Artist hangs herself after aborting her twins

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Once again unforunately it goes back to what is considered life by the law. The law doesn’t see the “fetus” as they say as a life in comparison to those already born.

Unless that baby is killed in an assault… then it is very much a “human” and the suspect is guilty of murder. At least our, “lawmakers” are being consistent.

Well, actually I said the argument centers not just on being born, but also on vwhen there is the ability to live outside the womb.

I just had a very beautiful niece born last year and in four months my own child will be born. One thing that struck me as I watched my brother and his wife care for their child is how dependent that child was on them. Warmth, food, everything. In fact I would go so far to say that that little baby would not have survived outside the womb without her parents. A year later that child could still not care for itself without its parents. So since this child still needs its parents, and cannot live outside the womb with out their aid should they be allowed to dispose of her? Seeing as how that baby would have an inability to live outside the womb? Also there are some severely disabled people who cannot “live outside the womb” with out the care of others, lets end their lives while we are at it. If life is determined by the ability to survive… we are all in big trouble because I don’t think any of us will survive this world forever.

A person can argue that a 10 week “fetus” can’t survive, but they can’t argue a 28 weeker couldn’t survive and that surviving baby would obviously have “life”.

And I argue that a baby can’t survive on its own until it is, well lets say 5 years since we are just throwing numbers out. So a women should have a choice to dispose of their children until they no longer need her care. Seems fair doesn’t it?

We can do that as Catholics, but athiests may not agree, and the law is going to side with “freedom” and choice.

It is strange how “nice” this all seems when we dress it up with words like, “freedom” and “choice”. What if I substituted it with the word murder?

The way the law it set up, they have “freedom” to do what they want with the law and we have “freedom” to do what we want and believe in.

There were certain laws in Germany from about 1933 to 1945, so can I argue that Hitler used his, “freedom” and his “choice” to dispose of those who he believe were “less human”? Remember the “way that the law was set up” in Germany was that the Jewish people were less human.

well, I am not talking about being human, I am talking about unquestionable proof that there is life, and that is with being born.

So then you are saying that it is a human being that is being killed when they are aborted? Or are they not human? Are we talking about human beings or not

Because I didn’t say they weren’t human or alive, I said others don’t believe it. What they believe may not be the truth, but it has shaped the law to what it is today too.

Ah I see, so they are humans that are being aborted… Sad.

I am a police officer and I took an oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States and I would die doing so but I would not die for this, I would not stand up for this “right”. There may come a day when my Lord will question where I stood on this issue (among other issues), and I fear that, “It was the law of the land” will not be good enough for Him.

God bless

 

[davia]

I assure you, people are forced to have abortions – by boy friends, husbands, parents, school nurses and so on.

Yes, believe me I know better than most about that based on events in my extended family. But that is not the law’s fault, that is the husband/boyfriend whoever. Just because we have the right to bear arms doesn’t mean it’s the law’s fault when when a burgler gets a hold of your gun in your house and kills you. Just as it’s not the lack of law (abotion is illegal) that is responsible for killing a woman having an back alley abortion.

 

[mapleoak]

The science and medical community may be in agreement, but the law is not.

The law currently allows innocent people to be killed. That needs to be corrected.

I agree the innocent should be saved, but the law does not see the “fetus” as an innocent unfortunately.

But it needs to. It needs to protect them from being murdered since they cannot defend themselves.

The baby is not viable because it can not live outside the womb.

So your definition of ‘viable’ is not being dependent on someone else?

I think that from the age of viability and on (which is 22 weeks I believe),

Is a 22 week old person dependent on someone else?

we can get abortions stopped because if there is some 'medical reason" like they claim, the child could be born and given’t it’s chance.

Or is your definition being able to be born and not be dependent? That pretty much excludes everyone, doesn’t it?

Before that unfortunately it will not survive, and I think until that point, the law will not prohibit abortions.

What baby can survive on its own after its born?

In Roe Vs Wade they are not telling people what to do, they are giving others “options” and their “choice” but the law isn’t forcing anyone into abortions.

Roe v. Wade gives certain people the choice to murder other people against their will. The ones getting murdered don’t have a choice, but have it forced upon them.

