As a Catholic, What do you think about Hiroshima?

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I’m going to reply to “estesbob” who said something to the effect that the United States should never have entered the war – perhaps “estesbob” has forgotten about Pearl Harbor – what were we to do after we were bombed in the Hawaiian Islands.
In reading so many of these comments I get a bit frustrated because our country seems always to be blamed for everything!!! I belong to a public affairs forum and several years ago a German historian wrote a book and it was discussed at the forum – the German questioned the "morality’ of the Allies bombing German cities – no mention was made of the London blitz which I believe went on and on for 8 or 9 months each and every night – no mention either of the MILLIONS of Jews and non-Jews killed in death camps.
I do NOT think it was Immoral for the USA to drop the atom bomb on Hiroshima – didn’t it END the war!!!
 
(Replying to Timothy H.'s posting:)

"There is a Catholic connection to the atomic bombs, and to our Blessed Mother as well.
The Catholic Holocaust of Nagasaki—“Why, Lord?”

The witness of the Catholics of Nagasaki shows God’s providence in the darkest of times.
By Brother Anthony Josemaria"

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Tim, I understand your intent and it is well taken. I read the article and acknowledge the Marian connections and amazing historical facts. My purpose in replying here is also to give another perspective, specifically on the attempt to find meaning in the tragedy of war. I thank you for including this article and respect the very learned author.

My reaction to the article would be this: Although I understand the poetic interpretation here, (that many may have drawn closer to God during the horrific destruction of Nagasaki,) I believe it is of equally great importance to remind ourselves that God’s loving intent for us, and that of our Blessed Virgin Mary, not only does not require destructive power to draw people closer, but that Our Heavenly Father does not desire or condone it. ("Love your enemies, pray for them…turn the other cheek…) Yet we live in an imperfect world and war is a reality.

The beautiful singing amid the terrible circumstances makes us pause and reflect upon the nature of war and also human nature’s tendency to drown out God’s Divine and constant, loving Intent for all of His creation.

Yes, the horror happened. And the singing of souls happened yet it was * despite the sinful nature of warring destruction not because of it. There is a gossamer difference perhaps, but a grave one. Christ, who came among us, truly Divine and truly human, and our Heavenly Father Himself condoned only one sacrificial act in history that is singularly salvific:* Our Lord on the Cross at Calvary, followed by His Resurrection and our hope of Paradise.

We live in a broken world. It is natural to try to make sense of the completely incomprehensible horror of war and to try to find some beauty amid the ashes. Countless words have been written to make sense of (or make peace with) the horrors of the summer of 1945 suffered by both Allied and Axis powers and by the innocents.

There were many such innocents there who had not the intellectual capacity to comprehend the horror of the bombs falling on Nagasaki: there were infants there, to whom Our Blessed Virgin had surely counted as beloved of God. What did these innocents, some of the youngest and the unborn hope to sing of amid the horrors of that dreadful day? If only we could hear a more Heavenly song of peace and refrain from the atrocities of war altogether.

If the beautiful people of Nagasaki were drawn closer to God, It was* despite* the terrors of armory and bombing that some may have sung openly. But God’s loving song was there for them all along, sung at Golgotha and before the world itself was born.

There is another child whose poignant story I would point to: that of Sadako Sasaki. To this day, children from all over the world visit her monument. Whether her terrible cancer had been caused by any other means, and not the effects of the bombing, God kept her just as close to His heart as if she was still able to run and play with her friends. Hers is an eyewitness account of an innocent suffering the horrors of deathly radiation.

Sadako died before she could complete the folding of her thousand paper cranes in the hope of staving off death. Today, millions of paper cranes made by schoolchildren scatter the earth around her monument. When these children sing, is it necessarily to find peace from the ashes of war or even to make sense of it? Only they can answer that. They seem to connect purely in love, a love that lives outside the boundaries of time, of space and of war.

Yes, voices may have risen in song amid the destruction at Nagasaki, a hymn amid war and incalculable destruction. God may draw us closer *despite *the tragedy of war, but never needing it, He is truly and has always been there as the Creator, never the “destroyer of worlds.”

