Artistic nudity: Work of art or occasion of sin?

[Antrim]

I just took a little time to go back and check the late Holy Father’s Theology Of The Body.

What to do is this. Go to Philosophy on this Thread and find Theology of The Body.

Little Deb has posted two replys. The second one has the late Holy Father’s weekly talks.

Read from 57-- 65 or more if you want.

I think that will help you understand this whole subject.

Antrim

 

[Joejohn39]

See, this is exactly the kind of thing that worries me regarding the attitude towards sex and the human body in the Catholic Church. The human body is just about the most beautiful physical thing in God’s creation; it is afterall created in His image. It deserves to be celebrated, not feared. And, yes, there is an erotic/sensual dimension to it; what is wrong with that? How does this cheapen it in any way? I can’t accept this level of anxiety over some of the most glorious of God’s miracles. I have often thought the devil is it; one would expect that he’d concentrate on twisting our minds towards God’s gifts, and spread fear and confusion regarding them. He’d do whatever he could poison our relationship with God as much as possible. What better way then to plague us with fear and distaste for our God-given bodies?

 

[moon1234]

See, this is exactly the kind of thing that worries me regarding the attitude towards sex and the human body in the Catholic Church. The human body is just about the most beautiful physical thing in God’s creation; it is afterall created in His image. It deserves to be celebrated, not feared. And, yes, there is an erotic/sensual dimension to it; what is wrong with that? How does this cheapen it in any way? I can’t accept this level of anxiety over some of the most glorious of God’s miracles. I have often thought the devil is it; one would expect that he’d concentrate on twisting our minds towards God’s gifts, and spread fear and confusion regarding them. He’d do whatever he could poison our relationship with God as much as possible. What better way then to plague us with fear and distaste for our God-given bodies?

There is a very fine line between admiring and lust. Most people cannot help themselves to be drawn towards lustful thoughts.

I think setting and situation are very important. Can you imagine any job that REQUIRES you to look at and interact with the nude human form on a daily basis? Think about it for a second. Many doctors and medical students do this every day. OB/GYNs MUST view and manipulate the female body on a daily basis. Many OB/GYNs are male. A doctor has a two fold temptation. He must avoid lustful thoughts towards his patients. He must also avoid objectifying his patients as mere subjects to be treated.

Would be be offended at a medical student who studies the nude human form? He must know the human body and how it works in order to treat it’s ailments. Would we be offended at high school students studying the human body in biology class? What about drawings of humans having sexual intercourse? For a doctor who treats sexual disfunction this may be required learning. Would you consider this sinful?

There are many proper contexts for viewing the nude human form. It is what how we use those images and how the images form our thoughts that we must be careful of. A nude medical image can be used for lust or teaching. It is up to us to be mindful in how we use those images.

Ask yourself what purpose your anime drawings are being used for? If it is for personal pleasure then I would avoid this temptation. If you are approached by the AMA and asked to use animation to depict how the mammary glads of a female human can be identified by digital examination for a training video for medical students then your reasoning for the drawing will be for licit vs illict motivations.

 

[The_Otaku]

Ask yourself what purpose your anime drawings are being used for? If it is for personal pleasure then I would avoid this temptation. If you are approached by the AMA and asked to use animation to depict how the mammary glads of a female human can be identified by digital examination for a training video for medical students then your reasoning for the drawing will be for licit vs illict motivations.

I think you’re quoting the wrong person or mistaking who you quoted as the OP, which he/she is not. I am the OP who draws anime. The person you are quoting is a different person.

I just thought I’d chime in to clear up this apparent confusion on your part, if there is any. Mistake or not, it’s good advice.

 

[The_Otaku]

I’m happy to see this thread is getting hits without me having to bump it. There are even a couple people who feel very strongly about this subject, and I’m pleased to see that. I’m glad to see there are people who are not indifferent here.

