[Article] Apprehending Apokatastasis: The Incoherence of Everlasting Perdition

[Vico]

This is absolutely true, but if it is God who first wills and acts in everyone, wouldn’t they all obtain the crown eventually since He only wills good? No one wills good without God, at least salvific goods, so why doesn’t He just cause everyone to freely will and act their salvation, so that He can give it to them? Humans at least.

It is a logical impossibility to attain the Beatific Vision without first proving charity through free will. God is not responsible for the damnation of mankind or angels, because it was a free choice of each to not cooperate with the grace given.

Catechism of the Catholic Church (excerpts)

310 … But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world “in a state of journeying” towards its ultimate perfection. In God’s plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. …

311 Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. …

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. … self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”

 

[Mythicalbio]

God can’t know what we do before we do it? This is why Christianity is in some sense deterministic, even with free will. I am not into Molinism or anything that even suggest God is passive to our wills, or has to work around us in some 5 dimensional chess, etc. No, the will isn’t entirely passive, it is very much active, but as far as I can discern, it’s activity and what it wills is grace. In fact, everything is grace. Me willing to type this and being able to is grace. Man has a very active part in his salvation, but not as a first or last cause, and not as a sufficient cause. Then final sufficient cause of everything is nothing but God’s will. So because of all that, it always goes back to: why are not all saved since God can do it. If He can, from what we know about Him, it seems like He would.

 

[Mythicalbio]

I agree, as a Catholic I wouldn’t disagree. What I am saying is that a those free choices require His grace. If He gives it, they will freely choose to love Him, if He doesn’t, they won’t. So why wouldn’t He aid them, humans at least, in the right choice?

 

[Latin]

God made it possible through free will, that human and angelic creatures could attain the Beatific Vision.

WE DON’T HAVE A FREE WILL TO CHOSE GOD, ONLY GOD CAN CHOSE US AS FOLLOWS:

CCCS 1996-1998; “Justification comes from grace (God’s free and undeserved help) and is given to us to respond to his call.
This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.”

John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.

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The Catholic Church vehemently rejects UNAIDED FREE WILL as follows:

The Council of Sens (1140) condemned the idea that free will is sufficient in itself for any good. Donez., 373.

Council of Orange (529)
In canon 20, entitled that Without God Man Can Do No Good. . . Denz., 193; quoting St. Prosper.

In canon 22, says, No one has anything of his own except lying and sin. Denz., 194; quoting St. Prosper.
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;
Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).

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The Catholic Church dogmatically teaches AIDED FREE WILL as follows:

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;

For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary, (De fide dogma).

There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide dogma).
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We are always all freely cooperating by virtue of God’s aided free will because:
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CCC 308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
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Aquinas said, “ God changes the will without forcing it. But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
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Ez. 36:27 I will put My spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you shall keep my judgments, and do them.
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CCC 2022; The divine initiative (supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul) in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
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St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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THIS IS THE WAY ABOVE, God helps us that we ALWAYS FREELY will what God wills us to will, and we ALWAYS FREELY do what God wills and causes us to do.
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God bless

 

[Vico]

I agree, as a Catholic I wouldn’t disagree. What I am saying is that a those free choices require His grace. If He gives it, they will freely choose to love Him, if He doesn’t, they won’t. So why wouldn’t He aid them, humans at least, in the right choice?

Catholic Doctrines:

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ludwig Ott, p. 240-241

a) God gives all the just sufficient grace (gratia proxime vel remote sufficiens) for the observation of the Divine Commandments. (De fide.)
b) God gives all the faithful who are sinners sufficient grace (gratia saltem remote sufficiens) for conversion. (Sent. communis.)
c) God gives all innocent unbelievers (infideles negativi) sufficient grace to achieve eternal salvation. (Sent. certa.)

 

[Latin]

(name removed by moderator), apart from the Blessed Virgin, God created all of us to be sinners.
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MARY WAS FREE FROM ALL PERSONAL SIN John Paul II

“Testifies that Mary, free from original sin, was also preserved from all actual sin and that this initial holiness was granted to her in order to fill her entire life.

Trent expresses this conviction, affirming that no one can avoid all sins, even venial sins, throughout his life, unless he is given a special privilege, as the Church holds with regard to the Blessed Virgin (DS 1573).

The Council of Trent asserts, a special privilege guarantees this immunity from sin. And this is what happened with Mary.

The special privilege granted by God to her who is all holy leads us to admire the marvels accomplished by grace in her life.”

https://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2BVM24.HTM
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For Mary to commit even one act of sin it was a theological impossibility.

