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mlchance
Guest
If you don’t want people responding to your posts, perhaps not posting is a better solution than getting into a flamewar with another member?
– Mark L. Chance.
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– Mark L. Chance.
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Elric
Guest
There is truth in what you say.
Im just letting them know I wont discuss things with them, perhaps other posters could have shown their disaproval at such comments as well?
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Swan
Guest
Yes! I agree with you 100%. I understand perfectly what you are saying and have no idea why folks are being so hard on you - in case, as you suggest, they are so hung up on the abortion issue that they can’t see past it.
To those of you giving Elric a hard time - I suffer from manic-depression. I’ve been hospitalized for suicidal depression. My father killed himself. As a result, I might very well have a perspective most of you don’t when it comes to mental illness and suicide. I also had an abortion long ago. Somehow I’ll bet that I have more in common with the deceased than anyone else on this thread, and I think Elric makes perfect sense. Do any of you know anything about depression and mental illness? This woman was probably manic-depressive (we now refer to this as bipolar disorder), many artisitic types are (including my dad). Bipolar folks are really good at appearing normal as long as we aren’t in the extremes of our mood swings and perhaps this is what happened in this case - the medical personnel didn’t realize she had BP. I once had a therapist who shared her concern with me that I knew all the right things to say to convince people I was fine and I’m sure this poor woman did too. There is also the stigma of mental illness that makes a lot of us wary of admitting our problems. In other words, there are a lot of facts to mental illness that have nothing to do with abortion though I’m sure that her abortion played a role in her suicide. It’s tempting to wrap up all of her mental problems in the abortion issue but it is probably a mistake to do so. Sadly, BP folks kill themselves fairly often and most haven’t had an abortion. Oh, one more thing. Having had my dad die by suicide I can tell you that her family is dealing with more than just a death. Losing someone to suicide is in a class by itself. Pease, look at the bigger picture and don’t just focus on an aspect of this woman’s life that you feel makes a good pro-life soundbite.
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mapleoak
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You sure do a lot of arguing for not making any arguments.
Yes I will have to admit, I have no idea what your viewpoint is, or what your argument is about.
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Elric
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Can you stop with this mis-quoting stuff, its not getting anywhere.
Its off topic, pointless and frankly boring.
How about commenting on the suggestions that I made?
Yes I know you dont.
And that means that you are trolling because you are trying to provoke people without understanding what their opinion is. It also shows that you have been dishonest and deceitful by attacking me/my opinion without understanding it.
The question is: Do you want to know what my point of view is?
If you do, then re-read the last bit in post #63. It an attempt to simplify my objection and opinion.
If you have any questions, for goodness sake ask them instead of continuing this pointless bickering.
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mapleoak
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It illustrated the point perfectly.
No, it illustrates that you have been talking in riddles and purposely making your point of view elusive (as in betcha can’t guess what my point of view is).
Maybe the one requesting a congenial attitude from others should not open with slams, put downs, and the like to begin with.
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Elric
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Illustrates what point?
Sigh… No I have not been “talking in riddles”, I think that I have been pretty straight foward in with point of view (Did you read the last bit of post #62 like I suggested, or the suggestions that I put foward?). I have not been elusive with my point of view, well I have not really had the oppotunity to do so, because nobody has really tried to argue my point of view.
You have been too busy making threats about my previous post history (which actually justifies my point of view) and trying to make my opinion on this topic into something that it isnt.
What I am expressing doesnt fit into your “abortion issue” comfort zone because I am not arguing about that, but that just doesnt seem to compute. So you would rather read things into what I state, mis-quote what I have stated and come up with baseless acusations/speculation about what I am expressing.
Frankly I dont even need to be elusive, your speculations and false assumptions are doing fine on their own.
Its gotten to the point where this is way off topic, again, leaving this important topic undiscussed.
Honestly, do you have something constructive to say?
These sort of false accusations are simply pointless and show that you are simply trolling.
I gave you a good oppotunity to move on from this rubbish and get back on topic, to ask about my opinion and how I think this situation could have been prevented. But you chose not to take it and continue with this petty squabbling.
If you dont have anything constructive to add, just dont reply.
I am uncertain how it is that the conclusion that people are so hung up on the abortion that they cannot see past it within this thread.
I have seen numerous posts throughout the thread that addressed the suicide victim. In some, they question if she could be considered a martyr. Hardly words of one that cannot see past the abortions.
I have read many praying specificly for the suicide victim…again hardly the act of one that cannot see through the abortions.
My apologies if there are people so sensitive to the topic of abortion that they cannot bear to link it with the suicide; but in this case, it is linked.