Here’s another thought I had about what is or is not proper or could possibly be a mixture of both- what about drawing angels in the nude? Some of the best historical artists drew angelic figures in the nude (especially those cute little baby cherubs with their wee little members), as well as modern day artists, but if one wanted to, they could consider this sacrilegious or blasphemous, as it portrays holy icons or figures as less than holy in being nude and exposed rather than rapped in saintly robes.

Again, this becomes an issue of intent. We can say the early day artists who drew like this didn’t intend to sexually arouse anyone and many of them limited the angelic nudity to that of the little cherubs. But, would a double-standard then be created for any common day artist who drew an adult angel (not a cherub baby) nude but with innocence and purity in mind? By what viewpoint or bias would such an argument be fueled for or against it? Is it because they’re adult in proportions and appearance that this becomes an issue? What about if they’re drawn androgynous? Many people believe angels have no gender or genitals and are mistaken for females or males because they’re both strong, but very beautiful.

Oddly enough, some people might be offended if they DIDN’T have a gender, and would accuse the artist of being a sexist, or if they didn’t draw both male and female angels or only one but not the other, they’re sexist for that.

The counterargument is gender with angels is irrelevant and distracts our attention on them and into something else. But in the art world, is it wrong to use your imagination and pretend that there are female angels and create drawings to bring to life these daydreams and so forth? If one considers gender is irrelevant with angels, assuming they had both genders in heaven, and both genders for demons for that matter, then why would (in the case of the holy angels) they care about clothing? I’ve heard it stated that angels have no carnal knowledge or understanding of human sexuality or something along those lines (in other words, they are incapable of dirty thoughts), or so I heard, and so they would have no sensuality or interest in being sexual and that they’re traditionally depicted as wearing clothes for our sake and shame rather than any they would incur. They didn’t fall, we and the fallen angels did, so they’re still pure and innocent.

If an artist were to believe this as true, and they drew an attractive female angel nude, with a cute, child-like look on her face, so as to attempt to portray her obliviousness to her own nudity, sexuality, or physical attractiveness, as if to have the innocence of a child doing something cute while nude, then is that acceptable? If so, under what circumstances? If not, why?

Obviously, drawing demons or fallen angels looking lustfully and erotic would be on the mark with what a fallen one would want to tempt you with, but what about holy angels? And, since I brought them up, what about the demons? Are drawing demons wrong and morally sinful because because you could or might be glorifying evil? Wouldn’t that have to do more with how ugly they looked? Often times, the only artistic difference between the fallen ones and the holy ones (in modern art anyways) are that the fallen ones have bat-like wings, or in anime and other art forms, they have black wings instead of white, but are otherwise the same in appearance, until they are forced to display their new, true form (which is that of some ugly creature). Heck, I’ll even go a step further. What if you drew Lucifier as an angel, before he fell, and another drawing/painting of him as a demon so you can compare and contrast the two? Would this be mortally sinful considering it encourages the viewer to learn more about Satan and there’s the possibility it might take then down the wrong path and into the occult, etc?

If these thoughts make you uncomfortable I apologize in advance. I assure you my mind is not in the gutter, and maybe asking questions like this will get some more mileage out of this thread.

 

[GailMac]

I hesitate to comment again as the OP, the Otaku has been offended by my comments. Yes, Moon, you are correct in noting that there are academics and professionals who deal with nudity on a daily basis yet remain for the most part uneffected. I would attribute this to the professional ethic they make a personal commitment to maintain. Otherwise, it would become disasterous for them on a moral plane. However, I don’t think that point applies to Otaku who is using his or her artistic skills to draw female nudes because he enjoys doing so. From where is this enjoyment derived? Only he knows and God, of course. I too am an artist. I am very peaceful when I am in my art, no matter what the object, though some media and expressions are more evocative for me. I would challenge Otaku to move beyond his fascination with the female form and work in a manner worthy of the name Christian. Can he do so? Or will he do so? That is entirely up to him. And perhaps he may not even see the need for this at this point in his artistic career, if that indeed is his choice of careers. Has he ever tried drawing say, the Blessed Virgin? How about the women of the Church? If he has already grasped the female form and can handle it with confidence, why not use his skills in a more dignified way? That is my point.