I would only hope that more time is spent now in preventing other such horrors than in trying to make sense of senseless, endless warring. God’s plaintive song for peace and love was there long before the first battle cry. Can we hear it even decades later? Can we hear it from the Cross over two thousand years ago?

It is our human nature that defies seeing what beauty is there all along or refusing to hear God’s loving symphony in creation, in nature, in the innocent unborn. These are His eternal songs to us.

We can indeed see and hear God in the aftermath of war, even amid the terror of holocaust. He is ever -present in the world and in The Blessed Sacrament. My hope is that we can learn to sing openly as we learn to love our enemies, to pray for His kingdom to come, for His will to be done more and more on earth as it is in Heaven.

God’s song of love and Our Lady’s is perpetual, in war, in strife and in peace. I do pray that I can learn to hear Their song more clearly myself, in the quiet of gentle reflection and in working to bring His peace to the world, His “joy unspeakable and full of glory.” surpasses any glory of nationalism or temporal battle honors. His Divine Mercy and his song of love is for the whole world to discover. I pray we can find Him in the treasures of quiet, un-bloodied fields whenever possible.

Many Blessings,
Kathryn Ann
 
I’m going to reply to “estesbob” who said something to the effect that the United States should never have entered the war – perhaps “estesbob” has forgotten about Pearl Harbor – what were we to do after we were bombed in the Hawaiian Islands.
In reading so many of these comments I get a bit frustrated because our country seems always to be blamed for everything!!! I belong to a public affairs forum and several years ago a German historian wrote a book and it was discussed at the forum – the German questioned the "morality’ of the Allies bombing German cities – no mention was made of the London blitz which I believe went on and on for 8 or 9 months each and every night – no mention either of the MILLIONS of Jews and non-Jews killed in death camps.
I do NOT think it was Immoral for the USA to drop the atom bomb on Hiroshima – didn’t it END the war!!!
Again the myth that the “US a-bomb attacks ended WWII” rears its ugly head. Here are the facts: 1. 62 Japanese cities had been destroyed by fire-bombing prior to the atomic bombings. Some of these with an even greater loss of life than at Hiroshima. 2. The Japanese were asking the USSR (a neutral nation in the Pacific war) to negotiate a conditional peace with the US. Unknown to them, the Russians had agreed at Yalta to attack the Japanese within three months of Gemany’s surrender. The USSR’s declaration of war came as a shock, but the even greater shock was the swift and total Russian success against Japanese forces in Manchuria. 3. The US modified the “unconditonal surrender” demand by promising to grant immunity to Emperor Hirohito (although still calling it “unconditional.”)
These events enabled the “peace” faction of the Japanese government to stand up to and create a deadlock with the “war” faction. It was at this point that Emperor Hirohito took the unpreceded step of breaking a government impasse by asking his nation to accept the surrender terms. Of the above factors, the atomic bombings were, in reality, only a smaller one.
A second reality that ought to be remembered was that the US invasion of the Japanese main islands was not scheduled until November 1, 1945. So why the rush to drop those bombs in August? Declassified documents reveal that the US leadership was very concerned about the communist occupation of eastern Europe and did not want the same thing to happen in the far east. So Truman gave the order to drop the “bomb” (as well as modifying the surrender terms) in the hopes of providing additional incentive for surrender and also to “send a message” to the Russians. But, instead of dropping those horrible bombs, all that the US had to do was to sit back and allow the USSR to finish off Japan.
So that’s the real crime of the A-bomb attacks: they didn’t have much to do with ending the war, and actually were completely unnecessary for ending that war. It was just cold war politics.
 