I am not saying I hope people have abortions. I am just saying we can’t dictate what what they can and can’t do, just as they can’t dictate for us.

Its always about ‘us’ and not about ‘them’. Don’t dictate what we can do, but who cares if the unborn are killed against their will.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

least

at viability and that can’t be argued otherwise. A person can argue that a 10 week “fetus” can’t survive, but they can’t argue a 28 weeker couldn’t survive and that surviving baby would obviously have “life”.

So then like I said to the other poster, lets give the benefit of doubt to the baby. Lets give the benefit of doubt to life.

We can do that as Catholics, but athiests may not agree, and the law is going to side with “freedom” and choice. The way the law it set up, they have “freedom” to do what they want with the law and we have “freedom” to do what we want and believe in.

well, I am not talking about being human, I am talking about unquestionable proof that there is life, and that is with being born. We may believe it happens much sooner, but not everyone does If you did for example believe that, it’s not what the law believes which is like I said the whole center of this arguemnt IMO.

Since when are the voting masses correct in all matter of faith and morals in the eyes of God? Slavery was allowed by law. Slaves weren’t considered human. Women weren’t allow to vote, they were considered to dumb to vote as a human would, surrendering soldiers are not shot in war, they are granted quarter. Need more examples. There is a higher law above that of the laws passed by governments, it’s the law that governers the human race, given to us by God. God’s laws can’t be voted on. Can a government entity vote to reduce a murder conviction to a meaningless offense in the eyes of God the Creator?!

No never. Now apply that rational to the murder of babies.

 

[davia]

I think we are at an impass . We can nit pick at the definition of “survival”, but I am not talking however about being dependant on someone for food and shelter - adults even do that. I am talking about an ability to live at all which if a baby that is not at a certain development stage can not do.

In fact, no one knows better than I do . You say you are a police officer. I am a mother. my son was born almost 4 months premature. He was the size of a stick of butter. Any sooner he would have had 0 chance. I know better than anyone the importance of life and no one depends on another more than a premie on it’s parents. I am not talking however about being dependant on someone for food and shelter.

You can substitute the word murder. Lots of people do. Choice and freedom are not my words - they are the words of pro-choice individuals which is why I put those words in quotes.

The issue is not about being human. I never said anything about being human. This is about when life starts regardless of what species we are talking about, and what the law says about that, because we can wine all we want, the law is the law. We can stand up against abortion - believe it or not, I do, but how far are we willing to take it. That is why I say prayer and electing good officials are the steps to take. Beyond drastic options, we have no other options. Some people say they need to stand up for it and they do things like bomb clinics and kill doctors - that is not right either.

I do not disagree with you that life begins at conception. I dont’ disagree that it would be best for abortions to cease, but I am trying to look at it matter of factly and it doesn’t seem this will happen - again it’s not that I wouldn’t like it too (let’s get that clear )

God bless

 

[vern_humphrey]

Yes, believe me I know better than most about that based on events in my extended family. But that is not the law’s fault, that is the husband/boyfriend whoever. Just because we have the right to bear arms doesn’t mean it’s the law’s fault when when a burgler gets a hold of your gun in your house and kills you. Just as it’s not the lack of law (abotion is illegal) that is responsible for killing a woman having an back alley abortion.

Except that if a killer aborted a woman against her will and against the law, he’d be prosecuted. It is the legality of abortion that makes it easy to force girls.

 

[davia]

okay, well sometimes there’s no use in keep arguing on a subject. I think Rita was understanding what I was trying to say. I am not defending abortion. Just pointing out some facts about how things are in this world as I percieve them. I’ll let you guys get back to talking amongst yourselves about this - I think I’ll bow out from the thread now Thanks for listening

 

[kell0618]

Yes, believe me I know better than most about that based on events in my extended family. But that is not the law’s fault, that is the husband/boyfriend whoever. Just because we have the right to bear arms doesn’t mean it’s the law’s fault when when a burgler gets a hold of your gun in your house and kills you. Just as it’s not the lack of law (abotion is illegal) that is responsible for killing a woman having an back alley abortion.

