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Peter_J
Guest
Well said.
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Peter_J
Guest
Don’t know, it’s your choice!
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steido01
Guest
This thread reminds me of a blog entry I read a few years back. I’ve asked for clarifications from Catholics before, but I’ve yet to receive a consistent response. Typically, the discussion just devolves into two Catholics bickering whether or not Protestants like me are actually saved. So perhaps I’ll get an answer here:
In short, what ARE we “Separated Brethren” in Rome’s eyes, and what is our prognosis salvation-wise?
In short, what ARE we “Separated Brethren” in Rome’s eyes, and what is our prognosis salvation-wise?
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Peter_J
Guest
I’ll only go see it if it has a scene likeWould make a great movie title thou!
Protestant: I’m not *your *separated brethren, you’re *my *separated brethren.
Catholic: No, I’m not *your *separated brethren, you’re *my *separated brethren.
Protestant: No, I’m not *your *separated brethren, you’re *my *separated brethren.
Catholic: I’m not *your *separated brethren, you’re *my *separated brethren.
Protestant: No, I’m not *your *separated brethren, you’re *my *separated brethren.
Catholic: No, I’m not *your *separated brethren, you’re *my *separated brethren.
Protestant: No, I’m not *your *separated brethren, you’re *my *separated brethren.
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Peter_J
Guest
If they didn’t agree, there are a few steps you can take: Ask them both to show you their diplomas, and make sure they’re from schools certified by the Institute of Salvationometry. Ask if they’ve recently run diagnostics on all their equipment. Get a third opinion.
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Bballer32
Guest
I don’t like people that enjoy this stuff…
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steido01
Guest
You’ve got more pluck than usual today. How many rainbows you seeing in the sky?
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Peter_J
Guest
Nah, just too little will-power to closer this browser and do something off-forum.
Edit: Well the thought of food seems to be a good motivator at least.
Ciao for now.
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FrDavid96
Guest
The blog author is setting up a false dichotomy between Trent and Vatican II.
For example:
either the Roman Catholic Church was right when it narrowly restricted assurance of salvation to being a member of the visible church…; or it is right now when it grants the possibility of true Christians existing outside the visible church
Those are not mutually exclusive. To be assured of salvation (so far as we can ever be “assured”) one must be a member of the Church. Outside of the Church, people can still be Christians (and truly Christian) and have the possibility of salvation but without any such assurance. They are truly Christian, but not completely true-believing Christians.
The Council Fathers at Vatican II knew what Trent taught. They knew it well. They also knew that they were not teaching anything contrary to Trent. We need not reject anything from one Council in order to accept the other Council.
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spedteacherita
Guest
Membership in a church is not assurance for salvation - and I’m sure you know that there may be those in the Catholic as well as any of the Protestant churches who will (or do) have their assurance and those who will not.
I’ve seen some pretty amazing things happen with those who are devout Christians - some more miraculously than others and that in itself shows me of the assurance of salvation as God shows His work among all Christians
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This thread has saddened me as I read through it but I understand as I read thru the list of Pope’s declarations why it should be discussed and the info so carefully disseminated. It’s all saddening to see that there are those who just want to thoroughly cut off those Christians as heretics because they don’t ascribe to the doctrines of the CC.
Those words really don’t entice me to want to become part of the Catholic Church -
Thanks for letting me share my perspective,
God bless,
Rita
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Abu
Guest
Such a false idea has been promulgated and that saddens me too. Thus, just as without Christ there is no salvation, so without the Church there is no salvation. *Catechism of the Catholic Church *# 846 - # 848]. The Catholic Church, regardless of whether or not a person knows of its divine origin and founding, is the body through which ALL salvation comes to anyone whom God deems worthy to receive it.
"By Faith it is to be firmly held that outside the Apostolic Roman Church none can achieve salvation. This is the only ark of salvation. He who does not enter into it will perish in the flood. Nevertheless, equally certainly it is to be held that those who suffer from invincible ignorance of the true religion, are not for this reason guilty in the eyes of the Lord. Now, then, who could presume in himself an ability to set the boundaries of such ignorance, taking into consideration the natural differences of peoples, land, native talents, and so many other factors" (Singulari Quidem, 1863 A.D.). Hence, Pius IX distinguished between those who have knowledge of the Church and Her divine foundation, and those who have no such knowledge due to a number of mitigating circumstances.
Christ’s Church knew from the beginning that non-Catholics could be saved:
Pope St Clement knew that non-Catholics could be saved from the beginning, for he wrote in about 95 A.D. to the Church in Corinth: “Those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God.” Catholic Apologetics Today, 1986, Fr William G Most, p 145].
Extra ecclesiam, nulla salus (literally, “outside the Church, there is no salvation”). Some people have wished to understand this saying in the most literal sense: that is, that the person who is not formally a practicing Catholic cannot be saved. **The Church has condemned such an interpretation **(cf. Denzinger-Schönmetzer, 3870-3873).
This is not to say that the maxim is false. Properly understood, it is quite true. The Latin word extra can mean either “without” or “outside.” The correct interpretation and sense of the maxim is that we cannot be saved without the Church. It is through the Church, which carries on and makes present the salvific work of Jesus Christ in the world, that all who are saved reach heaven (even if it is perhaps only there that they realize it). Those who, through no fault of their own, have never known Christ or his Church can still be saved. But their salvation, too, is the effect of Jesus working through his Church. In a positive sense, this theological principle “means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body” (CCC 846).
Encyclopedia of Catholic Doctrine, OSV].