I’m going to reply to “estesbob” who said something to the effect that the United States should never have entered the war – perhaps “estesbob” has forgotten about Pearl Harbor – what were we to do after we were bombed in the Hawaiian Islands.
In reading so many of these comments I get a bit frustrated because our country seems always to be blamed for everything!!! I belong to a public affairs forum and several years ago a German historian wrote a book and it was discussed at the forum – the German questioned the "morality’ of the Allies bombing German cities – no mention was made of the London blitz which I believe went on and on for 8 or 9 months each and every night – no mention either of the MILLIONS of Jews and non-Jews killed in death camps.
I do NOT think it was Immoral for the USA to drop the atom bomb on Hiroshima – didn’t it END the war!!!
I think the dropping of the bombs was the right thing to do. I was merely commenting on those who say the ends never justifies the means. If that is true we should never had entered the war no matter how evil the opposition was.
 
But, instead of dropping those horrible bombs, all that the US had to do was to sit back and allow the USSR to finish off Japan.
Well, based on the historical data provided by poster GKC, it seems to me that the bombs did cause the war to end more quickly and saved a great deal of lives. Still, I just wanted to comment on that one sentence above. It seems tome that leaving Japan to the USSR would have been a greater moral evil even than dropping the bombs. It would have been an even greater tragedy for Japan, had it come under the compass of Soviet Communism. The Black Book of Communism would have to have an added chapter for additional deaths in Japan.
 
Yes, the bombing ended the Japanese war efforts.
However, I’ll say more about that.

My father as a Navy officer took part in the Occupation of Japan.
What he saw in Japan, unrelated to Hiroshima or Nagasaki, was the horror of war.

The entire population was in state of prolonged starvation.
Until those bombings, ALL activity went to support the war efforts in Japan.
The only population in sight was women, some children and very old men.
All were virtually starving to death. Stopping the war brought food and medicine
back to people of Japan. Yes, it is horrible that so many died in the bombings.
May it never happen again.

Yet the bombings ended the war and that was the intention.
 
Yes, the bombing ended the Japanese war efforts.
However, I’ll say more about that.

My father as a Navy officer took part in the Occupation of Japan.
What he saw in Japan, unrelated to Hiroshima or Nagasaki, was the horror of war.

The entire population was in state of prolonged starvation.
Until those bombings, ALL activity went to support the war efforts in Japan.
The only population in sight was women, some children and very old men.
All were virtually starving to death. Stopping the war brought food and medicine
back to people of Japan. Yes, it is horrible that so many died in the bombings.
May it never happen again.

Yet the bombings ended the war and that was the intention.
My father also took part in occupation of Japan after the war and had the same observation your father did. My father was as liberal as they come but he always supported dropping the bombs-I suspect it had something to with him sitting on a ship offshore waiting take part in the invasion when they were dropped.
 
My father also took part in occupation of Japan after the had the same observation your father did. My father was as liberal as they come but he always supported dropping the bombs-I suspect it had something to with him sitting on a ship offshore waiting take part in the invasion when they were dropped.
Thanks, Bob. I’ve met very few who had the inside story from their fathers.
Thanks so much for your post. I know the shock of seeing the massive starvation
of all common citizens (the elderly, women and children) truly changed my father.

Yes, that war needed to END, for many reasons.
 
My father also took part in occupation of Japan after the war and had the same observation your father did. My father was as liberal as they come but he always supported dropping the bombs-I suspect it had something to with him sitting on a ship offshore waiting take part in the invasion when they were dropped.
Add one more…my father-in-law is a 5th Division Marine that partook in the invasion of Iwo. If you saw the beginning of Saving Private Ryan you’ll get an idea of what that invasion was like. He was as liberal as they come, yet agreed with the bombing.
 
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jeffrey_erwin:
Deleting your post, because of space limitations. My response:

We never modified the surrender terms. They were always stated as being IAW the Potsdam Declaration. Which, as the Japanese realized, was, a set of terms. Hence it was not unconditional. There was no specific statement, or even implication, as to the fate of the kokutai, at any time. But the peace faction in the Supreme Council for the Conduct of the War read between the lines, to assume the Throne and its preogatives would be adequately shielded.

