As a former believer, in some ways I miss believing

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You are oblivious or unaware of the long tradition of Catholic philosophy and its importance in the distribution of faith. Its a part of our duty as Catholics to give rational reasons for our beliefs to the world. Its not just a private service for those who are willing to believe blindly. Sorry to hear that you are missing out.
Catholic philosophers have a very intimate personal relationship to their God. They understand the revealed God, with whom they are related, as the “principle” of their science. Aquinas gives “reasoned explanation” for the questions of Whether God is Father?, Whether God is Word? or Son?, and Whether God is Spirit? because that is how he knows them.
I can give you rational descriptions or reasons for everything I beleive, but you do not need that at this point. Rather you need to meet the Persons. Then you can reason about what it means knowing the persons. Then you can battle the hosts of temptations that want to keep you away from those Persons you dearly love.
You have to have the beliefs, you have to know the Persons, and love them, before you can reason through all the implications of Their reality.

John Martin
 
You have to have the beliefs, you have to know the Persons, and love them, before you can reason through all the implications of Their reality.

John Martin
It is true that you have to have a relationship with God in order to know God personally, But it is not true that you have to have a relationship in-order to reason about Gods metaphysical nature and existence. You can reason to Gods metaphysical nature and existence without first being a Christian or Catholic.
 
It is true that you have to have a relationship with God in order to know God personally, But it is not true that you have to have a relationship in-order to reason about Gods metaphysical nature and existence. You can reason to Gods metaphysical nature and existence without first being a Christian or Catholic.
The reasoning is only a theory until you encounter the object of your theorizing.
After that, the reasoning, while still theorizing, measures itself (measures its understanding) against the real object, correcting itself where it has not seen or known the object fully, so that the understanding eventually matches the objective reality. Without the objective reality that matches the understanding, there is unrest. (our hearts are restless until they rest in thee… I believe that is how Augustine worded it).

John Martin
 
Are you all folks here firmly convinced that atheism is necessarily a bad thing?

{ducks for cover}
 
I have to disagree with this. My refutations of God is that there is no real proof that God exists. Christianity is here for one reason and one reason only: Constantine’s conversion. If Constantine never converted Christianity would have died with the Roman empire.
IM:
There’s no real proof that anything exists. That which is supposedly on the outside of our eyes is often very different from person to person. In fact, that which is supposedly on the inside of our eyes, is also very different from person to person. That there are other beings outside our eyes, is a common dilemma for philosophers and physicists.

Consider the atom. An atom consists of “point” particles. What are “point particles?” We define them just as we define a point of a line: a point particle is the principle of materiality. A “principle” is that from which anything flows in any manner whatsoever. It is often called, the “beginning” of something. We understand point particles to be dimensionless. In other words, if you were to stack a billion points straight up on some table, that billion points would attain no height. It would look as though there was still only the original point particle. If a point particle is dimensionless, how then do material things attain Real dimensionality? How then do Real things attain mass? Physics has its theories. Take a look at those theories. They are not real good explanations.

Within an atom are protons, neutrons and electrons. All point particles. Between the protons and neutrons of the nucleus are spaces. Spaces? Consisting of what? Out in the electron shell is more space - typically 50,000 times larger in extent than the nucleus. Space? Consisting of what? In a “soup” there is liquid. In the liquid are the chunks of meat, potatoes, and veggies - each one surrounded by the liquid in which they are immersed. The difference is, we know what the liquid is.

We have been convinced of the Real truths of physics because of consensus. But, no one asked me. And very often even fellow physicists disagree. Man thereby bases his Reality on models, hypotheses and theories. In my opinion, all of them remain hypotheses forever - always open to alteration, even to the point of total discredit. So, are there any real proofs for anything? Seriously?

