[Article] Apprehending Apokatastasis: The Incoherence of Everlasting Perdition

  • Thread starter Thread starter Mythicalbio
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

Mythicalbio

Guest

From the article:
1) The doctrine of creatio ex nihilo asserts the absolute liberty of the Creator in all of his acts. As the infinite plenitude of Being, God did not need to create the cosmos to fill something that was lacking in his life (remember—no passive potency) and having created it he does not find that his happiness and bliss have been increased. Moreover, not only does God enjoy absolute freedom to create, or not create, the cosmos; but he also enjoys absolute freedom in what kind of cosmos to create. He is not subject to constraints outside himself.
2) God eternally wills himself as the Good, and his willing of the cosmos is encompassed within this eternal self-willing. The purpose, telos, goal, consummation, and end of the divine act of creation is the Good; or to put it in the language of Aristotle, God is the final cause of creation. The cosmos is created by Love for consummation in Love.
3) God does not create evil. Only goodness flows from God. For this reason the classical theologians of the Christian tradition have understood evil as a privation of being, a defect, lack, surd, nothingness. The presence of evil within God’s good creation urgently raises the question of theodicy. The question cannot be banished with a mere wave of a philosophical wand. Evil will always be the greatest challenge to faith, both intellectually and existentially. It’s one thing to acknowledge, and suffer, evil’s presence in the temporal order; it’s quite another thing to assert its eschatological perdurance.
4) The eschaton , therefore, necessarily and definitively reveals the character and identity of the Creator. The conclusion of the story can neither surprise nor disappoint him, for the conclusion is willed in the initial act of creation. Hence the presence of evil in the eschaton is quite impossible. In Hart’s words: “He could not be the creator of anything substantially evil without evil also being part of the definition of who he essentially is.” Here is the crucial Hartian claim: if everlasting perdition belongs to the climax of the cosmic narrative, then it was so intended by God from the beginning. Every free act is teleologically directed and therefore defined by its final cause. The inference cannot be avoided. After all, nothing compelled God to create this particular universe with this particular eschaton , and the omnipotence–omniscience combo precludes divine failure. If hell was intended, then it is good and inheres in the Good; if hell is intended, then hell becomes God.

The above reasoning leads Hart to the conclusion that a pernicious incoherence lies deep within the theological tradition.
  • God freely created the cosmos ex nihilo .
  • God is the Good and wills only the good.
  • God will condemn a portion of his rational creatures to everlasting torment.
Two of these propositions may be rationally held without contradiction, argues Hart, but not all three simultaneously. If God wills hell, he cannot be genuinely good.
Thoughts?
 
Last edited:
Note: if you follow the link you will see this is a 10-part series, and might be worth reading if you’re interested.
 
Last edited:
Mythicalbio said:
…
The above reasoning leads Hart to the conclusion that a pernicious incoherence lies deep within the theological tradition.
  • God freely created the cosmos ex nihilo .
  • God is the Good and wills only the good.
  • God will condemn a portion of his rational creatures to everlasting torment.
Two of these propositions may be rationally held without contradiction, argues Hart, but not all three simultaneously. If God wills hell, he cannot be genuinely good.
Thoughts?
Click to expand...
The assumption made is that justice is not good. However justice is:
the constant and permanent determination to give everyone his or her rightful due.
Click to expand...
Note that the Beatific Vision is a supernatural gift not a natural endowment of angels and mankind.
 
Last edited:
This is true, although with divine simplicity, justice and punishment are all the other things at once, and might not be retributive like we think of it: The True Grit of God’s Justice | Eclectic Orthodoxy could it not also be satisfied by purgatory? In addition, there is also the perpetual evil of hell, and why that must be if God is fully capable of doing otherwise, which the first four points addresses.

Note: I am not a universalist, I am thinking of it though, and wish to know arguments against it. Since it is an issue not satisfied by so-called hopeful universalism like Balthasar, it is just an issue of brute facts: all are saved or not, God made the world intending eternal damnation of a portion of creation or not, etc.
 
