Artistic nudity: Work of art or occasion of sin?

[The_Otaku]

continued:

One of my daughters is still in the dating phase of life. If she were to even think about dating a guy like the OP or some of the other posters here, we’d have a nice talk and the guy would be told to hit the pike!

IF I was dating your daughter, and you went into mother hen or mama bear mode, I can almost be certain you wouldn’t find blame in me and I wouldn’t be hitting any pike. I say this not out of arrogance or cockiness, or an assumption that you’d like me, but because I’m a good catholic person, and your daughter would be treated with the utmost respect. I’m a conservative kind of guy, despite my 26 years and the age we live in these days with quick shaking up pre-marital sex and so forth. You’re assuming there’s a problem based on the preconceived notion that I’m likely to lust after your daughter or objectify her, or worse because I currently have hang ups with specific artwork having to do with nudity and the subject just so happens to be female nudity. In all honesty, I’d of shared this issue with your daughter in conversation, and for all we know, out of love or concern for me, she’d want to help me through it, and it might make our bond closer and she might be inspiration in my future art projects.

Of course, now I’M assuming. Because I’m assuming you’re daughter is in my age group. Like I said, I’m 26, and personally, I have a 5 year limit. I don’t feel comfortable dating someone more than 5 years older or 5 younger than myself, since my concern is compatibility issues that even half a decade’s difference can make.

I apologize if some are offended by my rather strong opinions regarding this issue, but the sins they are courting are deadly.

No need to apologize at all. Your feelings are strong and rightfully so, but some of your above statements are misguided or misplaced, I feel, given what I feel are the reasons or basis motivating them- namely whether someone who has concerns or questions about sexuality in art can be trusted with theirs and other people’s sexuality in real life circumstances and so forth.

I’m glad you went off on a tangent there a bit, because it allowed me to defend myself and people in situations like this all over the world. What they think of in art doesn’t necessarily reflect how they are or what they think of the same subject, but in reality and real life choices, thought processes, and such.

If this topic had been about nudity and sex (like lets say in immoral fashions, movies, etc), you might not recognize me, since my opinions and feelings on THAT would have been different.

I think some who don’t agree could get a copy of Mel Gibson’s film the Passion and view the Scourging at the pillar our dear Lord took and meditate on it reeeeeeal good then try to justify their sexual excesses and flippant excuses. Good luck!

I’ve seen the movie, actually, and I nearly cried and my eyes were with tears during the scourging scene. That was the worst part of the movie for me, actually, Some will say the crucifixion, but that was quite mild, I must say. Also, in regards to the rosary and the mysteries, my favorite IS the sorrowful mysteries. In a way, it should be everyone’s favorite mystery, but people don’t like the violence or this and that, it it’s too sensitive for them or it makes them feel guilty. Not me. It makes me realize how much God loves me.

So, yeah, I have seen it and meditated on it reeeeeeeal good, and I don’t justify excuses I’m not making, and most certainly for things that haven’t even happened. All I see is you assuming I’m in a bad way mentally and that things I haven’t even done need to be rebuked so far that you’d mention your motherhood and daughters as if people who have legitimate thoughts like these endanger your daughters.

The minute you lost track that this whole thread was a hypothetical question I wanted an opinion on (which a good catholic would want, and a bad catholic wouldn’t care to even ask in the first place), and you thought it was me confessing some perversion I have or something and how I need help avoiding it in regards to art, was the minute you stopped looking, reading, and replying (to me anyways) with any real respect or dignity and the minute I lost any hope of being taken seriously by you again.

I am scrupulous. How and why, I don’t know. Maybe you’re right, ironically, and it’s not scrupulosity, and maybe I’m just obsessive compulsive and I just don’t know and haven’t been diagnosed. Either way, I’m certain of one thing. I’m a good, moral person, and I don’t endanger you, yours, or the rest of society. To indirectly insinuate I could, by referencing I’d get the boot in dating your daughter means I’ve already been judged in your eyes. And if that’s how you feel, there’s nothing I can do to change that, and I won’t.

Don’t get me wrong, however. I’m glad you posted, and I still respect, agree with, and admire your morality on this issue.

 

[Fox]

Nudity is ok, porn is not. If it is a tastful nude that glorifies God’s creation, I see nothing wrong. Now if the nudity is to objectify or pervert people then its wrong. Now, if this is a probelm for you, say it gives you unclean lustful thoughts, I say stay away from this, whether its porn or tastful nudity. By the way there is nude art in the Vatican itself.