It is a personal choice to glorify God with one’s work. All persons, whether teacher, artist, engineer, laundress, or any other profession, are called upon to glorify God in their works. This is part of the call of Christ to every Christian. I think artists in particular have a unique opportunity in this call for every artist having an awareness of the reach of art in our lives historically longs to make an impact upon the society he lives in. Whether that is for good or ill is the choice of the artist. It requires just as much a personal commitment to a professional ethic as the doctor or nurse. Does this make my point clearer? I hope so.

Peace,

Gail

 

[The_Otaku]

I hesitate to comment again as the OP, the Otaku has been offended by my comments.

No need to hesitate, as I haven’t been offended by anything you said. I don’t know how you came to this conclusion. Honestly. Was there something I said that made it seem you made me angry? I want to know, since I feel this is a misunderstanding on your part, or that maybe you feel I don’t agree with or appreciate what you’re saying.

Yes, Moon, you are correct in noting that there are academics and professionals who deal with nudity on a daily basis yet remain for the most part uneffected. I would attribute this to the professional ethic they make a personal commitment to maintain. Otherwise, it would become disasterous for them on a moral plane. However, I don’t think that point applies to Otaku who is using his or her artistic skills to draw female nudes because he enjoys doing so. From where is this enjoyment derived? Only he knows and God, of course. I too am an artist. I am very peaceful when I am in my art, no matter what the object, though some media and expressions are more evocative for me. I would challenge Otaku to move beyond his fascination with the female form and work in a manner worthy of the name Christian. Can he do so? Or will he do so? That is entirely up to him. And perhaps he may not even see the need for this at this point in his artistic career, if that indeed is his choice of careers. Has he ever tried drawing say, the Blessed Virgin? How about the women of the Church? If he has already grasped the female form and can handle it with confidence, why not use his skills in a more dignified way? That is my point.

It is a personal choice to glorify God with one’s work. All persons, whether teacher, artist, engineer, laundress, or any other profession, are called upon to glorify God in their works. This is part of the call of Christ to every Christian. I think artists in particular have a unique opportunity in this call for every artist having an awareness of the reach of art in our lives historically longs to make an impact upon the society he lives in. Whether that is for good or ill is the choice of the artist. It requires just as much a personal commitment to a professional ethic as the doctor or nurse. Does this make my point clearer? I hope so.

Peace,

Gail

I feel as though you think my mind is already set and made up on doing this in a way that is somehow against what you have advised. This isn’t the case. I also feel as though you think I’ve already drawn pictures like these or that this is all I’m interested in. I think the problem here may be that I’m thinking in the future tense and you’re thinking in the present tense. When I say the things I say or have questions they’re being applied to the future with things that are not tangible and haven’t happened yet, not the present. I haven’t drawn any talked about nudes, and despite the thread, don’t have a fascination with nudity or with wanting to make my art more adult.

I feel I’m being painted, pardon the pun, as a lecher or pervert, and I guess I should have expected that posting this on a catholic website. My bad. I just thought this would be the best place to post such a question. I know if I posted such questions anywhere else, I’d get secular responses, which isn’t what I wanted.

 

[GailMac]

Dear Otaku, you state:" I feel I’m being painted, pardon the pun, as a lecher or pervert, and I guess I should have expected that posting this on a catholic website. My bad. I just thought this would be the best place to post such a question. I know if I posted such questions anywhere else, I’d get secular responses, which isn’t what I wanted. (emphasis mine)"

You asked for a critique and are unhappy with the results? Have you never had one in an art class? If the answer is yes, then apply the same objectivity to your feelings about how others have responded to your words here. That simple.