@Vico nailed the precise weakness in Hart’s argument. It’s acceptable if you want to hope that all men are saved, but it is wrong to think that if some men are eternally damned, that God is not good. That injects a pernicious presumption that God owes us anything, merely because he created us. Heresy is always a selective view of the faith, choosing some theology and wielding it to exclude counterpoints.

It has not been revealed who is in hell; but Christ himself said that he will judge some souls and they will end up excluded from salvation. You could understand this as a general warning of what may be, and not a guarantee of particular damnation; but you cannot, as Hart does, exclude the possibility of eternal damnation — that makes Jesus into a deceiver — or deny God’s goodness as perfect justice.
 
Last edited:
Mythicalbio said:
… could it not also be satisfied by purgatory? In addition, there is also the perpetual evil of hell, and why that must be if God is fully capable of doing otherwise …
Click to expand...
No, because to be able to purge attachments to sin, the disposition of charity must first be present.

God is not capable of doing the logically impossible. The disposition of charity, of necessity, is chosen by free will, not imposed.
 
Last edited:
The Council of Sens (1140) condemned the idea that free will is sufficient in itself for any good. Donez., 373.

Council of Orange (529)
In canon 20, entitled that Without God Man Can Do No Good. . . Denz., 193; quoting St. Prosper.

In canon 22, says, No one has anything of his own except lying and sin. Denz., 194; quoting St. Prosper.

.
The Catholic Church dogmatically teaches AIDED/ CAUSED/ IMPOSED FREE WILL as follows:

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;

For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary, (De fide dogma).

There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide dogma).

.
St. Augustine on Grace and Predestination

I.(1) On human interaction with grace: Every good work, even good will, is the work of God.
.
De gratia Christi 25, 26: “For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it”
.
De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32: “It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good … . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act , providing most effective powers to the will.”
.
Ibid. 6. 15: “If then your merits are God’s gifts, God does not crown your merits as your merits, but as His gifts.”
.
Ep. 154, 5. 16: “What then is the merit of man before grace by which merit he should receive grace? Since only grace makes every good merit of ours, and when God crowns our merits, He crowns nothing else but His own gifts.”

.
Aquinas said, “ God changes the will without forcing it. But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
.
CCC 308 God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
.
CCC 307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will.
.
Ez. 36:27 I will put My spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you shall keep my judgments, and do them.
.
CCC 2022; The divine initiative (supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul) in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
.
St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
.
THIS IS THE WAY ABOVE, God helps us that we ALWAYS FREELY will what God wills us to will, and we ALWAYS FREELY do what God wills and causes us to do.
.
God bless
 
Last edited:
Latin said:
…
THIS IS THE WAY ABOVE, God helps us that we ALWAYS FREELY will what God wills us to will, and we ALWAYS FREELY do what God wills and causes us to do.
.
God bless
Click to expand...
That is good for those saved, however not cover the other case. And a person can do what is morally good without grace, however it is not salvific.

The Catechism states that God is not responsible for the condemnation of a person – a person truly has free will choice:
1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; 620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. …

620 Cf. Council of Orange II (529): DS 397; Council of Trent (1547):1567.

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back.
Click to expand...
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p 112-113:
In the condition of Original Sin, man possesses the ability of knowing natural religious truths and of performing natural morally good actions. The Vatican Council teaches that man, with his natural power of cognition, can with certainty know the existence of God. D 1785, 1806. The Council of Trent teaches that free will was not lost or extinguished by the fall of Adam. D815.
Click to expand...
And on pages 233-235:
a) Even in the fallen state, man can, by his natural intellectual power, know religious and moral truths. (De fide.)
b) For the performance of a morally good action Sanctifying Grace is not required. (De fide.)
c) The Grace of Faith is not necessary for the performance of a morally good action. (Sent. certa.)
d) Actual Grace is not necessary for the performance of a morally good action. (Sent. certa.)
Click to expand...
And the dogmas from the Council of Orange II are actually:
  • Grace cannot be merited by natural work. either de condigno or de congruo. (De Fide.)
  • By his good works the justified man really acquires a claim to supernatural reward from God. (De fide.)
  • Man of himself cannot acquire any positive disposition for grace. (Sent. certa.)
  • Actual Grace internally and directly enlightens the understanding and strengthens the will. (Sent. certa.)
  • For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary. (De fide.)
  • Intemal supernatural grace is absolutely necessary for the beginning of faith and of salvation. (De fide.)
  • Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification. (De fide.)
 