Even for non-Christians: “Normally, it will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their own conscience that the members of other religions respond positively to God’s invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their Saviour. (cf. Ad gentes, nn. 3, 9, 11)” (Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue – Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples, Instruction Dialogue and Proclamation, 19 May 1991, n. 29; *L’Osservatore Romano *English edition, 1 July 1991, p. III).
[John Paul II General Audience, Wednesday 9 September 1998]
[See: http://outsidethechurchnosalvation.b…bel/Salvation]
“Familiarity” with Catholicism does not necessarily mean that such a state translates into knowing that the Catholic Church is founded by Christ to teach, rule and sanctify mankind. Anyone who knowingly rejects Christ’s means of salvation (His Church) knowingly rejects Him, and condemns himself.
In CCC #848, “the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338 [The reference 338 includes Heb 11:6 saying that God rewards those who believe and diligently seek Him; and 1 Cor 9:16 in which Paul says “woe to me if I do not preach the gospel.”]
The Church is the Pope, Bishops, priests and lay faithful (People of God, the Mystical Body of Christ) all of whom have the obligation to offer the gospel to all according to their formation in the faith and opportunities.
The Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 defined that “The universal Church of the faithful is one, outside of which no one is saved.” The Council of Trent, 1545-1563, pictured by some dissenters as triumphant and absolutist, defined the dogma of baptism by desire thus on to what Vatican II taught: “Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it.” Lumen Gentium, 14 (The Dogmatic Constitution on the Church)]. Here we have a typical development of doctrine.
“Thus the Church is (in its way) as indispensable as Christ for man’s salvation…as a divinely instituted means, provided a person knows that he must use this means to be saved.” (The Catholic Catechism, Fr John A Hardon, SJ, 1974, p 236).
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Mount_Carmel
Guest
Yes, Jesus ordained but one Church, and not many Churches. We, being imperfect humanity have regrettably all too often messed with it, BUT if there is something that appears to any of us as rotten in the ‘wood shed’, it is for us to discuss things appropriately WITHIN the Church, and not to take off and set up something elsewhere.
Yes, many ‘liberties’, such as the fiscal selling of indulgences, and the selling and non-substantiated claims regarding the likes of saint’s body parts and the true cross, did go on, but, as in the case of St. Francis’ call to reform the Church, it should be done so from WITHIN.
Yes, many ‘liberties’, such as the fiscal selling of indulgences, and the selling and non-substantiated claims regarding the likes of saint’s body parts and the true cross, did go on, but, as in the case of St. Francis’ call to reform the Church, it should be done so from WITHIN.
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Peter_J
Guest
Absolutely. But why single out church membership?
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LutheranScholar
Guest
That’s what it kind of comes down to, isn’t it? I’ve heard people talk about this denomination and that denomination and I think a lot of it is glorified corporate competition. Who has the better deal? Who offers the most discounts? Why are we right and you wrong? Perspective has a lot to do with it, too. Would praying to St. Sebastian distract you from going directly to Christ? Is liturgy strictly necessary? I would say “yes” and I’m pretty sure you would, too, but how would a Mennonite or Quaker respond? Then, we have the back and forth we’ve been seeing. These are our writings and you* must *regard them. No, these are our writings and you must regard them. Sometimes, I think the Lord sits on His Throne with His Hand on the side of His Head and with a wry grin on His Face as He hears the cry of His children ascend to heaven in a cloud of bickering.
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Peter_J
Guest
As far as Protestant perspectives go, I think that is a fairly good analysis. But it doesn’t quite speak to RCs or Eastern Orthodox, because we’re neither denominational nor non-denominational.
But getting back to the persuasion-by-repetition … well it’s just sad really. I wonder when people will realize that it doesn’t work unless you use progressively larger fonts and bolder colors.
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steido01
Guest
The most effective font is “excommunication” and the boldest color is “threat of death,” IMO.
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Peter_J
Guest
Well now that’s just silly. 
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LutheranScholar
Guest
Oh,* please! *We saw in Luther’s case how impotent that was.The most effective font is “excommunication” and the boldest color is “threat of death,” IMO.
Luther publicly burned the Bull ( something we should all do at various times in our lives, IMHO) and he had royalty protecting him. tracts.ukgo.com/martin_luther.htmpbs.org/empires/martinluther/char_frederick.html
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Riser
Guest
This is a disturbing thread.
I refer to all who follow Jesus in their lives as brothers and sisters; and now I see that some here would not refer to me in that way.
It is up to God to decide whether or not I am His. It is not up to anyone else.
In all those other threads; questions about why “Protestants hate Catholics” and how one should go about speaking to a Protestant about Catholicism; I see the issue.
Someone determined long ago that I must attend RCIA and be accepted into the Catholic church to be a disciple of Christ. I can’t find that in Scriptures anywhere, and since the earlier word from the Apostles told me what I need to do to be saved, I will go with that.
Whether or not everyone here accepts me, I accept you. You are my brethren.
I refer to all who follow Jesus in their lives as brothers and sisters; and now I see that some here would not refer to me in that way.
It is up to God to decide whether or not I am His. It is not up to anyone else.
In all those other threads; questions about why “Protestants hate Catholics” and how one should go about speaking to a Protestant about Catholicism; I see the issue.
Someone determined long ago that I must attend RCIA and be accepted into the Catholic church to be a disciple of Christ. I can’t find that in Scriptures anywhere, and since the earlier word from the Apostles told me what I need to do to be saved, I will go with that.
Whether or not everyone here accepts me, I accept you. You are my brethren.
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Burdock
Guest
I agree Riser, this is one of the reasons I have left the catholic church, I convertedvin 2011, but because off attitudes like this I have gone back to the Protestant church.
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