Our investigations of Reality always involve a dialectic. From that dialectical investigation, we form demonstrations. We prove our demonstrations by experimentation. When we get to a point where the results are always, or nearly always, the same and therefore, predictable, we believe we have experienced a fact. But, have we? I know that there is gravity without knowing the math. I know that fire is hot, without having to measure a flame’s temperature. That’s a priori, or intuition. That there is gravity and that a flame is hot are facticals that everyone knows from experience. But that virtual particles are able to pop into and out of existence - by themselves - is a hypothesis that is largely imaginative. As such, it becomes a object of belief, or disbelief.

The demonstrative proofs for God’s existence are considerably stronger than the former. They, in fact, when fully understood and absorbed, leave little doubt of His existence. Yet, along the way, many people have simply “bought a line.” We have, despite our reason, been sold on and have accepted that Aquinas’ proofs have been debunked. They have not. But that is the “line” touted by no-God salesmen. Don’t fall for it; do your own investigating. And, peruse both sides and whatever is in between.

God bless,
jd
 
Who has ever said a NDE is oxygen deprivation? The brain secretes all sorts of neurotransmitters in your brain that can cause all sorts of crazy things to happen.
Many skeptics. Some right here on CAF, in fact. However, “the brain secreting neurotransmitters making crazy things happen” is not a scientifically-based explanation for NDEs, either.
As for Constantine’s conversion, you are right. Christianity still might be around today if Constantine didn’t convert. I should say that if the whole of the Roman empire didn’t convert, Christianity would likely not be around today.
That’s an interesting opinion and would be a decent topic for a thread debate.
 
Are you all folks here firmly convinced that atheism is necessarily a bad thing?

{ducks for cover}
Neither atheism, nor theism, nor panentheism are bad things - they are theories believed to match reality. As long as there is reality to bounce against theories, beliefs about the theories will grow and change and sometimes be replaced.

To the “realities” of the world, Catholocism presents Jesus as God with us, the Church, as Jesus with us. Revelation to re-think the principle theories.

John Martin
 
+JMJ+
A true Christian life is a life full of spiritual struggle. Its a spiritual warfare for those who know better insofar as they know that they are sinners (have a tendency toward sin and temptation). The only people who don’t struggle are the people who don’t know there is a problem.
That’s why we say not to trust ourselves, but to fully trust in God. It is quite foolish to believe that there is no evil in one’s self or in the world when everything around and in you screams that that is not true.

On the other hand, perfect self-distrust and full confidence in God removes fear, self-doubt and self-inferiority because you do not even bother listening to the doubts in you on whether you can survive this or that, or that whether you are doing God’s will or not, or even if you are worthy of anything or not. Start living like this, and you will find all the graces, all the strengths, all the guidance, all the joy and peace you need in the sacrament of the present moment.
 
Aquinas’ arguments have been around for a long time and it’d be difficult to summarize the debates they’ve generated. But, you probably know the objections lodged against them as well as the Thomist responses to these.

I think what explains why we regard these arguments differently is that at somewhere down the line, I found some objections to these arguments convincing and you didn’t. Or, that you found the Thomist response to these objections convincing and I didn’t.

Why would these objections/responses convince you but fail to convince me (or vice versa)? Well we don’t evaluate how plausible a claim is in isolation. We discern a claim’s plausibility in light of all our other beliefs. We bring a host of assumptions with us when we evaluate claims. So, I’m willing to bet that we disagree on some deeper issue which effected how we judged the exchanges over Aquinas’ ways (and continues to).
Perplexity:

Actually, there’s a third option. I know you have met people who had trouble understanding complex things. That is the third option: whether or not the so-called objection was really a valid objection. What I’ve found - in every attempt to digest an opposing argument - is that the arguer did not understand St. Thomas’ arguments. Now, it was either that or the arguer altered his argument in order to “win.” I look through the posts herein, both pro and con, and realize that even the pro apologists, in most cases, do not understand Aquinas’ arguments! (So, it’s not unusual that a opposing arguer doesn’t.) That’s why I’ve offered, and have occasionally had my offer accepted, to go one-on-one with anyone who thinks they have a valid counter-argument to any of St. Thomas’ proofs. As far as I remember, I’ve had one serious taker, and we spent many, many days on the First Way. While I might not have convinced him, at least he now knows the difference between the real Thomistic argument and a straw man.

