As a Catholic...

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Mattjolley

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…am I required to take bible stories such as genesis and noah, etc literally? I was baptised, recieved first confession, communion and later confirmed as required, and am now a 21 year old fully practising Catholic, but this issue has never been clarified by anyone whilst i have been growing both physically and spiritually in the church. It only hit me the other day! My Religious Studies teacher did say genesis was an analogy once, but he only touched upon this as we were actually studying John at the time.

So, do i take stories like these literally? Take genesis for example, I certainly belive that God was at work when the earth was created, and that there was an instance where sin originated from man and so forth, but I find it hard to take an almost ‘creationist’ stance that it all happened word for word as the bible says.

Furthermore, I reconcile scientific reasoning with my belief that God has/had a guiding hand over the proceedings of evolution and so forth, is this an acceptable view?

I certainly belive the new testament to be true word for word, but some of the old testament seems far-fetched, and as i see it, in those instances, the writer is using the power of analogy, or simplfies the story/event to express what the holy spirit is telling him, as some things are so unfathomable (sp?) for the mere mortal to grasp. anyhow, clarification on this would be great, and sorry for the ramble!

Mainly all i want to know is whether my view of the old testament as a mix of analogy stories (eg creation) and also descriptions of true historical events (Moses and the Exodus etc) is acceptable. thanks. I still cant believe nobody ever cleared this up for me at any point, and why didnt I think to ask until now? I think until now i was happy to accept my view but id like to clarify it, its gotta be better than believing my own crafted ideas, id sooner accept that all of scripture is word for word true if i have to, so some guidance would be cool.👍

Matt
 
Mattjolley said:
…am I required to take bible stories such as genesis and noah, etc literally? I was baptised, recieved first confession, communion and later confirmed as required, and am now a 21 year old fully practising Catholic, but this issue has never been clarified by anyone whilst i have been growing both physically and spiritually in the church. It only hit me the other day! My Religious Studies teacher did say genesis was an analogy once, but he only touched upon this as we were actually studying John at the time.

So, do i take stories like these literally? Take genesis for example, I certainly belive that God was at work when the earth was created, and that there was an instance where sin originated from man and so forth, but I find it hard to take an almost ‘creationist’ stance that it all happened word for word as the bible says.

Furthermore, I reconcile scientific reasoning with my belief that God has/had a guiding hand over the proceedings of evolution and so forth, is this an acceptable view?

I certainly belive the new testament to be true word for word, but some of the old testament seems far-fetched, and as i see it, in those instances, the writer is using the power of analogy to express what the holy spirit is telling him, as some things are so unfathomable (sp?) for the mere mortal to grasp. anyhow, clarification on this would be great, and sorry for the ramble!

Mainly all i want to know is whether my view of the old testament as a mix of analogy stories (eg creation) and also descriptions of true historical events (Moses and the Exodus etc) is acceptable. thanks. I still cant believe nobody ever cleared this up for me at any point, and why didnt I think to ask until now? I think until now i was happy to accept my view but id like to clarify it.:confused:

Matt
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As I understand it, we are free to believe that God created through evolution. Yes, you are required to believe in the historical Adam and Eve (meaning that they were real persons who were the first true human beings on Earth), but not the story they are associated with (meaning you can believe the “Tree of Life” story is an analogy, as I do). This is the way I understand it, anyway.
What really happened between our first parents and Satan and God is unknown to us right now, but the Genesis story is there primarily to remind us that Original Sin involved pride, and led to our fallen nature.
 
As far as Noah goes, I believe there has ben some physical evidence of cataclysmic flooding on the Earth happening before. Can anyone else out there confirm this?
 