You asked for honest answers. That is what you got. Simply a few persons opinions about your question. Can you stand up to criticism? This is almost imperitive in an artist. Everyone will have an opinion of everything you do, some good, some not so good and some, well, we won’t even go there. This is wonderfully edifying and keeps a person humble! Wonderful stuff!

Like you have already observed, you’d get a different reaction had you asked the same question in a more secular format. Why is this important to you? Do you need strokes that badly? Get them from God man. And get back to work. (But NOT on Sunday!)

Peace,

Gail

 

[The_Otaku]

Dear Otaku, you state:" I feel I’m being painted, pardon the pun, as a lecher or pervert, and I guess I should have expected that posting this on a catholic website. My bad. I just thought this would be the best place to post such a question. I know if I posted such questions anywhere else, I’d get secular responses, which isn’t what I wanted. (emphasis mine)"

You asked for a critique and are unhappy with the results? Have you never had one in an art class? If the answer is yes, then apply the same objectivity to your feelings about how others have responded to your words here. That simple.

You asked for honest answers. That is what you got. Simply a few persons opinions about your question. Can you stand up to criticism? This is almost imperitive in an artist. Everyone will have an opinion of everything you do, some good, some not so good and some, well, we won’t even go there. This is wonderfully edifying and keeps a person humble! Wonderful stuff!

Like you have already observed, you’d get a different reaction had you asked the same question in a more secular format. Why is this important to you? Do you need strokes that badly? Get them from God man. And get back to work. (But NOT on Sunday!)

Peace,

Gail

This isn’t the question I asked you, though, in my last post. I asked you why you felt I was angry with you, and now you’re talking about critiquing. I feel like it’s a change of subject on your part. Correct me if I’m wrong.

To reply to this post, however, and your quoting of it, for me this wasn’t about critiquing, it was about asking moral questions about art and getting catholic answers to those questions. If I wasn’t open to accepting them I wouldn’t be here. If you want to define that in itself as critiquing, I guess that’s ok if you want to be technical or anal about it, but it’s confusing me, since when I think of critiquing, I think of displaying my artwork and people analyzing it. This is something different because it isn’t tangible and I’m asking about things in theory, principle, or hypotheticals, not actual artistic principles or fundamentals, which we haven’t even really talked about. We’ve all been talking about the morality of drawings.

I can tell you take this very personally, more so than anyone else that’s posted here. And maybe it’s because you realize you’re the only one whose coming from the direction that you’re coming from that you feel I haven’t appreciated what you’ve had to say, but that’s not true and I haven’t demonstrated otherwise, which is why I would be surprised that you or anyone would feel uncomfortable (uncomfortable with me, not the subject matter itself, which if people cannot handle they probably shouldn’t get into), since I haven’t said anything against what you (I hadn’t even replied to you yet at that point) or anyone said. I’ve been listening to everyone’s (name removed by moderator)ut and listening to everyone with equal opportunity.

EDIT: As for why this is important to me, I thought that was painfully obvious- I care about my immortal soul. Like any person who posts in Moral Theology, I ask questions that are on my mind that I need or want answers to. This doesn’t mean I don’t go to God, it just means there’s also a security and sense of community in putting personal questions on these boards. These questions, like everyone else’s, tend to be about the soul and what endangers it in any given situation or whether or not it does. People don’t just post here for advice, but for casual spiritual council, which is why this particular forum is so popular and gets alot of immorality questions, like masturbation and so forth, because people feel they can be free to ask these questions they cannot ask somewhere else without being judged or they use the answers they got here to help build on the answers they get from their priest or spiritual advisor.

If a person were to be judged or brow-beaten here, I feel that would be a huge diservice, not to mention not very Christian like.