God bless,
jd
 
I don’t think so at all. All we know about a creator is they would be capable of creating the universe. We don’t know if they are even alive today. We don’t know if they are good or bad. We don’t know if they participate in the world or anything. If the universe was created, all we would know is that it was created by something capable of creating it. You could not make any other sound inferences.
IM:

You certainly can. . . .

Who do you know that is capable of CREATING a UNIVERSE? I helped pro-create three children. But, that’s the best I could do.

God bless,
jd
 
I can’t sympathize because I’ve always believed in God, but I know what you mean. I’ve had times and still do have times where I question all of this, but my heart truly believes in it in the end. It’s something that makes sense to me. I love logic and science very much, but even I know they have limitations. There’s only so much they can truly explain.

Why can’t there be a God? Why can’t there be something far greater than you out there? Because as I see it, even if you’re atheist, you must recognize that there is physical proof of something out there far greater than yourself, and that’s the ever expanding universe.

Whether you want to believe the universe was just pure chance, or a work of eternal love is up to you, but really think about it. We were given the gift of reason, but you must recognize that it has its limitations and that we’re not supposed to understand God, because we can never be God. We may know a little bit, but we can’t even begin to understand the complexities of God, and the universe for that matter. There’s only so much we can know.

I guess what I’m trying to say is, if you miss the faith, why not look into it some more? Because there is something far greater than yourself out there. Whether you want to believe in chance or God is up to you, but the answer has to come from within you. Given that there is physical proof of something infinite (the universe), why can’t you give the thought of God existing a second try? He’s also an infinite being.

Also, why can’t things happen for a reason? I’m a firm believer of that. I don’t think God manages our lives, but there’s definitely events put out there to test us and to have us grow as people.
 
Are you all folks here firmly convinced that atheism is necessarily a bad thing?

{ducks for cover}
No, God uses all sorts of things to bring people to Him. Atheism has been a sure path to God for many people.
 
In reponse to other poster…

No. I am in no way convinced of that. If anything…never mind. It just seems to be more depressing in a way, I guess, since there is no “after-life” and no one is really loving you and watching out for you. What scares me is that I do not know either way, right now. Both ideas scare me! What if I die and that IS all I get? Then what harm can have come to me due to believing in God?
I know this sounds stupid, but I really, REALLY wish I could settle this in my own heart. Or that God would appear to me, or something. (I mean that with all due respect, of course.)
In getting back to your question, I think that atheists are generally pretty nice folk, who have their own pov, just as I do. Nothing wrong with that, as long as they respect another view.
Do I make any type of sense?
 
I don’t think so at all. All we know about a creator is they would be capable of creating the universe. We don’t know if they are even alive today. We don’t know if they are good or bad. We don’t know if they participate in the world or anything. If the universe was created, all we would know is that it was created by something capable of creating it. You could not make any other sound inferences.
I guess you haven’t looked very deeply into this question. The God that natural reason alone allows us to know with certainty not only created the universe, but holds it in existence each and every instant. That God is also (by natural reason alone) has all the properties generally associated with God.
 
Perplexity:

Actually, there’s a third option. I know you have met people who had trouble understanding complex things. That is the third option: whether or not the so-called objection was really a valid objection. What I’ve found - in every attempt to digest an opposing argument - is that the arguer did not understand St. Thomas’ arguments. Now, it was either that or the arguer altered his argument in order to “win.” I look through the posts herein, both pro and con, and realize that even the pro apologists, in most cases, do not understand Aquinas’ arguments! (So, it’s not unusual that a opposing arguer doesn’t.) That’s why I’ve offered, and have occasionally had my offer accepted, to go one-on-one with anyone who thinks they have a valid counter-argument to any of St. Thomas’ proofs. As far as I remember, I’ve had one serious taker, and we spent many, many days on the First Way. While I might not have convinced him, at least he now knows the difference between the real Thomistic argument and a straw man.