Because God granted to Mary her special privilege the immunity from sin and all the graces necessary to infallible accomplish her God’s gift of destiny/ fate.

If God would willed, He could create us with the privilege of immunity from sin and in this world would be no place for evil and sin.
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Catholic Encyclopedia : Evil
“But we cannot say without denying the Divine omnipotence, that another equally perfect universe could not be created in which evil would have no place.”

CCC 310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it?
With infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world in a state of journeying towards its ultimate perfection, 314 through the dramas of evil and sin. – God created the dramas of evil and sin for our benefit.

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THE REASON GOD CREATED THE DRAMAS OF EVIL AND SIN.

Life without suffering would produce spoiled brats, not joyful saints.

Our struggle and tribulation while journeying towards our ultimate perfection through the dramas of evil and sin is the cost which in-prints the virtue/ nobility into our souls – the cost of our road to nobility and perfection.

In this world man has to learn by experience and contrast, and to develop by the overcoming of obstacles (Lactantius, “De ira Dei”, xiii, xv in “P.L., VII, 115-24. St. Augustine “De ordine”, I, vii, n. 18 in “P.L.”, XXXII, 986).
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As we see above (name removed by moderator), we are all sinners because God willed to create us to be sinners for good reason, for the benefit of the entire human race.
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If God would willed, He could granted all of us His special privilege the immunity from sin and all the graces necessary to infallible accomplish our destiny/ fate, like the Blessed Virgin.
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With the graces God granted to the Blessed Virgin, we all could accomplish the same holy life.

God and His gift of graces Designed the movie of the Blessed Virgin’s holy life from all eternity.

In the same way, God and His gift of graces Designed the movie of our life from all eternity.
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God bless

 

[Neithan]

Not everything is grace. There is nature and grace, which is supernatural. Our free will, which is natural, either cooperates or does not cooperate with grace, a supernatural gift. God is never passive; entirely active — and we are not entirely passive, so as we have active free will we can oppose God.

Then final sufficient cause of everything is nothing but God’s will.

Yes, and salvation or damnation involve our free will as a necessary condition, because God causes us to have free will.

If He can, from what we know about Him, it seems like He would.

God can do what is logically possible. So yes, he can create a world where all are saved. Throw free will into that world. Now is universalism certain? Whether or not all who could be saved cooperate does depend on creatures. The reason we supervenerate Mary is because she freely chose to cooperate with God and brought salvation into a fallen world.

If universalism is an absolute certainty that makes the problem of evil insurmountable, because it removes the greater good of free will. That would mean that all of our suffering is a gratuitous evil.

 

[Neithan]

If God would willed, He could granted all of us His special privilege the immunity from sin and all the graces necessary to infallible accomplish our destiny/ fate, like the Blessed Virgin.

And why not, if universal salvation is our guaranteed end? If our free will can not resist grace, then sin is gratuitous.

 

[Mythicalbio]

Now is universalism certain? Whether or not all who could be saved cooperate does depend on creatures. The reason we supervenerate Mary is because she freely chose to cooperate with God and brought salvation into a fallen world.

I guess this is the key point then, as I don’t believe in libertarian free will, I think the will can be freely moved by God, to the point where it is little exaggeration to say “God is the only free will in the universe,” although I don’t deny man’s free will, it is limited and creatively and inspired on all sides by God, it is finite and weak, and without God won’t choose Him. I don’t think it is possible that God rested the plan of salvation on Mary saying yes, and didn’t will it to where she gave a definite yes. I will need to look further in the teachings to see if this unlimited free will is even acceptable, it might be an allowed opinion though.

Concerning theodicy, I think Irenaean theodicy is alright, but I don’t know for sure. I am not a Universalist at this time but am seeking it there are any arguments against it, that do not require libertarian free will.

 

[Latin]

Neithan, GOD DESIGNED, DECREED, PREORDAINED AND CAUSES EVERY OUR ACTIONS AND CHOICES WITHOUT FORCING IT. – God is tailor-made every our actions for all of us from all eternity.

CCC 2022; The divine initiative (supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul) in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man. – We can but we never resist God’s graces.

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Catholic Encyclopedia : Evil
“But we cannot say without denying the Divine omnipotence, that another equally perfect universe could not be created in which evil would have no place.”
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CCC 310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it?
With infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world in a state of journeying towards its ultimate perfection, 314 through the dramas of evil and sin. – God created the dramas of evil and sin for our benefit.

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THE REASON GOD CREATED THE DRAMAS OF EVIL AND SIN.

Life without suffering would produce spoiled brats, not joyful saints.