 

[The_Barbarian]

If you think that artistic nudity is porn, I can only suggest you steer clear of the Vatican.
mv.vatican.va/3_EN/pages/x-Select/10select/10select_02.html

 

[GailMac]

Dear Otaku - I’m probably wasting my words but here goes anyway…

You state:" If a person were to be judged or brow-beaten here, I feel that would be a huge diservice, not to mention not very Christian like." Yet this is said AFTER this comment about what I said…“If you want to define that in itself as critiquing, I guess that’s ok if you want to be technical or anal about it,” Now I haven’t been called anal in a long time, leastways not to my face. I guess I should take it as a compliment or something? Well, Otaku, thanks for sharing and critiquing my comments. You’re more than generous.

Peace,

Gail

 

[The_Otaku]

If you think that artistic nudity is porn, I can only suggest you steer clear of the Vatican.
mv.vatican.va/3_EN/pages/x-Select/10select/10select_02.html

You know, it’s the fact paintings like that exist in the way they exist that make this an interesting issue to talk about.

We can look at this picture and assume the Vatican finds no fault in it. If we can believe that, it isn’t unreasonable to use portraits like this as a guide to how much nudity is too much or whether it’s tasteful. Because it deals with religious figures, and even dares to show God Himself, it sends a strong message, and it gives us a threshold to work with.

 

[The_Otaku]

Dear Otaku - I’m probably wasting my words but here goes anyway…

You state:" If a person were to be judged or brow-beaten here, I feel that would be a huge diservice, not to mention not very Christian like." Yet this is said AFTER this comment about what I said…“If you want to define that in itself as critiquing, I guess that’s ok if you want to be technical or anal about it,” Now I haven’t been called anal in a long time, leastways not to my face. I guess I should take it as a compliment or something? Well, Otaku, thanks for sharing and critiquing my comments. You’re more than generous.

Peace,

Gail

The problem seems to be that you’re assuming I was talking about you when I said brow-beating. The truth is, it wasn’t directed at any single person here or at any time, just that it happens in this forum and I’ve seen it and I was stating how it’s sad when that happens. The edit portion was about how people are vulnerable when they post here and people need to consider it. As for how it coincided with the rest of the post, it’s just that, a coincidence.

Trust me, I can be a confrontational person if I want to be, and it’s not in my nature to be passive aggressive. That is to say that if I wanted to insult you I’d just do it right to your face as you may think I have. I cannot though, as I don’t have an issue with you and I’m not going to pretend I do. That becomes a pride issue, and there’s really nothing for me to defend here. I’m only asking questions about things I’ve thought about doing, not things I actually have or thought about so much they’re about to happen.

This explains how I feel, but if it leaves you feeling the same way, then I apologize. I don’t know what to say to make it better. I’m a nice person, so I don’t like when things are or become not so nice. I don’t like inconveniencing other people either, which is why it wouldn’t have bothered me if hardly anyone responded to this thread and it just sunk and died on it’s on. But people have been bumping it, and showing an interest. So, it makes me hopeful I’ll get to read alot of different opinions.

It’s part of why I’m creating these hypothetical questions along the way also, like with the angel one I asked earlier. It’s not that I’m definitely wanting to draw something like that, but it gives us something to talk about specifically in addition to just the general opinion of the subject matter.

People can feel free to add their own hypotheticals for people to answer. ‘Is this ok? What about this?’, etc. Perhaps we can cover more ground and provide specific answers for people other than myself. It would also allow people such as yourself to respond to those specifics if you wished to.

Since we cannot show art, we have to talk about it. And if we’re going to talk about it, we might as well be specific, I was thinking.

 

[preV2tradcath]

If you think that artistic nudity is porn, I can only suggest you steer clear of the Vatican.
mv.vatican.va/3_EN/pages/x-Select/10select/10select_02.html

Thank you for an important point to consider. There is much food for thought.

 

[Joejohn39]

There is a very fine line between admiring and lust. Most people cannot help themselves to be drawn towards lustful thoughts.

I think setting and situation are very important. Can you imagine any job that REQUIRES you to look at and interact with the nude human form on a daily basis? Think about it for a second. Many doctors and medical students do this every day. OB/GYNs MUST view and manipulate the female body on a daily basis. Many OB/GYNs are male. A doctor has a two fold temptation. He must avoid lustful thoughts towards his patients. He must also avoid objectifying his patients as mere subjects to be treated.