Apprehending Apokatastasis: The Incoherence of Everlasting Perdition

Every free act is teleologically directed and therefore defined by its final cause.

Here is the crucial Hartian claim: if everlasting perdition belongs to the climax of the cosmic narrative, then it was so intended by God from the beginning.


God freely created the cosmos ex nihilo .

God is the Good and wills only the good.

God will condemn a portion of his rational creatures to everlasting torment.
.
Here is the crucial Hartian claim: if everlasting perdition belongs to the climax of the cosmic narrative, then it was so intended by God from the beginning.

.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;

All things are created and governed with a view to man, to the development of his life and his intelligence, and to the satisfaction of his needs (Aristides, “Apol.”, i, v, vi, xv, xvi;).

His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.

God preserves the universe in being; He acts in and with every creature in each and all its activities.

He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.

Evil He converts into good (Genesis 1:20; cf. Psalm 90:10); and suffering He uses as an instrument whereby to train men up as a father traineth up his children (Deuteronomy 8:1-6; Psalm 65:2-10;

Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”,

God is the sole ruler of the world. His will governs all things. He loves all men, desires the salvation of all, and His providence extends to all nation.

Again, from the fact that God has created the universe, it shows that He must also govern it; for just as the contrivances of man demand attention and guidance, so God, as a good workman, must care for His work.

That end is that all creatures should manifest the glory of God, and in particular that man should glorify Him, recognizing in nature the work of His hand, serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and to eternal happiness in God.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm

.
a. We can say with absolute certainty, if God will condemn a portion of His rational creatures to everlasting torment, than it was so intended by God from the beginning and He created the human race accordingly and He governs the human race accordingly and He is responsible for their damnation.

b. If, from the beginning God intended to save the entire human race then God created the human race accordingly and He governs the human race accordingly and at the end everyone saved.

Which statement is correct a. or b?
.
God bless
 
Last edited:
May I point to you that Hell is somewhere where GOD is utterly absent. HE has retreated completely from it in order to locate those who do not wish to be with HIM.
Also GOD does not condemn any one.
We condemn ourselves through our own actions and free will.
Therefore the contradiction does not exist.
Peace!
 
JerryZ said:
We condemn ourselves through our own actions and free will.
Click to expand...
JERRYZ, OUR FREE WILLS ARE USELESS AND AT THE END GOD’S WILL BE DONE.

The Council of Sens (1140) condemned the idea that free will is sufficient in itself for any good. Donez., 373.

Council of Orange (529)
In canon 20, entitled that Without God Man Can Do No Good. . . Denz., 193; quoting St. Prosper.

In canon 22, says, No one has anything of his own except lying and sin. Denz., 194; quoting St. Prosper.

.
JerryZ, "Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the LORD that will be established."

CCC 303 God cares for all, from the least things to the great events of the world and its history. The sacred books powerfully affirm God’s absolute sovereignty over the course of events: "Our God is in the heavens; he does whatever he pleases."162
As the book of Proverbs states: "Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the LORD that will be established." 164
.
CCC 313 St. Thomas More, shortly before his martyrdom, consoled his daughter: "Nothing can come but that that God wills. And I make me very sure that whatsoever that be, seem it never so bad in sight, it shall indeed be the best." 182
.
Aquinas said, “ God changes the will without forcing it. But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …

CCC 308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
.
CCC 307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will.
.
Ez. 36:27 I will put My spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you shall keep my judgments, and do them.
.
CCC 2022; The divine initiative (supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul) in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
.
St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
.
CCC 301 With creation, God does not abandon his creatures to themselves. He not only gives them being and existence, but also, and at every moment, upholds and sustains them in being, enables them to act and brings them to their final end. Recognizing this utter dependence with respect to the Creator is a source of wisdom and freedom, of joy and confidence.
.
THIS IS THE WAY ABOVE, God helps us that we ALWAYS FREELY will what God wills us to will, and we ALWAYS FREELY do what God wills and causes us to do.
.
God bless
 
Last edited:
So you’re equating a lack of faith with selfishness, that seems like a bit of a stretch.
 