‘Back alley’ abortions resulted in 39 deaths of mothers in the year prior to Roe v. Wade.

 It is also important to remember that women today still die. They die from      so-called "safe" and legal abortions. According to the CDC and the Alan      Guttmacher Institute (a "special affiliate" of Planned Parenthood) over 200      women have died from legal abortions since 1973. These numbers are also      cited in the American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology, vol. 171, no.5      (November 1994), pp. 1365-1352. Common sense would also suggest that it has      never been in the abortion industry's self interest to report all the deaths      from legal abortion.

If abortion, is made illegal, women will die.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

In fact, no one knows better than I do . You say you are a police officer. I am a mother. my son was born almost 4 months premature. He was the size of a stick of butter. Any sooner he would have had 0 chance. I know better than anyone the importance of life and no one depends on another more than a premie on it’s parents. I am not talking however about being dependant on someone for food and shelter.

I am very sorry to hear about your son but this only helps my case. Your son was only able to survive outside the womb because of the care you provided. You said that some people claim a child is considered to be a life, when it is able to survive outside the womb, but when exactly is that? Like you said yourself, there are even adults who cannot, so to say that life is considered at the moment when a child can live outside the womb is not going to work. I am not going to use your child as an example any more, you both will be in my prayers and I am truly sorry to hear about that.

The issue is not about being human. I never said anything about being human. This is about when life starts regardless of what species we are talking about, and what the law says about that, because we can wine all we want, the law is the law.

So why did we hang the Nazis at Nuremberg? Why was the defense, “because it was the law” not good enough to absolve them of their actions? In fact, why do we look at their actions with such disdain? I know why but if we had the point of view of, “its the law so we have to be ok with it” than their actions were nothing that we should hold judgment on. They did what was allowed by their law.

God bless

 

[davia]

I am very sorry to hear about your son but this only helps my case. Your son was only able to survive outside the womb because of the care you provided. You said that some people claim a child is considered to be a life, when it is able to survive outside the womb, but when exactly is that? Like you said yourself, there are even adults who cannot, so to say that life is considered at the moment when a child can live outside the womb is not going to work. I am not going to use your child as an example any more, you both will be in my prayers and I am truly sorry to hear about that.

So why did we hang the Nazis at Nuremberg? Why was the defense, “because it was the law” not good enough to absolve them of their actions? In fact, why do we look at their actions with such disdain? I know why but if we had the point of view of, “its the law so we have to be ok with it” than their actions were nothing that we should hold judgment on. They did what was allowed by their law.

God bless

Thank you so much for your thoughts of him. He is 2, I can’t believe it. I really thank my husband for supporting us financially and emotionally so that I have been able to stay home with him (not for much longer though unfortunately) and work hard with him. Like I said, my main job is mom, lol. We are having some very small issues that we’ll have to work on, but considering how it could have been, it is to 100% thanks to God and prayers that he is here and doing normally. We both were in pretty serious condition at first though In fact, he has a dr appt today and I can’t wait to see how they size him up

I do agree with you about the law. I don’t really mean to say that because it’s law it’s right. I don’t believe abortion is right. But, I guess I get this from my mom - it’s not what I want, it’s just how it is and I don’t mean to come across in a negative way or to sound argumentative, because I actually agree with what is being said.

Well, I am off and thanks

 

[hasikelee]

Do you thing there are really women who honestly believe that “blob of tissue spin?” My personal opinion (which may be quite wrong) is that the verdict was well-deserved because even my grade-schooler could sketch a baby if asked to represent the contents of a pregnant woman’s belly. He wouldn’t need a nurse to tell him what’s in there and neither should she!

In my counseling I have found plenty of women who were raised by family, taught in school or told by doctors to the point of believing entirely ridiculous things. It’s certainly not a hard thing to imagine.

For example, I know nurses who were taught in school that you’re not pregnant until the zygote implants successfully in the uterus. This was a marketing ploy created by a layman with zero medical experience. He wanted to avoid the scandal of COCs, so he decided to change the definition. It hasn’t been more than what? 15 years since he did that? And now an entire generation of nurses and doctors take his words as science.