Would be be offended at a medical student who studies the nude human form? He must know the human body and how it works in order to treat it’s ailments. Would we be offended at high school students studying the human body in biology class? What about drawings of humans having sexual intercourse? For a doctor who treats sexual disfunction this may be required learning. Would you consider this sinful?

There are many proper contexts for viewing the nude human form. It is what how we use those images and how the images form our thoughts that we must be careful of. A nude medical image can be used for lust or teaching. It is up to us to be mindful in how we use those images.

Ask yourself what purpose your anime drawings are being used for? If it is for personal pleasure then I would avoid this temptation. If you are approached by the AMA and asked to use animation to depict how the mammary glads of a female human can be identified by digital examination for a training video for medical students then your reasoning for the drawing will be for licit vs illict motivations.

I’m not quite sure how much of this is meant for me, but I absolutely would not consider any of those examples sinful. It’s my contention that we have become overly worried and fearful about the erotic side of human life. It exists, and it’s a major part of life, yet we seem to be constantly unable to comfortably intergrate into the rest of human life.

 

[Antrim]

Why should it worry you regarding the attitude toward Sex & the Catholic Church?

Before The late Holy Father got to the part about Nudity in Art. He spoke at length about The Sermon On The Mount which has to do with Lust And Adultry.

Antrim

 

[GailMac]

Dear JoeJohn, you state:“I’m not quite sure how much of this is meant for me, but I absolutely would not consider any of those examples sinful. It’s my contention that we have become overly worried and fearful about the erotic side of human life. It exists, and it’s a major part of life, yet we seem to be constantly unable to comfortably intergrate into the rest of human life.”

I’m a little older and certainly a world weary traveler. In my Bible I am instructed to make no provisions for the flesh. It is good that you notice the world is full of temptations for folks to sin in the flesh. One hour just flipping through the channels on the television is enough to make that point. But why add to it? And why recommend sitting in the cess pool of it to another fellow traveler in this valley of tears? How long do you think you could sit in a cess pool and not pick up the stench of it? Why court disaster? Or is proving your “worth” as a Christian to yourself so important to your ego that you need to test the waters constantly by perusing through things that may make you fall? In the Pater Noster, we ask God not to lead us into temptations and to deliver us from evil. Why ask for this if you are going to undermine His efforts by placing yourself in the near occassions of sin via art? And then justify it by saying the world is full of it? I don’t have answers for those who push the limits to see how close they can get before too far is too far. I also don’t have the patience for it either.

Peace,

Gail

 

[Joejohn39]

I’m a little older and certainly a world weary traveler. In my Bible I am instructed to make no provisions for the flesh. It is good that you notice the world is full of temptations for folks to sin in the flesh. One hour just flipping through the channels on the television is enough to make that point. But why add to it? And why recommend sitting in the cess pool of it to another fellow traveler in this valley of tears? How long do you think you could sit in a cess pool and not pick up the stench of it? Why court disaster? Or is proving your “worth” as a Christian to yourself so important to your ego that you need to test the waters constantly by perusing through things that may make you fall? In the Pater Noster, we ask God not to lead us into temptations and to deliver us from evil. Why ask for this if you are going to undermine His efforts by placing yourself in the near occassions of sin via art? And then justify it by saying the world is full of it? I don’t have answers for those who push the limits to see how close they can get before too far is too far. I also don’t have the patience for it either

Well, this is sort of like what I’ve been talking about in my thread “All this confusion amongst Catholics about SEX!,” so I’m not going to repeat all those points here or debate at length about it. Let me just say that I spent the bulk of my teenaged years and into my early twenties worrying and fretting over just these sorts of things, and it never worked. It never made me any more holy or any more chaste; it just made me more stressed. If anything, it hindered my relationship with God. Finally, I could not longer see why I was wasting all this time worrying about the human body, created in God’s own image, and sex, a gift from Him to us. I mean, we don’t have this kind of attitude towards food or any other earthly pleasure. These things should be celebrated, not scorned. What better way for the devil to hinder our relationship with God than to make us than to make as feel guilty and ashamed over the beauty and pleasure of the human body, the physical reflection of our souls and the pinnacle of His physical earthly creation. I don’t advocate hedonism, of course, but I’m much less riven about this than I used to be and, I think, a lot of Catholics are.

