If they don’t want an abortion, they don’t need to be convinced not to have one. If they do want one, that is why we need laws to protect the unborn, so they can’t murder or hire someone to murder their unborn child. This way it doesn’t matter if she wants one or not, the child is not aborted.I suppose that is one way of looking at it. Another is to see if they really want to have an abortion and if they dont, convince them not to have one.
If she didn’t choose to abort, then somebody chose for her.You missed the point completly.
She did not want to have an abortion, but her state of mind would not allow her to make that choice.
Aside from this being pure speculation, it does not excuse the individual who performed the abortion.She wasnt able to think rationally because of the rejection from the boyfriend and her already low self worth, she thinks have the abortion because she is so useless that she wouldnt be able to look after children anyway (she might have even believed that her boyfriend tolde her that with his rejection).
I cant believe that you actually stated that. Aside from the mentally ill aspect, there are plenty of women who get abortions even though they dont actually want them. They convince themselves that it is the right thing to do or their only option.If they don’t want an abortion, they don’t need to be convinced not to have one.
Like I have already stated, I am not arguing the “abortion issue” argument. Stop trying to force me to, because it wont work.If they do want one, that is why we need laws to protect the unborn, so they can’t murder or hire someone to murder their unborn child. This way it doesn’t matter if she wants one or not, the child is not aborted.
That simply shows your ignorance of mental health, as well as what others post. Its already been explained.If she didn’t choose to abort, then somebody chose for her.
Actually it would be more of an educated guess or theory, going by what the article stated, what deb1 expressed about her experience and my own experence.Aside from this being pure speculation, it does not excuse the individual who performed the abortion.
You are mixing up aspects of persuasion. If somebody doesn’t want something, they don’t need to be convinced not to want it. The correct argument is to say they shouldn’t be convinced to want it. If she didn’t want one and got one, somebody convinced her to have one. Obviously if she were mentally ill to the point of not being able to make her own decision, than someone decided for her.I cant believe that you actually stated that. Aside from the mentally ill aspect, there are plenty of women who get abortions even though they dont actually want them. They convince themselves that it is the right thing to do or their only option.
My conviction on abortion is absolutely clear. I will state it plain for you. Abortion is murder, it should be outlawed and treated as murder. Work to inspire and motivate others about the intrinsic wrongness of abortion should be strived for in addition to having government recognize the humanity of the unborn. So now, what should I know?You are a pro-life person, you should know this.
What is your conviction?Like I have already stated, I am not arguing the “abortion issue” argument. Stop trying to force me to, because it wont work.
No it doesn’t. If someone is incapable of deciding something for themself, someone else has to decide for them. However, neither her nor anyone else should be able to decide she could get an abortion.That simply shows your ignorance of mental health, as well as what others post. Its already been explained.
Maybe you should have another read of what you are replying to.You are mixing up aspects of persuasion. If somebody doesn’t want something, they don’t need to be convinced not to want it. The correct argument is to say they shouldn’t be convinced to want it. If she didn’t want one and got one, somebody convinced her to have one.
Actually that isnt true. I have already explained that (a few times) but you refuse to understand that. I dont know how else to explain it to you.Obviously if she were mentally ill to the point of not being able to make her own decision, than someone decided for her.
Yes I know, that is why I said that you are a pro-life person.My conviction on abortion is absolutely clear.
You already have, I got it the first time.I will state it plain for you.
Go read the post again.So now, what should I know?
My conviction?What is your conviction?
Sadly, it does. Your next sentence shows that.No it doesn’t.
She was unable to choose what she wanted (not having the abortion) because her deperssion would not allow her to do so. If you read post #94, it describes what depression is like and gives a rough idea of how it feels.If someone is incapable of deciding something for themself, someone else has to decide for them.
Okay,Maybe you should have another read of what you are replying to.
Another is to see if they really want to have an abortion and if they dont, convince them not to have one
If they don’t want an abortion, they don’t need to be convinced not to have one.
I cant believe that you actually stated that. Aside from the mentally ill aspect, there are plenty of women who get abortions even though they dont actually want them.
I had another read of what I replied to. Now what?You are mixing up aspects of persuasion. If somebody doesn’t want something, they don’t need to be convinced not to want it. The correct argument is to say they shouldn’t be convinced to want it. If she didn’t want one and got one, somebody convinced her to have one.