That Japanese “peace” faction in the Supreme Council for the Conduct of the war (which varied, but was usually about half, led by Togo, opposed by the “Four Conditions” faction of Anami, Toyoda and Umezu) , with the Emperor’s tacit approval, was attempting to feel out the Russians, as to whether they might be willing to intercede for a negotiated peace, as you say. This was primarily done by Togo’s directions to Sato, the Japanese ambassador to Moscow. Who rightly saw that what was going on was not a sanctioned effort of the entire Supreme Council. As Sato told Togo repeatedly, the idea of a negotiated peace was a chimera. The Russians were not interested. Sato’s insistence that the only course was the acceptance of the Potsdam Declaration was accurate. But it was out of reach.

The Emperor’s response, at the gozen kaigan on 14 Aug, had been prepared by machinations between Togo, Kido, and the Emperor, in a move that broke with constitutional protocol. The Emperor directed the acceptance of the Potsdam Declaration.

The relative weight of the Russian intervention, and the bombs, is a topic of scholarly debate. As it was sometimes said, the bombs convinced the government and the Emperor, and the Russians more impressed the military. In his answer to the request, at the* gozen kaigan*, for a decision breaking the impasse, the Emperor emphasized the bombs, not the Russians. And the Russians did not alter the “conditional” faction’s position that an improved negotiated end to the war, which would preserve much of the threatened national structure, could be gained by a final application of the decisive battle concept, in following the* Ketsugo* plan, raising the butcher’s bill to the point that the conditions set by Anami’s group would be achieved.

The bombs were used as quickly as possible, once they were available, for a number of reasons, which might be summed up in the idea that the goal was to end the war as soon as might be. A number of reasons went into this thinking, including the cost of the proposed invasion of Kyushu, and the desire to keep the Russians from obtaining a position in Japan similar to that they had achieved behind the Red Army in Europe, by proceeding to Hokkaido, after they had overrun southern Sakhalin, as mentioned.

The use of the bombs and the end to the war they were instrumental in bringing about, was the single most efficient way to end the killing, in the most expeditious manner. Any other approach would have resulted in increased casualties on all sides, in all parts of the PTO. The average monthly toll during the war ran between 100.000 and 300,000 casualties a month: military, civilian, young, old, male, female, Japanese, Allied, Asian. The Russian attacks in Manchuria, into China and Korea, down Sakhalin and the Kuriles, resulted, in the roughly 20 days that fighting continued (the Russians did not stop with the Japanese surrender, they continued until they controlled such areas as they had desired) in an additional 12,000 plus Russian dead and over 82,000 Japanese dead. This was a delta to the average ongoing total in all parts of the Theater. With the British scheduled to begin Operation Zipper in the first week in Sep, and the vastly increased plans for conventional bombings on the Home Islands, any prolongation of the war would add hundreds of thousands deaths per month to the total.

The bombs were necessary to the ending of the war in the quickest manner possible, with the fewest deaths possible. Good.

As always, I recommend Frank’s DOWNFALL, Newman’s TRUMAN AND THE HIROSHIMA CULT (particularly his chaps 1-3, on the points here raised), Maddox’s WEAPONS FOR VICTORY, HIROSHIMA IN HISTORY: THE MYTHS OF REVISIONISM (ed. Maddox), Drea’s MACARTHUR’S ULTRA, the Pacific War Research Society’s JAPAN’S LONGEST DAY, as a beginning to an understanding of what actually went on in the end-game of WWII. And I most enthusiastically recommend a book I recently finished reading, Smith and McConnell’s THE LAST MISSION. An excellent overview and summary of what went on in the Japanese command structure. Though I think it has a couple of small mistakes, it can stand with Frank’s DOWNFALL.

The literature on the use of the bombs is voluminous, 65 years on. I’ve been reading it as a hobby for 15 years.

GKC
 
Well, based on the historical data provided by poster GKC, it seems to me that the bombs did cause the war to end more quickly and saved a great deal of lives. Still, I just wanted to comment on that one sentence above. It seems tome that leaving Japan to the USSR would have been a greater moral evil even than dropping the bombs. It would have been an even greater tragedy for Japan, had it come under the compass of Soviet Communism. The Black Book of Communism would have to have an added chapter for additional deaths in Japan.
I agree.

