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spedteacherita
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Hi, Peter,
I was responding to this statement from Fr. David
Thanks and God bless!!
Rita
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I was responding to this statement from Fr. David
Rita
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spedteacherita
Guest
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Denise1957
Guest
I think that this thread is useful, in that we don’t want, IMO, to turn a blind eye to what the Church has historically taught, even though it might sound offensive to some. The popes before the Council did not claim the Church as the Ark of Salvation because they wanted to condemn heretics, but because they actually CARED about them. We want to state the truth so that our separated brethren (a term I happen to like) will come to know it and understand it.
I also had a difficult time, before converting, with the traditional stance of…“no salvation outside the Church”…but after investigating why this stance exists, I understood it better. Though the Church has historically taught that there is no salvation outside the Church, it also recognizes (as has already been brought up on the thread I think) that the culpability factor also exists, in that Protestants can indeed be saved, not though their respective religion, but in spite of it. If a non-Catholic has not been properly taught the Catholic faith, or if some other impediment exists, then they are not necessarily responsible for not converting. I would also think that the very real situation of a non-Catholic being taught anti-Catholic views would also be a factor. It can be very difficult to overcome having been raised in an anti-Catholic environment.
Regarding someone determining that you should go though RCIA to be accepted in the Catholic Church, and not being able to find this anywhere in scripture, well, Jesus did tell His Apostles to go out and baptize all nations and teach all that He had taught them. ALL that He had them. Jesus never said to just tell everyone to have faith and they’ll be saved. I’d also like to mention that RCIA classes are a relatively new way to teach the Catholic faith to converts. The old way was to meet one-on-one with the priest for instruction, which is a better way, IMO. This is how I converted.
Sorry about the long-winded post!
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Burdock
Guest
Ptotestants ARE christians.
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Denise1957
Guest
Who has said that they aren’t?
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Riser
Guest
I do thank you for your long-winded post.I think that this thread is useful, in that we don’t want, IMO, to turn a blind eye to what the Church has historically taught, even though it might sound offensive to some. The popes before the Council did not claim the Church as the Ark of Salvation because they wanted to condemn heretics, but because they actually CARED about them. We want to state the truth so that our separated brethren (a term I happen to like) will come to know it and understand it.
I also had a difficult time, before converting, with the traditional stance of…“no salvation outside the Church”…but after investigating why this stance exists, I understood it better. Though the Church has historically taught that there is no salvation outside the Church, it also recognizes (as has already been brought up on the thread I think) that the culpability factor also exists, in that Protestants can indeed be saved, not though their respective religion, but in spite of it. If a non-Catholic has not been properly taught the Catholic faith, or if some other impediment exists, then they are not necessarily responsible for not converting. I would also think that the very real situation of a non-Catholic being taught anti-Catholic views would also be a factor. It can be very difficult to overcome having been raised in an anti-Catholic environment.
Regarding someone determining that you should go though RCIA to be accepted in the Catholic Church, and not being able to find this anywhere in scripture, well, Jesus did tell His Apostles to go out and baptize all nations and teach all that He had taught them. ALL that He had them. Jesus never said to just tell everyone to have faith and they’ll be saved. I’d also like to mention that RCIA classes are a relatively new way to teach the Catholic faith to converts. The old way was to meet one-on-one with the priest for instruction, which is a better way, IMO. This is how I converted.
Sorry about the long-winded post!
My Bible tells me what I am to do. I cannot find in it that I must be a member of the Catholic faith in order to obtain salvation. Christianity is not a religion. It is a lifestyle that can be followed by many regardless of their denominational memberships - even those with doctrines which are in error. The Gospel Message is the same. The understanding of the mechanisms was never required in order to be a believer or to accept the King of Kings. Obedience is expected; not complete understanding.
I really do like the concept of RCIA. I wish all churches had such a thing; but the idea that it is required before Baptism is not supported in the Bible. The order given by Jesus is convert, baptize, learn (not convert, learn, baptize). RCIA is a good thing that the Catholic church does, and because we are humans (and by the evidence I see in some Protestant churches), we seem to want to skip the “learn” part all together. Perhaps that is what caused the tradition of learn first and THEN baptize; but that was not an instruction from Jesus.
Skipping the learning of what Jesus taught has caused many errors. However, learning what the church taught has caused Biblical errors. It is fortunate that God sees the heart and does not grade us on a curve. We are either His or we are not.
Sadly, there are those Protestants that condemn Catholics - they fail to show the love for fellow Christians that they should have. The fruit of the Spirit is not evident in them when I see them do this. In my missionary work, I am criticized for working with my Catholic brethren in planting seeds to make disciples. I have not yet personally experienced condemnation from Catholics for working with Protestant brethren; but now I see from some posts here that I probably am. The end result is that people from both groups in our area refuse to participate with us in our goal.