That’s good to know. Of course you won’t answer the question, or is it supposed to be an attempt at humor? If not, maybe look up the word conviction in the dictionary.My conviction?
I have not even been arrested for anything, I dont have a conviction.
You are saying she was unable to choose what she wanted because of her mental illness. Not being able to choose not to have an abortion means what, it defaults to having an abortion? Does everyone get an abortion unless they specifically choose not to have one? You cannot deny that either she chose toShe was unable to choose what she wanted (not having the abortion) because her deperssion would not allow her to do so. If you read post #94, it describes what depression is like and gives a rough idea of how it feels.
I really dont know.Okay,
I had another read of what I replied to. Now what?
No I am serious, I have not been arrested.That’s good to know. Of course you won’t answer the question, or is it supposed to be an attempt at humor? If not, maybe look up the word conviction in the dictionary.
Stop trying to twist my words.You are saying she was unable to choose what she wanted because of her mental illness. Not being able to choose not to have an abortion means what, it defaults to having an abortion?
What?Does everyone get an abortion unless they specifically choose not to have one?
I dont think that I am actually dening that she chose to have an abortion, I think its more a case of choosing something that she didnt want to do and convincing herself that it was for the best.You cannot deny that either she chose to have an abortion OR someone decided for her in her inability.
Given the concession that abortion played a role in her suicide, why do you avoid it so much.Just in case you still cant understand that, no.
Yes. Perhaps because it was not there.There is a reason for that.
You keep decrying mental illness over the abortions, yet the article cited in the original post makes no mention of mental illness.As much as people say that abortion is pushed aside, it is moreso with mental illness (Unless it has to do with someone shooting up a school, then the negative side is focused on).
Actually…no mention.People dont want to know about, much less talk about, mental illness. So I am not suprised that it got a small mention in that article.
Not as such mentioned in the article.You do realise that depression and anxiety are actually mental illnessess (or mental instabilities)?
Read the article. Depression is mentioned. Anxiety is mentioned. Mental instability is not.Depression is the polar opposite of manic (which is where you get bipolar disorder, or manic depression from), both have different symptoms and effect a person in very different ways. So no a doctor would not be refering to mania by saying depression.
No doubt. But by themselves they do not indicate mental illness.The two illnessess cited are not broad in the slightest (in the way that you describe it), they are about as broad as tonsilitis or being pregnant.
They are not as dismissable as you suggest and they probably had a part in her decision to have the abortion and there is no doubt that they played a part in her suicide.
Perhaps you have a point here.If you want to prevent abortions, then it might be an idea to understand this. It offers an insight into why some people have abortions, understanding this means that you are better able to possibly persuade them not to have the abortion.
As I stated before, depression and anxiety are mental illnessess. She had a history of both.Yes. Perhaps because it was not there.
You keep decrying mental illness over the abortions, yet the article cited in the original post makes no mention of mental illness.
Actually…no mention.
They are mental instabilistes in their own right.Not as such mentioned in the article.
Depression and anxiety may be symptoms of a larger problem, but they do not necessarily indicate mental instability.
Yest I know that, I was responding to you assertion that the doctor could have been refering to manic when she said depression. I was informing you of the impossibilty of such an assertion since manic and depression are polar opposites of each other.Read the article. Depression is mentioned. Anxiety is mentioned. Mental instability is not.
Manic is not.
Bipolar disorder is not.
About depression and anxiety?Where are you getting this stuff?
THEY ARE MENTAL ILLNESSESS.No doubt. But by themselves they do not indicate mental illness.
Sigh…yes I already stated that, but there you seem to be asserting that depression and anxiety are mental illnessess.Perhaps you have a point here.
People shpould be made to realize that abortion can lead to depression, anxiety, and ultimately suicide.
However there is the matter of the suicide note that was left indicating the abortions.Unfortunatly abortion isnt the only cause for these things, otherwise it would be quite easy to eradicate.
At the risk of being lectured about ‘stupid questions’ again, I feel that I must ask you to state you position in absolute terms.THEY ARE MENTAL ILLNESSESS.