GKC
 
The bombs were necessary to the ending of the war in the quickest manner possible, with the fewest deaths possible. Good.

GKC
I will agree with this, and with this only. The debate centers around the use of the bombs against Hiroshima and Nagasaki. If the Japanese southern islands were the primary invasion points, why weren’t the bombs dropped there?

If the figures GKC quotes are in fact correct, then there is no question that the bombs were the quickest, cleanest option for ending the war. But to drop them against civilian targets (as per the usual “strategic bombing” campaign waged throughout the war) is completely immoral, as the Church has definitively stated in the Catechism.

The bombs could have been used morally, against military targets, sent the exact same message to bear the same result. However, that was not the case. Instead, hundreds of thousands of starving, lost, defenseless civilian lives were snuffed out.

God love you,
sandomenico
 
This is by far one of the most horrible crimes committed by humanity. I don’t think the use was justified.
 
I will agree with this, and with this only. The debate centers around the use of the bombs against Hiroshima and Nagasaki. If the Japanese southern islands were the primary invasion points, why weren’t the bombs dropped there?

If the figures GKC quotes are in fact correct, then there is no question that the bombs were the quickest, cleanest option for ending the war. But to drop them against civilian targets (as per the usual “strategic bombing” campaign waged throughout the war) is completely immoral, as the Church has definitively stated in the Catechism.

The bombs could have been used morally, against military targets, sent the exact same message to bear the same result. However, that was not the case. Instead, hundreds of thousands of starving, lost, defenseless civilian lives were snuffed out.

God love you,
sandomenico
In my comments on this subject, which I often find myself making (in disgust) around this time each year, I often have to point out that I do not discuss, nor am I interested in, the RCC moral teaching on weapons of mass destruction. As long as the discussion runs on those lines I do not participate. I’m interested in history and what actually did happen, with logical deductions therefrom; upon which scholars can differ. I usually repeat this, over a lengthy thread, as required. I have my own moral position, and I am not interested in comparing it to others, though I occasionally state it. But when the talk turns to history, in an attempt to bolster the Church teachings, (“And any way…” arguments) I do participate.

The use of the bombs was aimed at precluding the increasingly horrendous prospects for Operation Downfall, beginning with Olympic, on Kyushu, based on the Ultra intelligence on the actual Japanese strength on the island, derived from Japanese military communications, as referenced in the books I cited. In fact, the next 6-7 atomic bombs scheduled to be available before 1 Nov, (one was going to be ready by roughly the third week in August, and was tentatively planned for use on Tokyo) were being tentatively planned, as of mid August, for tactical use in support of the Kyushu landings. Marshall had inquired of Groves how many might be available; they would be used on the second line of Japanese defenses on Kyushu. After which the American landings would wait a day or so, then proceed through the radiation areas. So little was known of what that meant. It could have been so much worse. Including many, many more starving Japanese, civilians or otherwise, when the conventional bombing campaign, increased by over 600 additional B-29s, using APQ-7 enhanced bombing radar, began concentrating on the transportation systems, primarily to interdict food shipments (and also aimed at other targets, including the 180 cities with a population of at least 30,000). Starvation is particularly partial to the young and the old. And again this is looking only at the Home Islands, not the entire theater. Where the deaths would continue until the inevitable surrender.

Both Hiroshima and Nagasaki were legitimate military targets; the first the headquarters of Hata’s 2nd General Army, in overall command of Kyushu and most of Honshu, with a military/civilian ratio (45,000 troops on 5 Aug) probably the highest of any major city in the Islands, and the primary port of embarkation for Kyushu, the latter on that island itself (though Nagasaki was the secondary target for the 2nd bomb, Kokura was the original primary).

Two planes. Two bombs. No more war.

Good.
 
it took TWO bombs for japan to take us seriously.
So therefore…HAD TO DO IT. Thank you PResident Truman!
 