Where is Jesus in all this? He is working His will during our efforts. People are either coming to Him or the seed is planted in them. Need more proof that God accepts our group; Protestant and Catholic together?
I don’t.
Until God shows me that we are wrong in this; we will press on. He decides who are His.
God Bless my brethren all Christian denominations. Dona nobis Pacem.
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Denise1957
Guest
I appreciate your thoughtful post. Regarding the bible telling you what to do, where did Jesus state that this was the primary means by which we know what to do? Jesus never wrote anything down, and he did not instruct his apostles to do so either. That came later.
I agree that obedience is expected, but to what exactly? There are many differing opinions as to what instruction by Jesus should be followed…or not. For instance, Jesus clearly gave a commandment against divorce, but many Protestant denoms allow it. The Catholic Church takes very seriously the commandments by Jesus.
How is it that learning what the Church has taught (which you mentioned above) has caused biblical errors, if you don’t mind me asking? I agree that God does see our heart, but he was clear that we are not to sin.
Our Lord Jesus said to Simon Peter…“upon this rock I shall build my Church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.” The name “Peter” actually means “rock” in the language that Jesus used. Jesus changed Simon’s name from Simon BarJona (which means: Simon, son of John) to Simon Peter.
Jesus did start a Church (singular, not plural). He expected His Apostles to go out and teach all that He had taught them, and the Catholic Church has always striven to do what Jesus said to do. Not always perfectly, of course. It’s my belief that God wants all Christians to be Catholic, and to therefore have the fullness of what our Lord wanted and taught and expects of us. I don’t expect non-Catholics to agree with me, though. It’s okay if they (and you also) don’t agree with that.
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Riser
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You may be surprised to know that you and I are in harmony on the things you have written.I appreciate your thoughtful post. Regarding the bible telling you what to do, where did Jesus state that this was the primary means by which we know what to do? Jesus never wrote anything down, and he did not instruct his apostles to do so either. That came later.
I agree that obedience is expected, but to what exactly? There are many differing opinions as to what instruction by Jesus should be followed…or not. For instance, Jesus clearly gave a commandment against divorce, but many Protestant denoms allow it. The Catholic Church takes very seriously the commandments by Jesus.
How is it that learning what the Church has taught (which you mentioned above) has caused biblical errors, if you don’t mind me asking? I agree that God does see our heart, but he was clear that we are not to sin.
Our Lord Jesus said to Simon Peter…“upon this rock I shall build my Church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.” The name “Peter” actually means “rock” in the language that Jesus used. Jesus changed Simon’s name from Simon BarJona (which means: Simon, son of John) to Simon Peter.
Jesus did start a Church (singular, not plural). He expected His Apostles to go out and teach all that He had taught them, and the Catholic Church has always striven to do what Jesus said to do. Not always perfectly, of course. It’s my belief that God wants all Christians to be Catholic, and to therefore have the fullness of what our Lord wanted and taught and expects of us. I don’t expect non-Catholics to agree with me, though. It’s okay if they (and you also) don’t agree with that.
You are correct in that we have no scripture that was penned by Jesus. He told his disciples to teach all that He commanded. Who were His disciples? Who penned His words for us?
Actually, my favorite book of the New Testament is Matthew followed by John. I take it seriously that they were Apostles of the risen Lord. And, since we are to understand that we are to establish fact upon the testimony of two or three witnesses, we have also Mark and Luke.
I, and many others from my perspective, have not chosen to ignore any of the teachings of Jesus. We do not even consider divorce unless Jesus accepts it. Not all Protestants permit divorce - and still it may be more than the number of divorced Catholics; I don’t know. However, it is not because “Protestants” believe in divorce. They don’t go ask the church for permission first. I’m sure some of them would have a Biblical reason, but not hardly all.
As far as Jesus stating in Matthew that He established His church on Peter’s work. Peter was the apparent leader of the disciples. The disciples started the missionary and ministry that became the church that Jesus built. The promotion of the succession of “Peter’s” is not given in scripture. What we are told is that Jesus is the head of the church, so it seems rational to lean on Him rather than upon a man for leadership.
It is also my conviction that Jesus wants all his sheep to be catholic (one body universally), so that is the direction my ministry goes. Each church with a name has stumbled along the way since it came into being. They - as bodies of people who claim to follow Christ - have sinned many times while following their chosen leaders. I don’t think that any church has the right to claim perfection in faith and teaching. If they could, these sinful actions would not be in their historical records.
Many of us seek God and desire to be righteous in our lives, and it takes prayer, devotion to Jesus, time, and effort to reach for that goal. We have only one lifetime to get there, and I wasted most of mine already.
It is good that you don’t require that I agree with you. Is it not presumptuous to assume that I don’t have “the fullness of what our Lord wanted and taught and expects of us?” I don’t know how you might qualify the truth of that assumption for my life. Or is it that someone told you that I can’t have that since I am not a member of the Catholic church?