Cries that the people in this thread have no compassion for the suicide victim ring hollow when compared to the numerous posts that show otherwise.
The hardness addressed to Elric have to do specificly with the accusations made concerning where people on this thread place their compassion. Elric has accused everyone on this thread of ‘using’ this tragedy to further their own agenda.
This is hardly the case. It would appear that Elric simply wants to seperate out the suicide from the abortion. That we should not mention at all the abortion. That we should instead believe that the suicide had to do solely with mental instability…and not at all with abortion. Then there are the misquotes, mischaracterizations, and the rudeness with which other members here are being addressed.
Consider…When a simple yes or no question was asked of Elric, the answer was never forthcoming. Instead there was a diatribe given concerning how ‘stupid’ the question was.
To date, the question has not been answered.
Glad to hear that you are not being elusive.
So…Do you posit then that the abortion played no role at all in her suicide?
A simple yes or no will suffice.
You have yet to say. You keep implying things, but I need to know for certain.
Were one to actually read the post in question, it is readily discernable that I was not writing about the woman in question on this thread. I was writing about your opinions and reactions to others. You seem to insist that we tie in mental instability with every post whether or not it is appropriate.
In that particular post, it was wildly inappropriate. But it was also at your own insistance.
A revisit of the quote in question may help here…
Indeed it is your call. I certainly do not know one way or the other.
And indeed I do not. There is some discomfort in discussing your opinions while at the same time hearing you insist that I include mental instability in the conversation.
Now…can we simply drop this line of conversation and move on to something more constructive?
I believe there is a question concerning the culpability of the suicide victim on the table here…Any thoughts?
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Swan
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I am sorry you do not understand. It is clear to me that you misread my post. You quoted the first sentences of a long, heart felt post dealing with my personal experience with abortion, depression and suicide which I feel clearly expressed my thoughts. I have clearly been closer to where this woman was than most and offered my experience as food for thought - what you do with it and how you chose to interpret it is up to you. I think the fact that you could read my post and comment only on the first part while evidently ignoring my painful experience demosntrates the validity of the comments made by Elric and myself. No one is saying the aboriton was not an issue. Indeed, both Elric and I specifically stated that it was no doubt a part of the woman’s depression. We did say that as she had a history of mental health issues that there was undoubtably more to it. As for culpability - it is my feeling, again from personal experience, that depression renders the sufferer irrational and thus unable to make a rational decision regarding the taking of one’s own life - regardless of whether or not one has had an abortion. Mental illness is like any other illness. Though I would point out that you do not seem interested, nor does anyone else on this thread, in the issue of the woman’s mental illness, only the fact that she had an abortion (as a sufferer myself it is clear to me that the woman’s history of depression played a big part in her chosing to have the abortion in the first place - another issue that no one had addressed). No one has even mentioned mental illess, the stigma attached, the suffering, etc. except Elric and I. I do not intend to debate the issue further with you. My post was based on personal pain that I only brought up in the hopes that it would further understanding of depression and suicide.
Actually, I found your post rather eloquent, and it prompted a re-read of the article mentioned in the original post.
While you and Elric may be the only two to be decrying her possible mental instability, perhaps it should be pointed out that the only mention at all in the article concerning her mental history was as follows:
You may wish to read into this ‘mental instability’ that is right to do so; and practical experience may have inclined you to see it that way.
I do not see it, my practical experience has taught me that the words used to describe her condition describe a very broad range of mental capacity. The may mean manic, they could simply mean depressed.
Therefore I see no need to make mention of mental instability when mentioning her abortions and susequent suicide.
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Elric
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Elric
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There is a reason for that.
As much as people say that abortion is pushed aside, it is moreso with mental illness (Unless it has to do with someone shooting up a school, then the negative side is focused on).
People dont want to know about, much less talk about, mental illness. So I am not suprised that it got a small mention in that article.
You do realise that depression and anxiety are actually mental illnessess (or mental instabilities)?
Depression is the polar opposite of manic (which is where you get bipolar disorder, or manic depression from), both have different symptoms and effect a person in very different ways. So no a doctor would not be refering to mania by saying depression.
Being depressed and having depression are two very different things that are not actually related. Being depressed is a perfectly natural emotion while at times unpleseant, it is short term and is caused by something. Depression is none of these things, it doesnt require a cause to trigger it (for example: waking up in the morning is sufficent) it fluctuates (eg: you can have a couple of good days followed by a couple of bad weeks) and is long term (it can last the rest of a persons life).
It also effects your decision making abilities, how you percieve things and your self confidence. Think of someone constantly telling you that you are worthless, useless, nobody wants you around, nobody cares what you think or feel, you cause nothing but pain and grief to everyone. With no relief from that and you are the only one who can hear this, that is what depression is like.