I’m interested in history and what actually did happen, with logical deductions therefrom; upon which scholars can differ. I usually repeat this, over a lengthy thread, as required. I have my own moral position, and I am not interested in comparing it to others, though I occasionally state it. But when the talk turns to history, in an attempt to bolster the Church teachings, (“And any way…” arguments) I do participate.

Both Hiroshima and Nagasaki were legitimate military targets; the first the headquarters of Hata’s 2nd General Army, in overall command of Kyushu and most of Honshu, with a military/civilian ratio (45,000 troops on 5 Aug) probably the highest of any major city in the Islands, and the primary port of embarkation for Kyushu, the latter on that island itself (though Nagasaki was the secondary target for the 2nd bomb, Kokura was the original primary).

Two planes. Two bombs. No more war.

Good.
How can morality be excluded from a discussion questioning the morality of dropping the atomic bombs?

What’s more, wouldn’t Kyushu and Honshu be far more militarized than any city on mainland Japan? They were the first targets of the invasion after all. Wouldn’t they have a far greater military presence and significance than any large city in mainland Japan? Honestly, why not drop the bombs on Kyushu and Honshu - military targets? No one could question the proportionality of civilian deaths. And the exact same result, the immediate ending of the war, would have come about.

God love you,
sandomenico
 
How can morality be excluded from a discussion questioning the morality of dropping the atomic bombs?

What’s more, wouldn’t Kyushu and Honshu be far more militarized than any city on mainland Japan? They were the first targets of the invasion after all. Wouldn’t they have a far greater military presence and significance than any large city in mainland Japan? Honestly, why not drop the bombs on Kyushu and Honshu - military targets? No one could question the proportionality of civilian deaths. And the exact same result, the immediate ending of the war, would have come about.

God love you,
sandomenico
I didn’t say morality should be excluded from such a discussion. I said I wasn’t interested in your concept of what was moral, nor in comparing it to mine. Nor, though I have respect for the magisterium, was I interested in what it taught and what you should affirm, as a RC, on the subject.Whatever the RCC requires you to affirm, you should affirm, given the relevant level of theological certainty of the teaching. As long as the discussion is limited to such things, I don’t participate. But I am interested in history. And when I see dubious, distorted, uninformed, or erroneous “history” being adduced in support of a moral assertion, I correct the history, factually, as best I can. For example, the bombs were dropped on Kyushu and Honshu. Those are not cities, but Home Islands. Hiroshima is on Honshu, Nagasaki on Kyushu. And note that the plan, as of the time of surrender, had become doing both: invade Kyushu, and use the next 6-7 bombs on that island in doing so. In fact, Frank, the best historian of the period I have read, believes that the invasion would not have occurred; that the bombs would have been used as the first two were, along with continued, expanded conventional bombing, and such innovations as chemical attacks on the rice crop. And the war would continue for months, and the deaths, throughout the theater, would continue likewise.

I notice that I left off the last sentence I intended to write, in the final paragraph in my reply to you above. While, as I stated, the two cities were legitimate military targets, the destruction of that military capacity in itself was not the expected cause of the Japanese surrender. Such destruction had taken place in many other places in the Islands and could have been done with multiple B-29 raids on those two cities, and the Japanese still were not prepared to surrender. Rather, It was the shock of the destruction realized from a single plane/single bomb. That is, it was not the destruction of that military capacity in itself that was the primary goal, it was the breaking of the Japanese will to continue the fighting. After the second bomb, it was no longer possible, except among the most fanatical, to believe that the Japanese could achieve a more favorable set of conditions to end the war, by causing the Allies (and themselves) unacceptable casualties in an invasion. This was the aim of the Ketsugo plan. But if this level of destruction could be achieved by a single plane/bomb, it was obvious that there might not be an invasion, and the Ketsugo tactics would never be used. Hence, the Emperor finally spoke (10 Aug) to overcome the war faction of the Supreme Council for the Direction of the War, and direct that the Potsdam Declaration be accepted.

The history of what happened, as is common in history, is complex and requires a little reading to follow. I’ve suggested some titles, above. I recommend them, again. If you prefer revisionist history, I could suggest that too.

GKC
 
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