Around world, Obama's presidency a disappointment

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Rich, you’re a libertarian. A libertarian like Pat Buchanan says that the US should never have gotten involved in WW2, you know, Hitler should have slaughtered all the Jews and then after that all the Poles, Roma and Russians (thankfully Hitler never targeted the Irish). How do you reconcile your empathy for the Jews’ suffering at the hands of the German Nazis with the notion that perhaps the US should never have gotten involved in that war?
Since when was Pat Buchanan anointed leader of the Libertarians and the dictator of all their thoughts?

Actually Pat Buchanan pointed out that the European Campaign of WW2 was not the ringing success many people think it was. WW2 started when the Germans invaded Poland - in the end all the Western Allies accomplished for Eastern Europe was that one brutal regime was exchanged for another. France’s chestnuts were pulled out of the fire though.

He also points out that possibly Poland might have been more willing to negotiate for the Danzig corridor had they not thought France and England had their back. But Buchanan is wrong in that regard - Germany wanted Poland just as Germany planned war with England and France - Hitler thought it would happen in 1943 or 1944 - that’s when their battle fleet was would have been built. He never dreamed England and France would go to war over a “scrap of paper” they had signed.
 
I am suspicious of her diaries referring to something that happened before 1932, the year when she met Mussolini. I have not seen any other documents from before that period to show Mussolini as anti-Semitic. On the contrary the Jews Duilio Sinigaglia, Gino Bolaffi e Bruno Mondolfo were declared “Fascist martyrs” (1919, 1922). 350 Jews participated to the March on Rome and 746 were enrolled in the “Fasci Italiani di combattimento” (1922). If he had such hatred for the Jews then how do we explain the fact that he had a Jewish mistress? However, I can see why Claretta Petacci would have wanted to denigrate her relationship with Mussolini. Margerita Sarfatti was not only Mussolini’s lover but also the editor of the paper “Il Popolo d’Italia” founded and directed by Mussolini himself (1918).

I think that Mussolini acted only out of political convenience.
 
I would not go too far with that statement. Italy allowed the roundup and shipment of Jews to the German concentration camps, and it also allowed a Nazi extermination camp to operate near Trieste.
Viva L’Italia!

Most people are aware of the horrors of the Holocaust and what happened to Jews in central Europe during the second world war. Less well known, however, is the story of Jews in Italy and how the Italians actually saved the lives of many Jewish refugees.

Italy in World War II
Italy passed anti-Semitic laws in 1938, but these were tolerable and many Jews simply continued doing business “under the table.” Many Jews in Germany were aware of Hitler’s anti-Semitism and tried to flee. However, as Elizabeth Bettina explains in It Happened in Italy, “Without a visa, you could not enter another country, and during this time, almost every country in the world turned its back on the Jews”. Italy alone allowed Jews to enter without visas. As a result, many Jews relocated to Italian cities and continued their lives and business there.

In 1940, Italy became Germany’s ally. However, according to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Italy “did not willingly cooperate in the Nazi plan to kill the Jews of Europe. Italians generally refused to participate in genocide, or to permit deportations from Italy . . . to the Nazi extermination camps. Italian military officers and officials usually protected Jews. . . Between 1941 and 1943, thousands of Jews escaped to Italy and Italian-occupied territory from German-occupied territory”.

Mussolini was overthrown in 1943 and Italy joined the Allies. Germany quickly invaded and began deporting Jews to German concentration camps. Almost 10,000 Jews were deported and over 7,000 of these died in Auschwitz and other German camps. However, “**ecause Italian authorities obstructed the deportations and many Italian Jews succeeded in hiding or escaped southward to Allied-occupied areas of Italy, more than 40,000 Jews survived the Holocaust in Italy” (USHMM).

Italian Concentration Camps
While there were concentration camps in Italy, these camps were vastly different from those in Germany and Poland. Eva Costabel, who was interned in the Italian concentration camp Porto Re, explains, “The Italian military did not want to deliver us to the Nazis… and they gave the Jewish leaders the right to administer the daily life of the camp, which gave us a fair amount of autonomy in our daily lives” (Bettina).

Internees in Italian concentration camps wore their own clothes, played cards, visited with their neighbours, and generally led normal lives. In Personal Stories at the USHMM, Hans Heiman, a survivor, says of his time in an Italian camp, “We were housed in a hotel overlooking the sea and we were allowed freedom of movement. We could go to the movies and were even given pocket money.”

Jewish internees were usually placed with their families; officials even transferred people from one camp to another camp to keep families together. Jews in the camp were allowed to set up synagogues and practice their faith.