 

[GailMac]

Dear Joejohn - Thanks for sharing your enlightened wisdom. I’m glad you got over your teenaged angst over sex. I’m happy for you that you feel you’ve finally grown out of the guilt-trips you think all that talk against sex was about. But I still think art is not to be used as an excuse for seductions for those who fall for the tempations of the flesh. As has already been said in this thread, art can elivate the mind to things of God to which I add this is the true calling of every Christian artist. Why these statements seem such a threat to some here is beyond me. Perhaps some expect soft-pedaling of sexual morality just because the results of wasted talents can be viewed as “art” and thereby provide an excuse for making provision for the flesh.

I guess I could mention I am a mother a few times over and have seen nothing finer than the tiny tukis of my darling daughter in her tubby splasing and playing with her rubber ducky! I’m quite familiar with the human form! All those lovely cherubs in art remind me of those precious years as a young mother.

But that wasn’t the OP’s question was it? He, a young man, was wondering how far was too far in viewing and working on busts of female nudes or just plain old viewing them on the INTERNET? Come on! And then trying to claim he was being SCRUPULOUS? You must be kidding.

Now, being the mother of grown girls and overly protective, I’m quite aware of the places the young male mind can go very rapidly. (They’re lucky they didn’t go on dates with mom literally riding shotgun! In fact, some of their dating habits helped me want to turn roosters into hens with one shot!) Let’s be charitable and call it a biological reaction to stimulus. If I was a young man with such a problem and was honestly trying to live a Christian life, I would probably take very seriously the admonishment to make no provisions for the flesh. One of my daughters is still in the dating phase of life. If she were to even think about dating a guy like the OP or some of the other posters here, we’d have a nice talk and the guy would be told to hit the pike!

I apologize if some are offended by my rather strong opinions regarding this issue, but the sins they are courting are deadly.

I think some who don’t agree could get a copy of Mel Gibson’s film the Passion and view the Scourging at the pillar our dear Lord took and meditate on it reeeeeeal good then try to justify their sexual excesses and flippant excuses. Good luck!

Peace,

Gail

 

[The_Otaku]

But that wasn’t the OP’s question was it? He, a young man, was wondering how far was too far in viewing and working on busts of female nudes or just plain old viewing them on the INTERNET? Come on! And then trying to claim he was being SCRUPULOUS? You must be kidding.

I’m not trying to claim anything, and I am not kidding. I am scrupulous. There really is a way in the mind of a scrupulous person to wonder how far is too far with artistic nudity if it’s an issue they’re sensitive to, either drawing it or viewing it. One line of thought is ‘is it ok if she’s posed this way, but not that way revealing this much, but that not much, in this way but not that way’, etc, and you get into all these multi-faceted, deep, introspective what ifs where the rational mind trys to appease the scrupulousness by finding the least offense form nudity could exist in within the scrupulous parameters of the persons tastes, morals, and what/how they perceive others perceive the same thing.

Unless you’re a scrupulous person yourself, or have OCDs, have had them, or know people who have, I’d invite you to be a little more understanding and compassionate.

Let’s be charitable and call it a biological reaction to stimulus. If I was a young man with such a problem and was honestly trying to live a Christian life, I would probably take very seriously the admonishment to make no provisions for the flesh.

What problem would that be? Are you assuming that because artistic nudity is an issue I’m in deep thought and some conflict over, it says alot about how I treat or how I’d treat real women and their bodies?