 

[MaryJohnZ]

I didn’t read everyone else’s posts so i hope I am not just repeating what others are saying. I am an artist and i teach art appreciation classes.

Nudity in art is not necessarily sinful. Michelangelo did nudes and I have seen some websites which say that because there are nudes on the Sistine Chapel’s ceiling the anti-Christ must be in the catholic Church! I think that is ridiculous. I think you can tell when nudity is done to purposefully cause sensual or sexual thoughts, and artwork that is designed to provoke those kinds of thoughts would be immoral obviously.

But God created the human body as something ‘good’, and it is our own sinulness that sometimes causes us to see it in a bad or sinful way.We have to guard our own thoughts and inclinations and judge the nature of what we have produced. I personally don’t
work in nudes but I don’t have a problem with going to a nude life drawing class either. But some people d have a problem and shouldn’t be in those types of classes because they can’t handle nudity in a pure and innocent way. In a perfect world we would be able to see past the sexual aspects to the person who is present,
and not fall into the tendency have impure thoughts.

In the end as long as the style and form do not show an obvious intention toward provoking impurity I don’t think it is wrong. If someone finds it wrong or has temptatons from the artwork then that is something they need to pray about and deal with.
Michelngelo used nudes and I think he was a holy person as an artist. I read he was found to be incorrupt for a while after he died, although I don’t know if that is true or not.

Well, that wasn’t that helpful…

pray about it.

MaryJohnZ

 

[elts1956]

What a shame Adam and Eve committed the first Original Sin which caused them to realize they were “naked”.

If that had not happened, we sinners would be able to fully appreciate the second greatest creation of God, the human body. We would be able to see as an artist, the fluid lines, the movement, the grace and the beauty God first intended us to appreciate.

We would be able to see the Sistine Chapel as a work of terrible majesty and glory, instead of seeing naked men and women we would stand in awe at the colors, the form and meaning of The Creation. We could appreciate Michelangelo, or Donatello’s David without worrying where our eyes were going to stray.

We could truly appreciate the drawings of Da Vinci who sought to understand the workings of the human body.

I don’t think for one instant that any of these three artists had evil intent when they created these masterpieces.

Instead of condemning and seeing evil, let’s honor the gifts the artist brings to the world, that of seeing what we cannot see, that of feeling what we cannot feel and understanding what we as non-artists cannot understand.

 

[Viki63]

Instead of condemning and seeing evil, let’s honor the gifts the artist brings to the world, .

I have to agree with this. I’m not an artist but my father was a well known pin-up artist in the '50s, and a Catholic, and I remember him worrying over this issue. I believe he decided he would paint women with respect, and do it to support his family, and leave it at that.

Anime is a bit different from scupture or painting, we have to remember. It’s aimed at teens, created for pure entertainment value, and mostly drawn by young folks, I believe. It has a bad reputation as some genres of it are porn. So if a Christian artist can produce anime that is entertaining, well-drawn, and morally acceptable, that would be great - infiltrating a camp of the enemy. Christians are having some success in doing that in Hollywood even now.

I would recommend keeping the clothes on your characters. After all, most people wear clothes most of the time except when bathing. Nobody really wants to have a sword or gun battle in their birthday suit.

If your work is clean and Christian, and becomes popular, that would be an excellent thing.

 

[elts1956]

I have to agree with this. I’m not an artist but my father was a well known pin-up artist in the '50s, and a Catholic, and I remember him worrying over this issue. I believe he decided he would paint women with respect, and do it to support his family, and leave it at that.

Anime is a bit different from scupture or painting, we have to remember. It’s aimed at teens, created for pure entertainment value, and mostly drawn by young folks, I believe. It has a bad reputation as some genres of it are porn. So if a Christian artist can produce anime that is entertaining, well-drawn, and morally acceptable, that would be great - infiltrating a camp of the enemy. Christians are having some success in doing that in Hollywood even now.

I would recommend keeping the clothes on your characters. After all, most people wear clothes most of the time except when bathing. Nobody really wants to have a sword or gun battle in their birthday suit.

If your work is clean and Christian, and becomes popular, that would be an excellent thing.

Hi. Didn’t know what anime is. In that case, it should surely not be done.

 

[steveandersen]

IIRC Anime is aimed a at wide range of age groups
In Japan comic books (or graphic novels or Manga (sp?)) are not treated with the intellectual stigma that exists in the West.

Some anime subjects are very mature indeed.

As for artwork being an occasion of sin, I think it has already been pointed out that many places of worship have artwork that includes the nude human form
I can’t see how it could be a problem

Naked is how God made us

Clothing ourselves happened after the Fall

I remember reading a science fiction story set far in the future where the Pope traditionally appears naked as a sign of innocence.

