American continent by spelling it out. Also, bear in mind that Francis can hardly even open his mouth without offending some group of people somewhere. And that’s not because he says dumb things, that’s because he says honest things. So that was my only real intention. I was trying to defend Francis because I believe he’s right. Bear in mind, too, that I have a relative who used to work in the highest echelons of the Pentagon, I have several family members who worked for many decades in the Pentagon-connected aerospace industry in Southern California, and also in White Sands and places like that, I have other relatives who have worked at Nasa for decades, and also a couple of my closest friends are engineers at Boeing here in Seattle. All of these individuals are exceptionally good people, but it doesn’t change the fact that they participate in something essentially Satanic. Humans are contradictory beings who are able to easily ignore what they don’t want to think about, and like Tom said, the rest of us have to pay our taxes or else we go to prison. Will God forgive us? Who knows. We’re all implicated in this.
 
…similar setups have been devised by the Air Force to facilitate drone killings for this reason. Long-distance, impersonal killing thus becomes psychologically easy. .
True. i do think that there is something unethical about killing with drones. But also, I think that the use of the atom bomb, which killed thousands of innocent children was immoral. But Americans have a gun to their heads. If you don’t pay your taxes, you will go to jail. A father has responsibilities to support his family. If he refuses to pay his taxes, then his family will suffer as he is rotting behind bars in the federal penitentiary.
 
True. i do think that there is something unethical about killing with drones. But also, I think that the use of the atom bomb, which killed thousands of innocent children was immoral. But Americans have a gun to their heads. If you don’t pay your taxes, you will go to jail. A father has responsibilities to support his family. If he refuses to pay his taxes, then his family will suffer as he is rotting behind bars in the federal penitentiary.
And plus, when he gets outs of prison he’s just going to have to begin paying taxes anyway, or else he’s immediately going right back.

No, I completely agree. Feeling guilty for paying taxes is a little bit like being made to feel guilty over wasting food. “Finish your plate, don’t you know there are starving kids in Africa?” is a completely bogus argument, but that doesn’t mean it’s not a good idea to discuss food subsidies and waste and that entire subject. Individuals have no more power to affect that than they do to change the fact that a mind-blowing number of consumer goods we all buy and use are directly connected to the American war apparatus. And even beyond all that, the Pentagon itself certainly isn’t all bad. When it originated during WWII it certainly wasn’t a bad thing, and likewise when I look at endless numbers of terrifying high-resolution photos of the Chinese Air Force and Army, I’m definitely glad that we have a strong military defense.🤷
 
… when I look at endless numbers of terrifying high-resolution photos of the Chinese Air Force and Army, I’m definitely glad that we have a strong military defense.🤷
The arms race is not the way to go, IMHO. What is needed is emphasis on how to avoid war and achieve peace through diplomacy.
 
Well, how much time have you spent in jail for not paying your taxes?
None, but I do recognize Im sort of allowing things to go on that I should not really be doing…but I like my freedom, so I set a little bit of my beliefs aside for the sake of that freedom.

I believe Jesus referred to people like me as ‘lukewarm’, calling themselves christians, abiding by some rules, but when it gets a bit too tough or uncomfortable, I give in.

I am guilty of this, but many others are too…its just the world we live in today…its no coincidence its VERY tough to be a true christian.
 