Depression has lows that are far worse than being depressed (think of the worst day that you have had and times that by 10 and thing of it being constant with no relief. Then you will be getting a rough idea of what depression is)
and is a cippling illness. Again a doctor would not be refering to being depressed by saying depression.
The two illnessess cited are not broad in the slightest (in the way that you describe it), they are about as broad as tonsilitis or being pregnant.
They are not as dismissable as you suggest and they probably had a part in her decision to have the abortion and there is no doubt that they played a part in her suicide.
If you want to prevent abortions, then it might be an idea to understand this. It offers an insight into why some people have abortions, understanding this means that you are better able to possibly persuade them not to have the abortion.
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deb1
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Depression did play a part in this woman’s suicide. Yes, that is true. But if doctors know that having an abortion can cause many women to be depressed then a woman who already suffers from depression should be given even more help if she has an abortion.
In the article, one of the drs(can’t remember exact words) admitted that abortion was a life changing event in a woman’s life. If the medical community already understands that abortion is an emotional event then why not have safe guards in place to ensure that events like this don’t happen.
Britan already has nurses who visit the mother after the birth of a child, why not have nurses visit after an abortion?
I’ve known pregnant women whose past depressions made drs pay closer attention after they give birth for signs of postpartum. Why wouldn’t the same hold true for an abortion?
In the article, one of the drs(can’t remember exact words) admitted that abortion was a life changing event in a woman’s life. If the medical community already understands that abortion is an emotional event then why not have safe guards in place to ensure that events like this don’t happen.
Britan already has nurses who visit the mother after the birth of a child, why not have nurses visit after an abortion?
I’ve known pregnant women whose past depressions made drs pay closer attention after they give birth for signs of postpartum. Why wouldn’t the same hold true for an abortion?
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Elric
Guest
I completly agree and think that if they know the womans history then they should be able to not allow her to have the abortion, if they think that it is going to make her a danger to herself and/or others.
If the doctors didnt have access to her medical history, then they should have had access to it. They should have a psychologist on hand to help.
The more I think about it, the more I dont really think that it was her that chose to have the abortion but rather her illness (these illnessess can make you decide to do some stupid things). A psychologist could identify that and help her realise what was going on.
Primarily because mental health doesnt get the funding that it needs.
Austraila has the same thing, I guess its funding.
Maybe they do but can only go so far. But it would be smart to keep tabs on them.
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deb1
Guest
I think that her boyfriend’s actions played a part also. He indicated that he didn’t want the twins.
Unmarried women at the very beginning of their pregnancies are very vulnerable. I know that if my then exboyfriend(now happily married almost 20 years
) hadn’t stepped up to the plate when I discovered that I was pregnant I might have very well have gotten an abortion.
I do not suffer from depression normally but I was overwhelmed at the prospect of ending college, and being a single parent.
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mapleoak
Guest
No, they should not allow her to have the abortion period, medical history or not, mental illness or not. I completely expected the diversion in this thread to be intended to be able to switch from arguing from the platform of ‘abortion is intrinsically evil and should never be performed’ to a platform of ‘abortion may not be a good idea if the mother has mental illness’.
To do what? Determine whether or not to perform an abortion?
She obviously did not perform her own abortion. Someone did it for her. Her culpability in the matter lies in with her mental state. It is in no way an excuse for a murder having taken place.
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Elric
Guest
I think that his reaction was the trigger that sent her down that road, it certainly would have encouraged the low self worth.
I wonder if she was on medication?
I cant fully imagine what it would be like, never being pregnant and being male, But I believe that you would feel vulnerable because it is a life changing event. Telling the father (and you own parents) I think would make you feel quite exposed. I am really glad that your now husband did the right thing by you and you child.Unmarried women at the very beginning of their pregnancies are very vulnerable. I know that if my then exboyfriend(now happily married almost 20 years
It makes me want to cry thinking about how that poor woman was feeling and how alone she believed that she was.
BTW: thank you for your understanding.
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Elric
Guest
What are you talking about?
I have been saying she shouldnt have had the abortion all along, there has not been a diversion.
I suppose that is one way of looking at it. Another is to see if they really want to have an abortion and if they dont, convince them not to have one.
You missed the point completly.
She did not want to have an abortion, but her state of mind would not allow her to make that choice. She wasnt able to think rationally because of the rejection from the boyfriend and her already low self worth, she thinks have the abortion because she is so useless that she wouldnt be able to look after children anyway (she might have even believed that her boyfriend tolde her that with his rejection).
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