May God bless your home and your church.
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Denise1957
Guest
I’ll try to address a few of the things you’ve stated above. Firstly, regarding the subject of divorce, are there any Protestant churches that disallow it? The Catholic Church does not allow a Catholic to receive the sacrament of Holy Communion if they’ve been divorced. They can still attend Mass, of course. My point is that our Church does not allow it. How many Protestant churches can say the same thing? Whether there are more Protestants or Catholics who are divorced is not really the issue. People are either going to go by what their church teaches…or not. What’s important is what that church teaches, whether the rule is followed or not. Jesus did not allow for divorce.
As far as I know, Jesus did not say that he was starting a Church on St. Peter’s work. He was starting it on St. Peter, as the leader of His church on earth. A pope is a pope, regardless of what sort of work he does as a pope. There have been saintly popes, and not-so-saintly popes. We all know that, and it doesn’t change the office of the papacy one bit. Jesus is indeed the head of the Catholic Church, and the Pope is his vicar. Someone has to be in charge. As far as the promotion of succession not being given in scripture, well, not all of the Catholic faith is given in Scripture, as I’m sure you know. It is also given in tradition.
As to a church claiming perfection in faith and teaching, I don’t think that perfection is required. We are human, and therefore subject to sinfulness. The Catholic Church still stands, and still teaches basically the same thing since the early days of Christianity. The Church strives to teach what is required for our salvation, because that’s what it’s all about, really. That, and caring for others.
As far as it being presumptuous and assuming that you don’t have the fullness of the faith, I don’t presume anything on a personal level, nor do I intend to being it down to a personal level, so you’re out of luck if you hope to go there, because I’ll not engage in that sort of debate. I stick to what the Church teaches.
God bless!
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Peter_J
Guest
For the record, do you also “believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church”?
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Abu
Guest
Jesus Himself mandated: “if he refuses to hear even the Church let him be like the heathen and a publican.” (Mt 18:17). How can the Christ mandate that you listen to the Church and mere fallible mortals “disagree” with Him?
False.
“CHRISTIANITY. The religion of Jesus Christ. It is a composite of the faith he inspired, the teachings and moral practices he communicated, the spirituality he urged on his followers, and the consequent form of civilization which for two millennia have been called Christian. It is above all the objective principles of belief, worship, and human conduct that give substance to this civilization, which is only as Christian as these principles are known and put into practice.”
Modern Catholic Dictionary
by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.
“RELIGION. The moral virtue by which a person is disposed to render to God the worship and service he deserves. It is sometimes identified with the virtue of justice toward God, whose rights are rooted in his complete dominion over all creation. Religion is also a composite of all the virtues that arise from a human being’s relationship to God as the author of his or her being, even as love is a cluster of all the virtues arising from human response to God as the destiny of his or her being. Religion thus corresponds to the practice of piety toward God as Creator of the universe. (Etym. probably Latin religare, to tie, fasten, bind, or relegere, to gather up, treat with care.)”
therealpresence.org/cgi-bin/getdefinition.pl
The Christ gave us His Catholic Church – She authorized and gave us the Sacred Scriptures as the Word of God.
To follow Christ as He wills is to assent ot the teaching of His Church.
All four promises to Peter alone:
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.” ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19) [Later, also to the twelve].
Sole authority:
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).
To whom else did Jesus give that supreme authority?
“That we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness by which they lie in wait to deceive.” (Eph 4:14). Further, “For there will come a time when they will not endure the sound doctrine; but having itching ears, will heap up to themselves teachers according to their lusts. And they will turn away their hearing from the truth and turn aside rather to fables.” (2 Tim 4:3).
So, yes obedience is expected, but remarriage after divorce, contraception, abortion, euthanasia, IVF, cloning, lack of the priesthood – all contribute to turning away from the truth and encouraging fables in their “lifestyles”.
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7_Sorrows
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I am divorced and still receive Holy Communion.
I am not remarried or in another relationship. So you might want to be clear about that.
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Denise1957
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Thank you for mentioning this. You’re right, I should have been more clear.
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dronald
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Can someone who divorces and re marries ever have communion again?
Sorry, I’m not clear on the rules!
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Matthew_Light
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If the first marriage is granted a declaration of nullity, then yes. That means the Catholic Church finds that the first marriage was not really a marriage because of a qualifying issue with one or both parties, or between them, when the marriage was formed.Can someone who divorces and re marries ever have communion again?
Sorry, I’m not clear on the rules!
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Bballer32
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dronald
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And if it’s not then never, correct?
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eightydeuce82
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If its not a marriage then you are free to get married.
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eightydeuce82
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If it is found to be a marriage then you are stuck forever (or until that person dies)
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spedteacherita
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