I have heard the weirdest things, such as if you go to the bathroom after sexual intercourse, you won’t get pregnant, or the tissue isn’t alive until you have sex for a second time…I could go on and on.

Butttttt, the crux of the case had nothing to do with the woman’s knowledge and whether she understood biology or not. The crux of the case had to do with our courts making precedent on allowing medical professionals to lie about scientific facts when counseling someone for an invasive surgery.

I really don’t care if the lady had a Phd. Her doctor directly lied to her, leading her to grant permission for him to perform an invasive surgery that terminated a human, and then the courts said he was allowed to do mislead, misinform and hide scientific facts from his patients.

The ramifications of this case are quite depressing.

 

[deb1]

For example, I know nurses who were taught in school that you’re not pregnant until the zygote implants successfully in the uterus. This was a marketing ploy created by a layman with zero medical experience. He wanted to avoid the scandal of COCs, so he decided to change the definition. It hasn’t been more than what? 15 years since he did that? And now an entire generation of nurses and doctors take his words as science.

.

Wait. I was taught this in when I took some courses in nursing! That was almost twenty years ago. Oh my goodness. I never thought about this before.

When I got pregnant with my oldest son, 18 years ago, there was a lot of discussion about the first few months the baby not being a baby but merely a mass of tissue. It sounds crazy now doesn’t it?

 

[neslor617]

I pray for her as well; that is a sad, heavy burden to carry. I pray God has mercy on her, that she is reunited with her twins in heaven, and is surrounded by His love.

Just to add, I have met women who didn’t fully understand what they were doing when they had an abortion, including not really understanding that they took a life. They don’t get it until years later, and serious depression, guilt, etc… set in. We have a healing ministry for these women called Project Rachel. I work in this ministry, and have heard many stories from women who did not understand the consequences (guilt, grief, serious depression, low self esteem, etc…). I pray for all these women, because suicide is very common for women who have had an abortion. As Catholics, we should refer women who are hurting to this ministry, so that they can heal through God’s mercy, and know they can be forgiven and loved.

 

[hasikelee]

Wait. I was taught this in when I took some courses in nursing! That was almost twenty years ago. Oh my goodness. I never thought about this before.

When I got pregnant with my oldest son, 18 years ago, there was a lot of discussion about the first few months the baby not being a baby but merely a mass of tissue. It sounds crazy now doesn’t it?

Isn’t it just fascinating? It’s as if no amount of education or review of history and science can prevent the next generation from committing the same atrocity.

We all look back at many black marks in history with disgust and horror. “Who could do that?” “No one could believe that!” Yet we are at the dawn of our own darkness. I wonder what the history books will say about us. Not that it appears to matter to the next generation.

I am in a holocaust literature course and the entire class time I listen to gasps of horror and discussions about how “crazy” those people were and how obviously they knew better. I find myself wondering how they think we are any different from the last group.

 

[allhers]

St. Agustine said: “An unjust law is no law at all.”
A very good Priest I know said: “Not all laws are good laws.”
I think more people need to understand that it was the Supreme Court, a handful of less than 10 people who deceided this, we didn’t vote it into law.
Life begins at conception, then travels to the womb and implants.
Lord have mercy on all those women who didn’t know this.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

I remember that article…the lady found out later after she went to the hospital from abortion complications and the nurse said “baby.”

So, now doctors, by law, are not required to inform the woman that she is carrying a living human.

C’mon, you can’t actually believe that this woman didn’t know anything at all about pregnancy or the stages of life. From what I’ve read, it’s a cop out from the woman. Women do need to be informed about the depression abortion brings and all the other side effects, but this is stretching it.

 

[hasikelee]

C’mon, you can’t actually believe that this woman didn’t know anything at all about pregnancy or the stages of life. From what I’ve read, it’s a cop out from the woman. Women do need to be informed about the depression abortion brings and all the other side effects, but this is stretching it.

I would direct you to my response post. The importance of the case is not the speculation of the patient’s prior level of knowledge, but rather the precedent of the courts.

 

[Elric]

In the time that I have been a member of these boards, I have seen some pretty interesting posts/threads and many different points of view. I have not always agreed with them and have had several debates/arguments/disagreements with others over some topics, but I dont think that I have ever been shocked or ashamed by what I have read on these boards.