But actually it does work that way, which is precisely why Pope Francis speaks on a meta level when discussing this subject. The U.S. Department of Defense kills people all over the world, but it’s a huge, huge network of people, and so therefore no single individual is to blame for what the group does. It’s this same set-up which makes DoD so effective, in fact, and similar setups have been devised by the Air Force to facilitate drone killings for this reason. Long-distance, impersonal killing thus becomes psychologically easy. It’s comparable to a large corporation which has been caught doing something illegal: the corporation receives a fine and a legal conviction, but because the blame is spread among a large number of people no one individual really feels anything. The CEO might step down or whatever, but then it’s back to business-as-usual. This is how the Pentagon operates, as well, and in fact this is how the entire United States works. (The Nick Turse book I linked to twice does a good job explaining this.) So what exactly is the Pope supposed to say? Is he going to bluntly spell out the plain truth and say that each and every American bears responsibility for the arms trade? No, because he’s gentler than that, and he doesn’t want alienate half of the North American continent by spelling it out. Also, bear in mind that Francis can hardly even open his mouth without offending some group of people somewhere. And that’s not because he says dumb things, that’s because he says honest things. So that was my only real intention. I was trying to defend Francis because I believe he’s right. Bear in mind, too, that I have a relative who used to work in the highest echelons of the Pentagon, I have several family members who worked for many decades in the Pentagon-connected aerospace industry in Southern California, and also in White Sands and places like that, I have other relatives who have worked at Nasa for decades, and also a couple of my closest friends are engineers at Boeing here in Seattle. All of these individuals are exceptionally good people, but it doesn’t change the fact that they participate in something essentially Satanic. Humans are contradictory beings who are able to easily ignore what they don’t want to think about, and like Tom said, the rest of us have to pay our taxes or else we go to prison. Will God forgive us? Who knows. We’re all implicated in this.
So we’re going to hell for paying taxes which support the military?

I have worked in the aerospace/defense industry so does this mean I am Satanic?
 
So we’re going to hell for paying taxes which support the military?

I have worked in the aerospace/defense industry so does this mean I am Satanic?
I think that nothing is likely to ever change in the world until people begin feeling deep personal responsibility for the state of things.

It’s easy to ignore problems we have absolutely nothing to do with, but most people don’t want to cause any harm themselves.

So why shouldn’t we look honestly at what we’re participating in?

I’m guilty of these sorts of things, too, by the way.🤷
 
I think that nothing is likely to ever change in the world until people begin feeling deep personal responsibility for the state of things.

It’s easy to ignore problems we have absolutely nothing to do with, but most people don’t want to cause any harm themselves.

So why shouldn’t we look honestly at what we’re participating in?

I’m guilty of these sorts of things, too, by the way.🤷
Looking is not going to change things. More is needed. I have participated in anti-war and pro-peace demonstrations. What do you suggest that people do to promote peace?
 
I think that nothing is likely to ever change in the world until people begin feeling deep personal responsibility for the state of things.

It’s easy to ignore problems we have absolutely nothing to do with, but most people don’t want to cause any harm themselves.

So why shouldn’t we look honestly at what we’re participating in?

I’m guilty of these sorts of things, too, by the way.🤷
What are the concrete actions or steps that we need to do to take personal responsibility? Stop paying taxes?
 
What are the concrete actions or steps that we need to do to take personal responsibility? Stop paying taxes?
Well, if we knew for a fact some of our tax money went towards something immoral or against Gods laws…yes, we probably should resist paying, even if it meant imprisonment.

Somehow I dont think God would allow us to ‘let certain laws/ obligations slide’ because to do the right thing, may effect our quality of life.

After all, he did say many christians would face arrest, imprisonment, torture, death, etc due to his name, but if we side with secular authority on these things, of course we will not face any negative actions here on earth.
 
That is an interesting take on the pope’s words that we are now morally obligated to NOT pay taxes.🙂
 
What are the concrete actions or steps that we need to do to take personal responsibility? Stop paying taxes?
No, as far as boycotting the arms industry and not participating in the arms industry, nothing whatsoever can be done. I mean, besides leaving the country altogether. Otherwise, if we live in America, we are all each and every one of us actively supporting arms dealers. When I mentioned taking responsibility, I only meant that we should be clearly aware of the position we’re in, and we should clearly grasp our unwitting involvement in what the Pope decried during his mass for war refugees. I originally mentioned it because I thought it was something Americans should be aware of, not because I was trying to demoralize people, which is what I fear I’ve done. It will sound presumptuous, but I think I have a vague glimmer of why the Pope always discusses this area in a slightly abstract way. To be frank, I kind of regret even starting this thread.😦

amazon.com/The-Complex-Military-Everyday-American/dp/0805089195

tomdispatch.com/post/174923
 
Looking is not going to change things. More is needed. I have participated in anti-war and pro-peace demonstrations. What do you suggest that people do to promote peace?
I don’t know. A massive Christian Revolution would be the ultimate solution, and really the only one I can think of.
 
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