Asuno said:
As I understand it, we are free to believe that God created through evolution. Yes, you are required to believe in the historical Adam and Eve (meaning that they were real persons who were the first true human beings on Earth), but not the story they are associated with (meaning you can believe the “Tree of Life” story is an analogy, as I do). This is the way I understand it, anyway.
What really happened between our first parents and Satan and God is unknown to us right now, but the Genesis story is there primarily to remind us that Original Sin involved pride, and led to our fallen nature.
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Thanks for your speedy answer!
And yes, I do believe Adam and Eve were the first humans, and that sin originated from them, but I just struggle with the details the scriptures give. Looks like I’m in the clear then;)

Matt
 
Mattjolley said:
Thanks for your speedy answer!
And yes, I do believe Adam and Eve were the first humans, and that sin originated from them, but I just struggle with the details the scriptures give. Looks like I’m in the clear then;)

Matt
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Yep! Keep asking questions, though! 🙂
 
wow, you’re from Calgary! My childhood hero comes from there. (This is all on a sidenote, of course:D )

Matt
 
Former Pro-Wrestler Bret ‘Hitman’ Hart, I’m finally meeting him in february at a convention, haha. What a way to go off-topic!

Matt
 
Mattjolley said:
Former Pro-Wrestler Bret ‘Hitman’ Hart, I’m finally meeting him in february at a convention, haha. What a way to go off-topic!

Matt
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Isn’t that something? What a small world we live in. He was good friends with an old boyfriend of mine.

(I haven’t seen any of those guys in many years.)
 
If you are abl I would read “On Faith and reason” [Fides et Ratio]

Take the story of Genesis … is that Book a science text book describing the origins of man in scientific detail? if you answer YES, then … :confused:

Genesis is a the story of our relationship with our Creator and the Creator’s self revelation to His created …

Is the 7 day persiod the focus or is it God’s ability to create from ‘nothing’ … to speak us into being and for what purpose … ? To walk and talk and commune … then we seperated ourselves from God …

In scripture studies Father asks us what people might think about us if they descovered writings we see every day … if someone 1000’s of years later stumbled upon ‘Calvin & Hobbs’ would they think that we believed ‘Tigers’ could speak? Take the “Velveteen Rabbit” … are there no ‘truths’ to be learned from the story [a book of fiction] about love?

Humor is found in scripture and can be a tool to imparting a message …

The Scriptures are God’s inspired writings … they are infallable and inerrant in the faith, morals and truths found there … the writings are written by a variety of authors for a variety of audinces and are writtten in a variety of literary styles … there are some elements of history, some bioography, geography and even some facts that can e seen as mathematical and scientific … but the writings are primarily about the Creator and hte Created, the relationship between a people searching for God and understanding the realities of world …

There are some very good commentaries [catholic] on the scriptures … and a good place to start even before the commentaries are the footnotes in your bible …

And though there are some here at CAF who do not like the book, “Reading the Old Testament” by Father Boadt is a good place to start … and “Reading the New Testament” by Perkins might help …
 
You are not required to consider all the stories of Genesis as historically accurate.

I do not believe the story of Adam and Eve to be literally true, but instead, a way to teach us to obey God. One must realize that people in Biblical times did not have as accurate a worldview as we have today. They were very superstitious and were quick to associate unrelated things with each other. They believed sickness/disease were punishments for sin, and that natural disasters were also punishments for upsetting God. Today, we know this is not the case. The story of Adam and Eve is someone’s attempt at trying to make sense of our chaotic world. This someone assumes that the world is chaotic because there was some “breach of contract” with our creator.

Keep in mind that those in the Bible did not know the “world” to be as big as it really is. Even Columbus was blindsided by the existence of North and South America. Their view of the world was the little bit of existence that they knew of…if some major flood occurred in the “world” as they knew it, they would assume that the entire world had been flooded. Logistically, it is quite impossible for a group of people to construct a vesel that could hold the millions of species in this world. Also, Noah would have to carefully place each species in its respective environment to ensure survival. He would have to put kangaroos back in Australia, pandas in China, etc. I believe this story to be figurative, but based on maybe a bit of truth. I see it as one’s mistaken interpretation of a natural disaster as a punishment from God. The message is strong though…don’t disobey God.
 