That is until now.

A young woman with a promising career has dies, taking her own life by hanging herself. She has left behind family and friends who now have to deal with the pain of her death (and the way that she died) and try to come to terms with not seeing her again.

Instead of talking about her grief or her families or suggesting ways that her suicide could have been prevented, what has happened?

People using the same lines for anti-abortion that have been used countless times on these forums, like abortion is murder (does that mean that this woman got what she deserved?) comparisons to the NAZI regieme and statistics of womens deaths when abortion was illegal.

A WOMAN HAS JUST DIED BY HANGING HERSELF

Can we focus on that and save the other stuff for another thread (Im not saying that it isnt worth debating, just not in this particular topic)?

Please show some compassion for this poor woman and her family. There are many facets to her story that should be discussed and some go beyond the issue of abortion.

You will have to forgive me for my bluntness, but I think that those who take thier lives to end their pain deserve more than a passing glance. I also have a “soft spot” for people with a mental illness especally when they are unable to cope.

 

[neslor617]

Well said. She needs compassion and prayers…most of us have no idea what she was going through, and we should be thankful we aren’t carrying that kind of heavy, sad burden. Obviously she was so depressed she felt there was no way out of it. The Church can help out instead of debating abortion. We should reach out and find these women (and men) who have been involved in an abortion—and let them know there is healing, forgiveness, and His love. This thread is a great example of why women don’t come forward in the Catholic Church, and feel they have no where to turn—because a lot of members condemn them for the sin instead of ministering to their needs. If women felt like the Church would help them, suicide rates would drop. THAT is what we should be talking about and focusing on. Jesus is about mercy, love, forgiveness, and healing. He would hate the sin and evil of abortion, but would love the person. We are to minister to ALL people, including women who have had an abortion…Jesus came and died on the cross for the sinners, which all of us are. I believe Jesus would want us to help these women in healing…and spread the word that He forgives ANYTHING if we come to Him. I think it is a waste of precious time to debate abortion. We should spend time helping and ministering to those who carry such a heavy burden. Jesus loves her, and I pray she is with Him now, surrounded by His love and mercy.

 

[deb1]

In the time that I have been a member of these boards, I have seen some pretty interesting posts/threads and many different points of view. I have not always agreed with them and have had several debates/arguments/disagreements with others over some topics, but I dont think that I have ever been shocked or ashamed by what I have read on these boards.

That is until now.

A young woman with a promising career has dies, taking her own life by hanging herself. She has left behind family and friends who now have to deal with the pain of her death (and the way that she died) and try to come to terms with not seeing her again.

Instead of talking about her grief or her families or suggesting ways that her suicide could have been prevented, what has happened?

People using the same lines for anti-abortion that have been used countless times on these forums, like abortion is murder (does that mean that this woman got what she deserved?) comparisons to the NAZI regieme and statistics of women’s deaths when abortion was illegal.

A WOMAN HAS JUST DIED BY HANGING HERSELF

Can we focus on that and save the other stuff for another thread (Im not saying that it isnt worth debating, just not in this particular topic)?

Please show some compassion for this poor woman and her family. There are many facets to her story that should be discussed and some go beyond the issue of abortion.

You will have to forgive me for my bluntness, but I think that those who take their lives to end their pain deserve more than a passing glance. I also have a “soft spot” for people with a mental illness especially when they are unable to cope.

There has been a lot of sympathy expressed for the young woman and it has been suggested that we pray for the repose of her soul. I almost feel like you have been reading a different thread then me. If someone suggested that this young lady deserved her fate then you should quote them so that we can all agree with you. Perhaps I missed a post in this long thread.(very possible)

It sounds like you are suggesting though that discussing the issues surrounding this woman’s suicide somehow makes us less understanding of the pain her family is suffering.

If a woman was brutally murdered while shopping, discussing the lack of such things as video surveillance in her local mall, does not take away from our sorrow at her death. So, I am confused how discussing the cause of this young woman’s death-depression resulting from aborting her twins-takes away from our sadness over her demise.