 

[The_Otaku]

Thank you everyone for your comments and responses.

 

[Viki63]

IIRC Anime is aimed a at wide range of age groups
In Japan comic books (or graphic novels or Manga (sp?)) are not treated with the intellectual stigma that exists in the West.

Some anime subjects are very mature indeed.

As for artwork being an occasion of sin, I think it has already been pointed out that many places of worship have artwork that includes the nude human form
I can’t see how it could be a problem

Naked is how God made us

Clothing ourselves happened after the Fall

In Japan manga is (are?) one thing, and in the US it’s something else. Adults read them in Japan, but not here. Basically they’re comic books aimed at teens, wouldn’t you say?
IMO teens have enough to worry about without exposing themselves to cute young naked girls, cartoon-style or not.

BUT if the OP can create comics of style and substance without resorting to nudity and other unnecessarily titillating stuff, why not go for it? Why should non-Christians have a monopoly on any particular artform/media?

 

[MaryJohnZ]

The problem I see in art like anime that tends to be “cute” is that unlike Michelangelo’s work which had a tendency to be majestic and monumental, the idea of nudity can become more like “candy” rather than a metaphysical, grand representation of nudity. In that case it could tend toward trivalizing the human person and be on a scale of style leaning toward sensuality over
spirituality. the thing is to have a balance or to have a style that manages to go beyond the balance point toward the spiritual…then you are successful in overcoming any overtly sexual message and bring the image higher as well as the mind of the viewer. but it is a tricky question to deal with. I have seen courses offered at colleges on this subject.

Those are just some thoughts.

MaryJohnZ

 

[The_Otaku]

In Japan manga is (are?) one thing, and in the US it’s something else. Adults read them in Japan, but not here. Basically they’re comic books aimed at teens, wouldn’t you say?
IMO teens have enough to worry about without exposing themselves to cute young naked girls, cartoon-style or not.

BUT if the OP can create comics of style and substance without resorting to nudity and other unnecessarily titillating stuff, why not go for it? Why should non-Christians have a monopoly on any particular artform/media?

Manga is made for the japanese and so is anime. This is also a cultural thing as you are right to suspect. By the time it gets to the States, we see the clear difference between cartoons and anime. It’s not right to put them in the same category, because anime is made for everyone, to answer your question. It’s not aimed at just kids or teens. There are as many genres for anime as there are movies. There’s action, adventure, comedy, romantic comedy, sci-fi, horror, drama, slice of life, etc. etc., and, of course…the one that leads so many astray…hentai (the anime equivalent to pornography) which is most certainly made for adults, but gets into the hands of teens and kids just as real porn does.

Anime can often be very intellectual, though, deep, and make you think. Some shows are even philosophical and teach a moral lesson and not something a kid or teen could grasp as they wouldn’t have the patience for it. They want things to blow up, explode, and boobies and guns. Just like in regular movies, younger people generally cannot appreciate a good thing if it doesn’t nab their attention, and anime is unique in that it does nab their attention. What it does or does not do after that is the problem.

The fact is, teens are going to be bombarded by sensuality wherever they go, but if someone like me can use the sexy anime girls to get their attention and then put it in the right direction then I’ve used the device and method to a good end. Of course, a single picture is just a single picture. If I was an animator or a director who made these shows, I could really help out. Alas, I’m just an amateur artist whose not looking to get into that field. This is currently just a hobby. I just draw what I like drawing, and if other people like it, that’s nice too. I’d like to think my art could be used to lead anime fans into a more wholesome direction, though.

Maybe someday I’ll make a manga and people will like it and God will bless it and it will sell well and get a following because it has morals in it and so forth.

 

[The_Otaku]

The problem I see in art like anime that tends to be “cute” is that unlike Michelangelo’s work which had a tendency to be majestic and monumental, the idea of nudity can become more like “candy” rather than a metaphysical, grand representation of nudity. In that case it could tend toward trivalizing the human person and be on a scale of style leaning toward sensuality over
spirituality. the thing is to have a balance or to have a style that manages to go beyond the balance point toward the spiritual…then you are successful in overcoming any overtly sexual message and bring the image higher as well as the mind of the viewer. but it is a tricky question to deal with. I have seen courses offered at colleges on this subject.

Those are just some thoughts.