If you are going to argue about what a mental illness is, at least read up on the topic and find out about what you are arguing.
I am not sure what you think that you know, but its nothing about mental illness.
is indicative of mental illness, and not indicative of emtional state?“She had a long history of anxiety and depression. Despite my best efforts, she was not willing to see a counsellor after the termination.”
No…what I assert is that there is not enough information provided in the article to arrive at the diagnosis.Sigh…yes I already stated that, but there you seem to be asserting that depression and anxiety are mental illnessess.
The answer was already given and was quite clear.At the risk of being lectured about ‘stupid questions’ again, I feel that I must ask you to state you position in absolute terms.
The answer has already been given.So a simple yes or no will suffice here.
Is it your position that the mention in the article concerning her emotional state, specificly:
is indicative of mental illness, and not indicative of emtional state?
Until just recently you were arguing that depression and anxiety were not mental illnessess. Suddenly that appears to have changed (why is that).No…what I assert is that there is not enough information provided in the article to arrive at the diagnosis.
As I have stated many times now (many, many times) there is more to this topic than just her abortion.There is however plenty of evidence to indicate that it was the abortions that led to her suicide.
How base of you.Liar.
No…perhaps you have misread my posts.Until just recently you were arguing that depression and anxiety were not mental illnessess. Suddenly that appears to have changed (why is that).
Apparently I have been misreading your posts.As I have stated many times now (many, many times) there is more to this topic than just her abortion.
The abortion was part of it, her mental health was part of it (before and after), the lead up to her abortion was part of it, her relationship break up was part of it.
I’d say it’s evidence of medical malpractice – over and above the immorality of that grisly crime – the person performing the abortion had a duty to evaluate her. If he did, with her “long history of anxiety and depression” he should have refused the procedure.Quote:
“She had a long history of anxiety and depression. Despite my best efforts, she was not willing to see a counsellor after the termination.”
Correct – more evidence that abortion is a political, not a medical procedure. Again and again, we see women and girls aborted with no thought about the aftereffects.No…what I assert is that there is not enough information provided in the article to arrive at the diagnosis.
There is however plenty of evidence to indicate that it was the abortions that led to her suicide.
I am uncertain I would say political. I believe the abortion industry is all about the money. Not the welfare of the women they claim to help.Correct – more evidence that abortion is a political, not a medical procedure. Again and again, we see women and girls aborted with no thought about the aftereffects.
Those are the politics to which I referred – some support abortion for money, others from a twisted sense of “rights.”I am uncertain I would say political. I believe the abortion industry is all about the money. Not the welfare of the women they claim to help.
The only politics I see are those necessary to secure the ‘right’ to murder the unborn.
[/QUOTE]No…perhaps you have misread my posts.
So you are going back to the depression and anxiety are not mental illnessess argument.No you posts were pretty clear.
That is only if you choose to ignore other things in the article.There is not enough information in the article to arrive at any further conclusion.
They were not even mentioning the abortion in this issue.To attempt to construe people that mention only the abortions when speaking of this tragedy as having no compassion is reading far more into both the post and the article then is written there.
There is no “apparently” about it.Apparently I have been misreading your posts.
Because you are still misreading what I posted. I did nothing of the sort.It appears from the first several posts that you have written in this thread that you want to de-emphasize the role the abortions played in this suicide. In fact, you didn’t want them mentioned at all.
I wasnt aware that statistics on womens deaths during an abortion, what they teach nurses, a story about a difrerent woman who is still alive, comparisons to Nurenberg were actually related to this particular topic.You even took to calling some people’s pro-life remarks ‘spiel’ in a most derogatory way.
Now how exactly suggesting that another thread be opened to discuss these things is “derogatoroy”, I dont know.
I am sure that you meant:I am pleased that you agree with us that these abortions led to her suicide.
“I am pleased that you agree with us that these abortions played a part in her suicide.”
Because that is what I have been expressing all along, that is what you have been arguing against.
Unfortunatly, I am not actually sure what you mean when you say “tragedy”.There is no way to know with absolute certainty, but if abortion were illegal, I for one am quite certain this tragedy would have never happened.
I wouldnt exactly describe depression as “the culture of death”, but it can lead to taking your own life.She is yet another victim to the culture of death.