Mattjolley said:
…am I required to take bible stories such as genesis and noah, etc literally? I was baptised, recieved first confession, communion and later confirmed as required, and am now a 21 year old fully practising Catholic, but this issue has never been clarified by anyone whilst i have been growing both physically and spiritually in the church. It only hit me the other day! My Religious Studies teacher did say genesis was an analogy once, but he only touched upon this as we were actually studying John at the time.

So, do i take stories like these literally? Take genesis for example, I certainly belive that God was at work when the earth was created, and that there was an instance where sin originated from man and so forth, but I find it hard to take an almost ‘creationist’ stance that it all happened word for word as the bible says.

Furthermore, I reconcile scientific reasoning with my belief that God has/had a guiding hand over the proceedings of evolution and so forth, is this an acceptable view?

I certainly belive the new testament to be true word for word, but some of the old testament seems far-fetched, and as i see it, in those instances, the writer is using the power of analogy, or simplfies the story/event to express what the holy spirit is telling him, as some things are so unfathomable (sp?) for the mere mortal to grasp. anyhow, clarification on this would be great, and sorry for the ramble!

Mainly all i want to know is whether my view of the old testament as a mix of analogy stories (eg creation) and also descriptions of true historical events (Moses and the Exodus etc) is acceptable. thanks. I still cant believe nobody ever cleared this up for me at any point, and why didnt I think to ask until now? I think until now i was happy to accept my view but id like to clarify it, its gotta be better than believing my own crafted ideas, id sooner accept that all of scripture is word for word true if i have to, so some guidance would be cool.👍

Matt
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***Hi, Matt!

Faith!

Do you place your faith on a theory of evolution which says that everything that exists is pure coincidence times myriads of happy coincidences or do you trust that an Omnipotent Creator exacted Creation?

Yahweh says “I made everything with my Power and Purpose.” The theory of evolution says “chance, baby, pure chance–no design, no purpose, no reason… oh yeah baby!”

True, there are difficult accounts in Scriptures, but have you considered the mind of men several thousand years back? Would they have required a deeper revelation than “God created the world in 6 days (six time frames)?” Would they need to know that several eons passed between one stage of creation and the next? …have you considered that if Yahweh can extract a thousand years from a day or expand a day into a thousand years (a measurement of time we can understand), could He not have created everything that exists with a single Willful Though?

Though the Bible contains facts and scientific references, it is an accumulation of Sacred Writings to teach us about God. The perspective is theological but we can find facts and hints about the temporal values in which we exist.

Employ at least as much faith as you would human reason and the Holy Spirit will enlighten your understanding.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
‘It not infrequently happens that something about the earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and moon, about the passage of years and seasons, about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian. It is too disgraceful and ruinous, though, and greatly to be avoided, that he [the non-Christian] should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters, and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are. In view of this and in keeping it in mind constantly while dealing with the book of Genesis, I have, insofar as I was able, explained in detail and set forth for consideration the meanings of obscure passages, taking care not to affirm rashly some one meaning to the prejudice of another and perhaps better explanation.’
St Augustine: The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 1:19–20, Chapt. 19

As for Noah’s flood I think there was a giant flood in the Middle East at one stage in a realistic time frame, though not 100%. Telling that it’s not global is that the people desribed as descendants of Noah are all names of countries, and they are all countries nearish Israel (south to Ethiopia, west to Greece/Libya, east to Iran, north to the southern parts of Russia and sort of Romania type area
 
jcrichton said:
Do you place your faith on a theory of evolution which says that everything that exists is pure coincidence times myriads of happy coincidences or do you trust that an Omnipotent Creator exacted Creation?
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Actually, the theory of evolution does not contradict God’s plan if God intended evolution to take the course that it has.

In Pope John Paul II’s *Truth Cannot Contradict Truth *(1996), the Catholic Church asserts its acceptance of evolution’s validity, but states that it is all part of God’s plan.
 
That’s right.