JerryZ said:
May I point to you that Hell is somewhere where GOD is utterly absent. HE has retreated completely from it in order to locate those who do not wish to be with HIM.
Click to expand...
Then we can hope that Hell is quite empty, really empty as i believe that most sinners are simply not aware really of why they are sinning, they are doing what comes easiest to them which sadly results in sin, they are not i believe enjoying sin so much that they would wish to do it again and again for eternity. Our bodies are weak, they can resist sin but it takes effort and so a lot of people just let sin have it’s say. I would love to know how the demons chose against God for eternity considering their bodies and minds were already in perfection but that has not been fully revealed to us so it is impossible to really know yet.
 
But surely such a blanket condemnation can’t be applied to everyone. Not everyone can be painted with the brush of “I don’t care”, or “I can’t be bothered”. Many nonbelievers are no more selfish than the majority of Catholics. They too are seeking the truth, they simply lack your “faith”, through no malice or selfishness on their part. So selfishness wouldn’t really seem to be the differentiator between those who are condemned, and those who aren’t, rather it would simply seem to be a convenient way of justifying the condemnation of those who think differently than you do. Indeed, that would seem to be the natural tendency of mankind…to condemn those who disagree…and blame it on them.
 
Last edited:
I examine myself all the time and to be honest the biggest reasons for me committing sin tend to be either laziness or just basically taking the easy route i don’t feel pride comes into it. Avoiding sin takes effort and a lot of us find making effort a challenge and so would rather indulge in sin, St Paul compares avoiding sin to training for a race, it requires effort, it requires discipline.
 
Vico said:
Neither a or b is correct.
Click to expand...
Apprehending Apokatastasis: The Incoherence of Everlasting Perdition

"Every free act is teleologically directed and therefore defined by its final cause.

Here is the crucial Hartian claim: if everlasting perdition belongs to the climax of the cosmic narrative, then it was so intended by God from the beginning.
  • God freely created the cosmos ex nihilo .
  • God is the Good and wills only the good.
  • God will condemn a portion of his rational creatures to everlasting torment."
Here is the crucial Hartian claim: "if everlasting perdition belongs to the climax of the cosmic narrative, then it was so intended by God from the beginning."

.
a. We can say with absolute certainty, if God will condemn a portion of His rational creatures to everlasting torment, than it was so intended by God from the beginning and He created the human race accordingly and He governs the human race accordingly and He is responsible for their damnation.

b. If, from the beginning God intended to save the entire human race then God created the human race accordingly and He governs the human race accordingly and at the end everyone saved.
.
Which statement is correct a. or b?

Actually both statement is correct, and statement b. at the end will be reality.

I have enough faith in God and in Catholic Theology to believe, we will all see it in heaven.
.
God bless
 
Last edited:
But in the end it doesn’t come down to selfishness at all, because we’re all human, we’re all selfish, we all sin. So the thing that differentiates the condemned person from the saved person isn’t whether they’re selfish, isn’t whether they’re sinners, it’s simply the fact that one person has “faith” in a particular belief, while the other person doesn’t. But even that faith, more often than not, seems to be steeped in pride.

Sure, there are those atheists who wear their disbelief with pride, but there are just as many believers who do the same. Yes, you can look to pride as the foundation of sin, but you can’t look to pride as the reason why one person is condemned to hell while the other person isn’t.

So it seems disingenuous to blame the condemned person for their fate, while absolving the saved person for doing exactly the same thing…acting in accordance with their beliefs.

If one person is to be condemned for doing that, then we should all be condemned for doing that.

To act in accordance with one’s beliefs, would in itself seem to be a selfish act.
 
Last edited:
God’s grace is what stops us from doing wrong, not the fear of Hell, if that was the case then no Catholics would do wrong ever as they would be so afraid of going to Hell that they would avoid sin and live near blameless lives.
 
Again, I think that you’ve made a blanket statement that you have no justification for making, unless you’re going to base a person’s salvation on the contriteness of their hearts, and not the content of their beliefs.

And if that’s the case, then the agnostic and the Catholic may be standing on equal ground.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top