Our struggle and tribulation while journeying towards our ultimate perfection through the dramas of evil and sin is the cost which in-prints the virtue/ nobility into our souls – the cost of our road to nobility and perfection.

In this world man has to learn by experience and contrast, and to develop by the overcoming of obstacles (Lactantius, “De ira Dei”, xiii, xv in “P.L., VII, 115-24. St. Augustine “De ordine”, I, vii, n. 18 in “P.L.”, XXXII, 986).

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Free Will explains;

“God is the author of all causes and effects, but is not the author of sin, because an action ceases to be sin if God wills it to happen. Still God is the cause of sin.
God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.”

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;

“His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.

He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.

All events preordained by God in accordance with His all-embracing purpose.

Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design” (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit.,

God is the sole ruler of the world. His will governs all things. He loves all men, desires the salvation of all, and His providence extends to all nation.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm
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AS WE SEE ABOVE

In His training program God designed every obstacles down to its minutest details, and He also designed His aids for us down to its minutest details, the way He aides us that we all will able to overcome every our obstacles.
At the end of our training program on this earth, we all will be joyful saints in heaven.
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CCC 324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.
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God bless

 

[Neithan]

We can but we never resist God’s graces.

Where are you getting that from? If that’s true, then how are mortal sins possible?

Yes, God exercises sovereign providence, and permits evil — because of free will.

We have to also make sure that what we believe aligns with reality. As we see the world, horrible evil is committed by people. Why? If we cannot possibly avoid salvation? Hell is the natural consequence of two things: 1. mortal sin, and 2. death. Both of which are evils experienced by human beings as a consequence of the Fall, which is a consequence of free will.

If you accept irresistable grace and universal salvation, then how do you account for mortal sin and death? These would be completely gratuitous evils.

We either accept eternal damnation as a natural consequence of free will, or we accept that God permits gratuitous evil.

How does the universalist account for gratuitous evil?

 

[Neithan]

I am not a Universalist at this time but am seeking it there are any arguments against it, that do not require libertarian free will.

Referred to above:

If universalism is an absolute certainty that makes the problem of evil insurmountable, because it removes the greater good of free will. That would mean that all of our suffering is a gratuitous evil.

 

[Mythicalbio]

That is why I mentioned Irenaean theodicy. If universalism was true, God would allow evil and sin for the same reasons He allows it to the Elect now. In addition, if universalism is true, all would freely choose God. Free will isn’t dependant on hell, those who God predestined and crafted for sinlessness can’t go to hell, the Saints in heaven can’t sin, those in purgatory can’t either, their freedom is still fully in tact. Hell and free will are separate subjects.

 

[Vico]

With the graces God granted to the Blessed Virgin, we all could accomplish the same holy life.

The Blessed Virgin Mary was kept free from all sin from the first moment of her conception in anticipation of her free will to cooperate with grace. Pope Pius IX explained in Ineffibilis Deus (1854) that the reason was:

Supreme Reason for the Privilege: The Divine Maternity
And indeed it was wholly fitting that so wonderful a mother should be ever resplendent with the glory of most sublime holiness and so completely free from all taint of original sin that she would triumph utterly over the ancient serpent.

 

[Latin]

Neithan, first I’m a Catholic, second I believe Thomism, third I believe the fulfillment of CCC 1058.

Now, I explain for you Neithan step by step my above post 71.

Catholic Encyclopedia : Evil
“But we cannot say without denying the Divine omnipotence, that another equally perfect universe could not be created in which evil would have no place.”

As we see above: If God would willed, He would create this world in which evil would have no place.

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CCC 310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it?
With infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world in a state of journeying towards its ultimate perfection, 314 through the dramas of evil and sin.

As we see above: With infinite wisdom and goodness God created in the world the dramas of evil and sin.

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Life without suffering would produce spoiled brats, not joyful saints.

Our struggle and tribulation while journeying towards our ultimate perfection through the dramas of evil and sin is the cost which in-prints the virtue/ nobility into our souls – the cost of our road to nobility and perfection.

In this world man has to learn by experience and contrast, and to develop by the overcoming of obstacles. Lactantius, “De ira Dei”, xiii.

As we see above: In His training program on this earth God designed every obstacles down to its minutest details, and He also designed His aids for us down to its minutest details, the way He aides us that we all will able to overcome every our obstacles.

On this earth, our journeying towards our ultimate perfection, through the dramas of evil and sin, the results of sins causes our sufferings, which makes all of us noble and joyful saints in heaven.

At the end of our training program on this earth, we all will be joyful saints in heaven.