In response to the OP, no, not all bible stories are meant to be taken literally…and sometimes it doesn’t matter.

For example, does it matter in Genesis whether or not the Almighty created the earth in 6-24 hour periods or over the course of 6 million years through an evolutionary process?

Sure, it’d be interesting to know, but what really matters in the first creation story is that God made all of creation, that he made it orderly and he made it good (along with other lessons we can get from Genesis).

Similarly with the story of Jonah; the point of the story isn’t whether or not Jonah literally spent three days in the belly of a great fish or not.

The bible is like a newspaper in that there’s history (reporting), fiction, drama and even humor, in places. It isn’t meant to all be read literally. That being said, much of it is meant to be taken literally. 🙂
 
In my view, many of the stories in Genesis are a dramatic retelling of historical events. There was a flood, but the way that it is described favors the spiritual meaning of the event, rather than the historical event on which it is based. So, for example, water did not cover the whole earth, and not every animal was on the ark, but there was a great flood and there was an ark with animals on it. God used this event as a figure to describe the all encompassing flood of sin on earth and the salvation from sin in the Church.
 
jcrichton said:
***Hi, Matt!

Faith!

Do you place your faith on a theory of evolution which says that everything that exists is pure coincidence times myriads of happy coincidences or do you trust that an Omnipotent Creator exacted Creation?
Click to expand...
My faith rests in believing that either way the world was created, it was no accident, and that it was all God’s handiwork, right back to the ‘big bang’🙂
 
As far as Noah goes, I believe there has ben some physical evidence of cataclysmic flooding on the Earth happening before. Can anyone else out there confirm this?
Click to expand...
There were a series of chatastrophic floods in the middle east in Noahs time. The Sumerians and Babylionias had memories huge floods and similar stories as Noah.
So there must happened a real story and them time and oral tradition adder ornaments and details according to the spiritual message.
 
JMBNH said:
As for Noah’s flood I think there was a giant flood in the Middle East at one stage in a realistic time frame, though not 100%. Telling that it’s not global is that the people desribed as descendants of Noah are all names of countries, and they are all countries nearish Israel (south to Ethiopia, west to Greece/Libya, east to Iran, north to the southern parts of Russia and sort of Romania type area
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***Hi, JMBNH!

…Biblical language is funny that way… in recent history we witnessed parts of Europe being flooded in no time at all; then, ditto in the US… so it is not that rain waters cannot cover the full surface of the Earth (specially if Willed by God to do so). When the Bible speaks of Noah and his immidiate family and those who surrounded them it could very well be that it is making reference to that region of the world (that known to them) as that that was flooded, not necessarily the whole planet.

Maran atha!

Angel***
 
vrlobo88 said:
Actually, the theory of evolution does not contradict God’s plan if God intended evolution to take the course that it has.

In Pope John Paul II’s *Truth Cannot Contradict Truth *(1996), the Catholic Church asserts its acceptance of evolution’s validity, but states that it is all part of God’s plan.
Click to expand...
***Hi, vrlobo!

…not from a Catholic perspective; however, every single theorist that I have spoken with maintains that there was no Omnipotent Creator. They rest their trust on the chaotic theory (chaos creates order which brings forth life).

Just recently I watched a program on a cable channel which furthers the evolution theory with the “emergence” hypothesis (latter word, my term); there are three European nations involved in this massive under-ground super-duper gizmo which will accelerate two subatomic particles, (forgot the actual term used) to “x” velocity, in opposite directions, in order to force this fantastic collision which is purported to produce the ultra subatomic particles from which “life emerged.” At the time of the televised program they were setting the final parts in place; the total cost of the project (parts only) is well over a billion dollars and scientists (and most likely governments) from various nations are collaborating in peaceful coexistence as they search for the creator of life!

What irony… the one project that gets so many brilliant minds together is one which will, once and for all, determine that there was no Creation but that life simply “emerged!” Reminded me of the Tower of Babel!

Maran atha!

Angel***
 
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