God bless,
jd
Sure, that’s a fair third option, but on that note I s’pose it’s also possible that you’ve misunderstood an objection to Aquinas’ ways, it’s only fitting that an objection to a complex argument be subtle.

I’d be interested in an exchange over Aquinas’ Ways, but could only invest so much time. Maybe if we narrowed it to one of his ways, say the first?
 
I respectfully suggest your cozy, warm bride-to-be is as much an idealized phantasm as your cozy, warm God-Who-Is. “Work out your salvation in fear and trembling.” You sound a little simplistic. Like the Virgin Mary, we are given a history of hope, like prophecy fulfilled against astronomical odds; while we personally are given only a few, salient clues; and we must step out in faith, clinging to our Creator; and live out our lives in awe, in fear and trembling, not any particular security. Yes, it’s wobbly. You’ve just noticed you’ve taken to the tightrope without your balancing pole. My free advice? Ask God if He’s real.
 
The reasoning is only a theory until you encounter the object of your theorizing.
That is not true. A metaphysical argument for God is not a theory. Metaphysics properly understood provides absolute certainty of Gods existence.
 
You know if Jesus let me put my fingers in his wounds I would probably believe in Him too.

You talk about proofs that you have and when God talked to you. It is funny, because when I was a believer I had proofs too. I thought about different times that God had proven himself to me and spoken to me. When I stopped believing I started actually analyzing these situations and realized there was nothing super natural about them. They were coincidences or regular biological functions relating to severe stress that caused these “proofs.”
And the universe is all one incomprehensible coincidence right? The universe that is so intricately designed, our bodies made up of thousands of parts and veins and muscles, all dependent on one another to keep itself functioning, all coincidentally came together for no apparent reason other than “just because?” To me “that” kind of thinking is illogical. There are many miracles that science has not and can not disprove that you might want to look into if you’re struggling with the atheistic mindset that there is no afterlife (thus this life is worthless and meaningless and nothing you do matters). Eucharistic miracles, the shroud of Turin, the Tilma, etc. etc.
 
I guess you haven’t looked very deeply into this question. The God that natural reason alone allows us to know with certainty not only created the universe, but holds it in existence each and every instant. That God is also (by natural reason alone) has all the properties generally associated with God.
How do you figure? I will use a creationist analogy: when you see a car you know that it has a creator. But you can deduce nothing of that creator other than it is capable of creating a car. That is it.

It certainly isn’t logical to say that the world was created by a being greater than us AND this being must be a good being that is omniscient. Neither of those things (or really any other property associated with God) is necessary to create the universe.
 
And the universe is all one incomprehensible coincidence right? The universe that is so intricately designed, our bodies made up of thousands of parts and veins and muscles, all dependent on one another to keep itself functioning, all coincidentally came together for no apparent reason other than “just because?” To me “that” kind of thinking is illogical. There are many miracles that science has not and can not disprove that you might want to look into if you’re struggling with the atheistic mindset that there is no afterlife (thus this life is worthless and meaningless and nothing you do matters). Eucharistic miracles, the shroud of Turin, the Tilma, etc. etc.
IF there is no afterlife, that means this life is arguably MORE important because it is the only one you have. And what do you mean that life is worthless and meaningless and nothing you do matters? If I go out and kill a bunch of people, I am pretty sure it will matter to the people I kill, their family, and for me…because there will be consequences. You really see this life as just a big test for the afterlife? In that scenario nothing really matters in this life.

And I do believe that our bodies came together from evolution over billions of years. And as I said, even IF you can see evidence of a creator (evidence I disagree with) in no way does that mean there is an afterlife, or that the creator is not dead or gone, or even that the creator was good.
 
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