MaryJohnZ

Yeah, the thing with anime style is it takes realistic anatomy, exaggerates it completely or partially, and it blends it with cutesy faces and innocent looking qualities. Even if the character him/herself is an adult, they look like children or teens. The main issue lies with the females. In Japan, there’s somewhat of a sexual repression. It’s a cultural thing. And anime is one of the ways the try to vent this. Another thing worthy of being noted, is that in Japan, to the best of my knowledge, a girl is considered of age at 14, whereas here we have our “sweet” 16 equivalent. Children and teens are pushed into adulthood in Japan and much is expected of them early.

One speculation for why Japan has such a high suicide rate is because of the pressure and depression the younger generations are going through. They’re getting into society and big time responsibility too soon too early and too young. Of course, this is just a hypothesis.

Anyways, getting back to the point, I think it all depends on the artist and their individual style. There is no one way to draw anime, just like there is no one way to draw anything else. Even a subtle difference in line width or something, can make a huge difference in the feel of a style. All the more so with things like anatomy and sensuality. There are things an artist can do to make their art seem more sensual without it actually being sensual. People just have a desire to see something physically pleasing, and anime often does that, because it combines the energy and freedom of youth, with the body and maturity of adulthood. It combines people’s desires to see physically attractive, young people in adult roles and responsibilities, which is why you see anime the way you do. In most cases, if the story isn’t about highschool kids, it’s usually about highschool-looking kids in jobs and professions that only an adult would be in, and they look like they belong there because they have the body of an adult, but they may be in their early 20s.

Personally, I don’t care for this mixture. I think it’s confusing and contradicting. I prefer to draw characters looking like their actual age and giving them proportions that match their age’s anatomy. I prefer semi-realism in my art and include it when it’s appropriate. I don’t care for the kiddy looking faces with the hot bodies, but sometimes that cannot be avoided, especially if you’re drawing fanart for a series you watch, which is often the case with me. You need to draw it looking somewhat like the original character so people will know it’s him or her.

I think the problem with anime is the exaggeration of the anatomy mostly. It can be drawn in such a sensual, yet innocent way that it gives itself to lust without actually being designed to. More artists probably need to be careful with this and find a style of drawing the body, especially the adult female body, that expresses realism more over exaggeration to curb the sexuality. Even if this wasn’t a problem, the way the character acts is. If the character is a flirty type who flaunts her body, then you have a problem for another reason. While this is realistic of some attractive women wanting to be noticed, the fact it’s a cartoon and younger people are watching it may lead them to objectify women at an early age. The adult may handle it with good humor and responsibility, but a teen boy with his hormones raging might not be able to cope so well.

 

[Snowy]

Only those who are like children will enter the Kingdom of God. Children view breasts as a pantry, not as a temptation to sin.

 

[The_Otaku]

Only those who are like children will enter the Kingdom of God. Children view breasts as a pantry, not as a temptation to sin.

I think that applies to how we love God more than anything. He wants our love to be simple and for us to be trusting and loving like children. He doesn’t expect a man to have no desire for the flesh, as this is in his sin nature, but to turn to Him with child-like trust realizing that, like a child, he’s helpless without his Father in Heaven. Being adults, we know being child-like doesn’t cut it, since we’re in a world that would swallow us alive if we let it, and God understands the way we operate and why and under what conditions. It’s our business, desire, and need to be right with Him, and if we pursue that with a child-like confidence in a loving parent, we can’t possibly go wrong in the end.

 

[jheii]

Not an artist but an art lover. Just had to throw in my :twocents: .

As the poster above noted, all nudity is not pornographic. In fact, if you’ve ever caught a glimpse of what passes for music videos these days all you’ll see is porn, and the women are fully clothed!

All of God’s creation is beautiful, including the human body. If we can admire the beauty of a garden full of flowers or a magnificent landscape then we should be able to admire the divine hand in the beauty and wonder of the human body without there being occasion for sin. We should even be able to admire the skill and talent of an artist in rendering a nude.

That being said, being fixated on a woman’s breasts (or any other part of her anatomy) as the OP seemd to (never mind how well they were drawn) be would IMHO go beyond mere admiration for art.

Quick preface: I have NOT read all of the replies to this post, so I am not intending to join in whatever conversation has resulted as such.