As Costabel says, “The camp was not a death camp. They didn’t kill anybody” (Bettina). Edith Birns, a survivor of Auschwitz, told Bettina, “The Italians treated them like human beings. [My husband] Fred survived for six years in Italy. No one could ever have survived six years in German concentration camps.”

In the horrors of this era of history, the story of Italy helping its Jews stands out as remarkable. One country refused to follow Hitler’s lead and the result was thousands of lives saved.**
 
Viva L’Italia!

Most people are aware of the horrors of the Holocaust and what happened to Jews in central Europe during the second world war. Less well known, however, is the story of Jews in Italy and how the Italians actually saved the lives of many Jewish refugees.

Italy in World War II
Italy passed anti-Semitic laws in 1938, but these were tolerable and many Jews simply continued doing business “under the table.” Many Jews in Germany were aware of Hitler’s anti-Semitism and tried to flee. However, as Elizabeth Bettina explains in It Happened in Italy, “Without a visa, you could not enter another country, and during this time, almost every country in the world turned its back on the Jews”. Italy alone allowed Jews to enter without visas. As a result, many Jews relocated to Italian cities and continued their lives and business there.

In 1940, Italy became Germany’s ally. However, according to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Italy “did not willingly cooperate in the Nazi plan to kill the Jews of Europe. Italians generally refused to participate in genocide, or to permit deportations from Italy . . . to the Nazi extermination camps. Italian military officers and officials usually protected Jews. . . Between 1941 and 1943, thousands of Jews escaped to Italy and Italian-occupied territory from German-occupied territory”.

Mussolini was overthrown in 1943 and Italy joined the Allies. Germany quickly invaded and began deporting Jews to German concentration camps. Almost 10,000 Jews were deported and over 7,000 of these died in Auschwitz and other German camps. However, “**ecause Italian authorities obstructed the deportations and many Italian Jews succeeded in hiding or escaped southward to Allied-occupied areas of Italy, more than 40,000 Jews survived the Holocaust in Italy” (USHMM).

Italian Concentration Camps
While there were concentration camps in Italy, these camps were vastly different from those in Germany and Poland. Eva Costabel, who was interned in the Italian concentration camp Porto Re, explains, “The Italian military did not want to deliver us to the Nazis… and they gave the Jewish leaders the right to administer the daily life of the camp, which gave us a fair amount of autonomy in our daily lives” (Bettina).

Internees in Italian concentration camps wore their own clothes, played cards, visited with their neighbours, and generally led normal lives. In Personal Stories at the USHMM, Hans Heiman, a survivor, says of his time in an Italian camp, “We were housed in a hotel overlooking the sea and we were allowed freedom of movement. We could go to the movies and were even given pocket money.”

Jewish internees were usually placed with their families; officials even transferred people from one camp to another camp to keep families together. Jews in the camp were allowed to set up synagogues and practice their faith.

As Costabel says, “The camp was not a death camp. They didn’t kill anybody” (Bettina). Edith Birns, a survivor of Auschwitz, told Bettina, “The Italians treated them like human beings. [My husband] Fred survived for six years in Italy. No one could ever have survived six years in German concentration camps.”

In the horrors of this era of history, the story of Italy helping its Jews stands out as remarkable. One country refused to follow Hitler’s lead and the result was thousands of lives saved.**

Of my mother’s parents, one was Italian and one was German (well, Alsatian, really, but they were pretty Germanic back then)

Italians most assuredly are not Germans.

But none of that is to say that Mussolini was not anti-Semitic or that his government did not oppress Jews at all. Both were true.
 
Viva L’Italia!

Most people are aware of the horrors of the Holocaust and what happened to Jews in central Europe during the second world war. Less well known, however, is the story of Jews in Italy and how the Italians actually saved the lives of many Jewish refugees.

Italy in World War II
Italy passed anti-Semitic laws in 1938, but these were tolerable and many Jews simply continued doing business “under the table.” Many Jews in Germany were aware of Hitler’s anti-Semitism and tried to flee. However, as Elizabeth Bettina explains in It Happened in Italy, “Without a visa, you could not enter another country, and during this time, almost every country in the world turned its back on the Jews”. Italy alone allowed Jews to enter without visas. As a result, many Jews relocated to Italian cities and continued their lives and business there.

In 1940, Italy became Germany’s ally. However, according to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Italy “did not willingly cooperate in the Nazi plan to kill the Jews of Europe. Italians generally refused to participate in genocide, or to permit deportations from Italy . . . to the Nazi extermination camps. Italian military officers and officials usually protected Jews. . . Between 1941 and 1943, thousands of Jews escaped to Italy and Italian-occupied territory from German-occupied territory”.