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CCC 311 For almighty God. . . because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.

CCC 324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.

As we see above: There is no Gratuitous evil in Catholic Theology.

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Free Will explains;

“God is the author of all causes and effects, but is not the author of sin, because an action ceases to be sin if God wills it to happen. Still God is the cause of sin.
God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.”

As we see above: God Designed, Decreed, Foreordained from all eternity and causes every our actions, includes our act of sins.
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St. Thomas (C. G., II, xxviii) if God’s purpose were made dependent on the foreseen free act of any creature, God would thereby sacrifice His own freedom, and would submit Himself to His creatures, thus abdicating His essential supremacy–a thing which is, of course, utterly inconceivable.
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God bless

 

[Latin]

… how are mortal sins possible?

Neithan, if God does not neglect His duty of care of the human race, NO ONE end up in hell, because to die in the state of mortal sin is not possible. – If God neglects His duty of care of the human race, to die in the state of mortal sin is possible.

John 15:5; “… for without Me you can do nothing.”
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Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;

Fallen man cannot redeem himself, (De fide dogma). – It is God’s responsibility to save ALL OF US by predestined to heaven.

CCCS 1996-1998; “This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.”
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Aquinas said, “ God changes the will without forcing it. But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
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John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you. – NO ONE reject God’s graces and His call to heaven, because God himself operates in our wills.

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THE MYSTERY OF PREDESTINATION John Salza (Catholic Theologian.)

“The vocation to eternal life is supernatural, it surpasses the powers of human intellect and will, he must be predestined to that end by God.

God must direct us to this end by His power and grace.

Thus, predestination is a certain and infallible truth, revealed by Scripture and taught by the Catholic Church.”

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PREDESTINATION TO HEAVEN IS NOT ENOUGH BECAUSE:

Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification, (De fide dogma). – It is God’s responsibility TO KEEP US SAVED by His grace of Final Perseverance.

God gives His gift of grace of final perseverance only to His elect. – Infallible teachings of the Trent.

God’s gift of final perseverance INFALLIBLY PROTECT every receiver not to die in the state of mortal sin, without it everyone would die in mortal sin, there is no salvation without His gift of final perseverance. – Infallible teachings of the Trent.

CCC 2016 The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance.
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As we see above Neithan, we don’t have to be spiritual geniuses to conclude, God is responsible for the salvation of the entire human race by virtue of His predestination to heaven and His providence of His gift of final perseverance.
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If God does not neglect His duty of care of the human race, everyone predestined to heaven (there is no salvation without it) and everyone receives His gift of final perseverance (there is no salvation without it) and everyone saved.
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The whole Catholic Church is praying for the salvation of the entire human race (CCC 1058), we all should believe what we are praying for.
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God bless

 

[Neithan]

As a Thomist then, you disagree with him that God reprobates some people.

I understand the basis for your hope in universal reconciliation; but I think you take it too far to presume that this is an absolute certainty.

CCCS 1996-1998; “This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.”

The call to eternal life depends entirely on God’s “gratuitous initiative” (CCC 1998) — but this allows a “free response to his grace” from “each person” (CCC 600).

If grace is irresistable, there cannot be a free response!

 

[Neithan]

The main challenge to the Irenaean theodicy is still the inductive evidence of gratuitous evil.

• If all evil is entirely determined by God, then why do innocent children suffer horrible crimes?
• Why does evil often lead people further into sin and hatred?
• If our perfection is entirely up to God, why doesn’t he just make us perfect? Clearly, evil and suffering per se are not requirements for perfection, because God is perfect.

I brought this up in another thread. Take a look at the Teaching Defense and the Unknown Purpose Defense.

 

[Mythicalbio]

I will read these threads, I have been meaning to look at the whole series. I want to really know if there even exist a currently knowable solution to the problem of evil, since it’s just something I assume can’t be resolved before death. Whatever the solution though I don’t think it necessarily will require some to be negatively.reprobated (at this point I think either most humans are saved, or all, most being damned I don’t even think of, and annihilation I don’t think is compatible with the dogmas, but Paul J. Griffths, a Catholic theologian wrote a book about it called Decreation).

 

[Neithan]

annihilation I don’t think is compatible with the dogmas, but Paul J. Griffths, a Catholic theologian wrote a book about it called Decreation)

Interesting, I might read that. I’m sure annihilation is not orthodox because that would contradict God’s immutable will, but the damned may end up with such a reduction of existence that it’s pretty close to it. C.S. Lewis (not Catholic, but a respected Christian thinker anyway) alluded to that in a couple of his books, The Great Divorce and Perelandra iirc.