I just wanted to say that I agree with this quote wholeheartedly. I would not be ashamed, in fact I would be proud to show our Lord or our Lady a portrait of a human being in the state that God the Father made him or her (nude), if that portrait did not provoke sexual desire. I am not an art historian, but none of the “classical” nude paintings that I’ve seen have aroused any sexual desire in me whatsoever, and I doubt that they were intended to. If the purpose behind a work of art is to show the beauty of God’s creation (and our naked, not our clothed, bodies are God’s creation), then I say go for it. There is nothing wrong with the nude body, there is only a problem with lust. While it may be hard for us to see an actual nude body without experiencing the sin of lust, the beauty of art is that the artist can re-create a nude body in such a way as not to inspire that same lustfulness within us. As I said before, I’m sure that Jesus and Mary would both be proud of an artist for doing such an honor to God’s creation while at the same time seperating the nude human body from the lustfulness so often associated with it.
God Bless,
John

 

[The_Otaku]

Quick preface: I have NOT read all of the replies to this post, so I am not intending to join in whatever conversation has resulted as such.

I just wanted to say that I agree with this quote wholeheartedly. I would not be ashamed, in fact I would be proud to show our Lord or our Lady a portrait of a human being in the state that God the Father made him or her (nude), if that portrait did not provoke sexual desire. I am not an art historian, but none of the “classical” nude paintings that I’ve seen have aroused any sexual desire in me whatsoever, and I doubt that they were intended to. If the purpose behind a work of art is to show the beauty of God’s creation (and our naked, not our clothed, bodies are God’s creation), then I say go for it. There is nothing wrong with the nude body, there is only a problem with lust. While it may be hard for us to see an actual nude body without experiencing the sin of lust, the beauty of art is that the artist can re-create a nude body in such a way as not to inspire that same lustfulness within us. As I said before, I’m sure that Jesus and Mary would both be proud of an artist for doing such an honor to God’s creation while at the same time seperating the nude human body from the lustfulness so often associated with it.
God Bless,
John

Excellent post.

 

[Snowy]

Thank you, The Otaku. I’m sure that you can look at a sheep like a child does and still not let people take advantage of you. If you painted a beautiful sheep, would you destroy the painting because many shepherds would find it an ocassion to sin?

 

[jheii]

Excellent post.

Thank you, and God bless.

 

[The_Otaku]

Thank you, The Otaku. I’m sure that you can look at a sheep like a child does and still not let people take advantage of you. If you painted a beautiful sheep, would you destroy the painting because many shepherds would find it an ocassion to sin?

No, I would not.

 

[MaryJohnZ]

I think the problem with anime is the exaggeration of the anatomy mostly. It can be drawn in such a sensual, yet innocent way that it gives itself to lust without actually being designed to. More artists probably need to be careful with this and find a style of drawing the body, especially the adult female body, that expresses realism more over exaggeration to curb the sexuality. Even if this wasn’t a problem, the way the character acts is. If the character is a flirty type who flaunts her body, then you have a problem for another reason. While this is realistic of some attractive women wanting to be noticed, the fact it’s a cartoon and younger people are watching it may lead them to objectify women at an early age. The adult may handle it with good humor and responsibility, but a teen boy with his hormones raging might not be able to cope so well.

---

I agree and i think you are stating the problem well. The style of anime doesn’t lend itself to portraying women in the nude without it being sexual and objectifying them in a wrong way.

What other artists have been able to show nudity and have it still be in good taste or have a sense of not being about “nudity” in an overtly sexual way or perverse way.

I have a Marc Chagall print that shows an abstract nude woman.
he used a beautiful orange color and he draws her diagonally with her head turned upwards. The body is ther…a sense of nudity is there, and even a sense of sensuality and yet the image surpasses that by virtue of the style, handling of colors, the abstract pose of the head, and the sense that this woman is part dream not real…all leading to a beautiful poetic statment that even a teen boy would look at i think and not have wrong thoughts.
I think you have to judge the image and style and avoid anything that would be taken the wrong way by others. aaaaAnime, from my experience of it, is a rather commercial style and so i don’t think it can attain the kind of poetry that Chagall attains or the majesty that Michelangelo attains…

I remember going into an art museum a few years ago and they had a video exhibit with two side by side images. One was a topless woman who represented The Blessed Mother at the foot of the cross. the other was a man, also topless. They were only shown from the waist up. The two acted out their grief and pain and at one moment the side by side images merge together at the shoulder creating a sense of spiritual oneness. It was hard for me to watch the video at first and I don’t think I would ever say it was my favorite or most inspiring experience about the connection between Jesus and Mary. I also wondered about people bringing younger children into the museum and then finding themselves confronted with the topless video of a woman…
the woman was older and so the intent was not to show a seductive image, yet it was unsettling and felt like too much was being seen and that the same message could have been told without the toplessness.

So, is it necessary or important to show bare chested women in anime?

The Chagall I love…I even see it as an image of the Assumption in a way…

MaryJohnZ