Mussolini was overthrown in 1943 and Italy joined the Allies. Germany quickly invaded and began deporting Jews to German concentration camps. Almost 10,000 Jews were deported and over 7,000 of these died in Auschwitz and other German camps. However, “**ecause Italian authorities obstructed the deportations and many Italian Jews succeeded in hiding or escaped southward to Allied-occupied areas of Italy, more than 40,000 Jews survived the Holocaust in Italy” (USHMM).

Italian Concentration Camps
While there were concentration camps in Italy, these camps were vastly different from those in Germany and Poland. Eva Costabel, who was interned in the Italian concentration camp Porto Re, explains, “The Italian military did not want to deliver us to the Nazis… and they gave the Jewish leaders the right to administer the daily life of the camp, which gave us a fair amount of autonomy in our daily lives” (Bettina).

Internees in Italian concentration camps wore their own clothes, played cards, visited with their neighbours, and generally led normal lives. In Personal Stories at the USHMM, Hans Heiman, a survivor, says of his time in an Italian camp, “We were housed in a hotel overlooking the sea and we were allowed freedom of movement. We could go to the movies and were even given pocket money.”

Jewish internees were usually placed with their families; officials even transferred people from one camp to another camp to keep families together. Jews in the camp were allowed to set up synagogues and practice their faith.

As Costabel says, “The camp was not a death camp. They didn’t kill anybody” (Bettina). Edith Birns, a survivor of Auschwitz, told Bettina, “The Italians treated them like human beings. [My husband] Fred survived for six years in Italy. No one could ever have survived six years in German concentration camps.”

In the horrors of this era of history, the story of Italy helping its Jews stands out as remarkable. One country refused to follow Hitler’s lead and the result was thousands of lives saved.**

If you noted I did not talk about the Italian concentration camps but about Nazi concentration camps in Italy. The Nazi extermination camp of the Risiera of San Sabba was quite different from the Italian Army concentration camp of Porto Re. Do not forget that Italy was also starting a civil war at that time and now it is also very convenient for the Italians to blame everything on the “few” fascists of the time. A lot of Italians on either side have been and still are very good at historical revision when it comes to the massacres that happened in Italy during and soon after WWII. I honestly do not believe in the myth of “Italiani brava gente” (Italians good people). I grew up in the anti-fascist culture of Italy (60’s, 70’s) and I can honestly tell you that I do not see a lot of intellectual honesty coming from either side.
 
We’ve had disappointing presidents for a long time. And as far as I can tell, other world leaders haven’t exactly set the world on fire with their ideas or leadership.
I think the Vatican’s leaders over the years have done a good job?
 
I think the Vatican’s leaders over the years have done a good job?
Over the years? Sure, most of them. But not all, like the Medici Alexander VI. The Holy Ghost protects the Church from doctrinal error, not from bad popes. 🤷
 
Over the years? Sure, most of them. But not all, like the Medici Alexander VI. The Holy Ghost protects the Church from doctrinal error, not from bad popes. 🤷
I agree that he was quite an hyper-sexed individual but we also must look at how much he did for Rome at that time. He was a good politician and he was also active in spreading the daily devotion of the rosary among the populace and the cult of the Blessed Sacrament. Beside his sexual disordered behaviors it looks like the historians are now giving him good scores as a monarch; however, as a pope he still lacks some fundamentals. 🙂
 
Nah, he was just a good-time party animal. 😃
:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Children:
Cesare Borgia (1476-1507)
Giovanni Borgia (1478-1497)
Lucrezia Borgia (1480-1519)
Goffredo Borgia (1481-1516)
Laura Orsini (1492-1530)
Pedro Luìs Borgia (? - 1488)
Girolama Borgia (1469 – 1483)
Isabel Borgia (1467-1547)
 
:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Children:
Cesare Borgia (1476-1507)
Giovanni Borgia (1478-1497)
Lucrezia Borgia (1480-1519)
Goffredo Borgia (1481-1516)
Laura Orsini (1492-1530)
Pedro Luìs Borgia (? - 1488)
Girolama Borgia (1469 – 1483)
Isabel Borgia (1467-1547)
Wow. None saw a 40th birthday except Isabel and she lived to become 80!
 
Nah, he was just a good-time party animal. 😃
He did enjoy having a good time. It’s hard to know the reality of his history because so many calumnies have been invented about him. The great likelihood is that he was sexually chaste during his papacy.

He was worldly, as were his times and was a Renaissance politician to the full. He did father children, both before and after he was ordained a priest. It may be noted that at the time, it was not unusual for one to become a cardinal without being a priest, which wasn’t required until a much later era. He was made a cardinal as a political thing, then ordained a priest as an afterthought.

One has to admit that he was a kind and thoughtful parent, though he spoiled his children, and was a good administrator.
 
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