As an ex-Catholic do you really know what the Church teaches?

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Little Deb, your post…#129 was awesome. After reading it I thought to myself that you must create a book…you write so clearly!

Mr. Macleod I actually personally know and have done multiple debates with. He is a good man, and does love to debate. That being stated, I personally feel that he is being sincere trying to get answers, although, he has a short fuse at time and will turn a bit red 😃

He has actually helped me quite a bit getting more familiar with my faith, and drove another friend right back into a missionary 👍 I still have a way to go, but enjoy learning my faith.

Anyway, I just wanted to say thanks to all of you as I have truly enjoyed reading your writings on this site.

I do have one question. I read an article, and I don’t remember if it was on a apologetic site or the Vatican in which it states the Church’s belief is if you are sent to hell you are bonded, and for a lack of words this late at night, requested to ask for forgiveness to be saved?

Reason for asking…
  1. Another Catholic friend of mine stated once you are in hell you are done.
  2. If this is true, then it is not widely known from what I can tell.
Thanks again, love the site.
 
Morning_Sun said:
Little Deb, your post…#129 was awesome. After reading it I thought to myself that you must create a book…you write so clearly!

Mr. Macleod I actually personally know and have done multiple debates with. He is a good man, and does love to debate. That being stated, I personally feel that he is being sincere trying to get answers, although, he has a short fuse at time and will turn a bit red 😃

He has actually helped me quite a bit getting more familiar with my faith, and drove another friend right back into a missionary 👍 I still have a way to go, but enjoy learning my faith.

Anyway, I just wanted to say thanks to all of you as I have truly enjoyed reading your writings on this site.

I do have one question. I read an article, and I don’t remember if it was on a apologetic site or the Vatican in which it states the Church’s belief is if you are sent to hell you are bonded, and for a lack of words this late at night, requested to ask for forgiveness to be saved?

Reason for asking…
  1. Another Catholic friend of mine stated once you are in hell you are done.
  2. If this is true, then it is not widely known from what I can tell.
Thanks again, love the site.
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Thank you for your response, also thank you to JCChick. Welcome both of you to CAF! It warms my heart when new members are touched by something I write. It reminds me of the ultimate beauty of the universal Church. Someone was affected by something I said as a Catholic and their spiritual life was deepened. I have found in my life as a Christian that I am to learn something from everyone I encounter. If they learn something from me, then all the better!

On your question on Hell. Let’s take it to a PM or another thread. I am the semantics police. The term “sent to Hell” needs to be defined before it can even be addressed. We aren’t actually sent to Hell. We choose it through our own free will. Please PM me and I will see if I can help, or start a thread on it and let me know to join.

I had hoped to discuss that post with macleod. I was treading carefully in the hopes of not frustrating him into leaving the thread. His early join date, but low post count spoke to me. I hope he will return to the forum soon. Please tell him for me, God speed in his certification test.

In my journey where I nearly left the Church I discovered a few things. Namely, that I wasn’t as smart as I thought I was and that there is no such thing as an original thought. I found out that every single question I was asking, every “original” challenge I made to the Church had already been asked. Once I realized that, I found that all I really had to do was pick one particular topic and dig and dig some more until I got to the official teaching. Then I found out that all I really had to do was go to the real documents of the Church first. But then I looped back on myself in finding that when I read Church documents, I really didn’t understand them, because I wasn’t as smart as I thought I was.

I discovered at the time, (as an almost ex member of the Church nearly Protestant myself,) that I knew about enough about Christ and His Church to fill a thimble. Your average well-reasoned, educated, devout Catholics like my parents could fill a large mixing bowl with their understanding. While the Church, herself, can overflow 1000 Olympic size swimming pools 20,000 times over. Once I realized that there was that much information out there I knew I had to get to work. I couldn’t leave with a thimble of knowledge. Once that one drop overflowed my thimble, I was hooked and I’ve never looked back! I think now I can fill a large soup bowl. 😃

If I had two talks I could recommend to macloed, based on his POV and circumstances they would be these, in this order: “Ecumenism” by Peter Kreeft, peterkreeft.com/audio/03_ecumenism.htm It might start out sounding like the same old, same old, but it isn’t as it progresses.

and “One Church” by John Martignoni biblechristiansociety.com/download about halfway down the page. Even if macleod didn’t agree, Martignoni asks some good questions.

And of course I would always recommend anything and everything on “Theology of the Body.” That is the biggest single topic that has deeply affected me.

I say a special prayer for all of my friends who have left the Church. I discuss it with them every chance I get. They say they aren’t offended by me because of my approach. Please pray that I can continue to be humble enough to be worth their time.
 
Albina said:
As an Ex -catholic i know by the grace of God that the rcc church is** full of lies **. I’ve seen enough

so did this guy Benny D
aomin.org/why_I_left.html
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Wow, that’s a lot of bolding for so late at night! That link has already been posted in this thread. Personally I wouldn’t go as far as peary in calling it stupid, but I agree it is lacking all depth. Please see post #131 from With Love for a good observation on it.

God bless you in your continued understanding of Christ and His Church.
 
macleod said:
Well, as I think I have demonstrated, people will speak as an authority for the Roman church, however, I have found seemingly contradictory statements. I have heard “no one outside the church (church meaning Roman Catholic) will be saved” as the official position and then heard “it only means people that are in full communion with the RCC” to “God only knows”. Surely, there is an officially document that says what the church’s official position is.
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Catechism paragraph 846 explains this specifically.

“God only knows” is not the official Catholic teaching…if someone told you that they probably meant we cannot judge the soul of anyone outside the Catholic Church because of varying culpability, see the surrounding Catechism paragraphs about the Church.
 
Hi macleod,

If you do return to this thread, I would like to suggest the writings of the early church fathers. Here’s a link that could get you started:

earlychurchfathers.org/

God bless 🙂
 
Mirdath said:
Hahahahaha…

I do not claim to understand everything about the Church – that kind of study takes entire lifetimes, and very, very few even among Catholics understand everything about it. However, I am quite well catechized, not by virtue of the couple-few years I spent in a Catholic elementary school but more from the several years after that during which I was homeschooled by my orthodox-to-a-fault parents.

I know quite well what the Church teaches in many respects. It’s not a comprehensive or perfect knowledge by any means, but it’s better than most Catholics have. And while I disagree with Church teaching on some issues, that isn’t why I fell away. I was more than willing to shut up and obey. I left because I just don’t get this ‘faith’ thing: much like the apostle Thomas, I can’t believe in something I can’t see and touch (metaphorically speaking). There’s something in the mind you guys have that I don’t. And honestly I’m not sure who’s better off.
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Monsg. Chiodo always says, the longest journey in the world is the 12 inches between your head and your heart. If the heart is headed in the right direction then the head should follow with a little help from the brain.
 
bengal_fan said:
i haven’t read all of the responses in this thread but as the question seems to be asking for individual experiences, i don’t think it’s necessary to read them all before sharing my own.

i went to elementary school and CCD. was baptized, received first communion, and was confirmed in the catholic church. that is where my education (for a time) stopped when it came to doctrine and “what the church actually teaches”. i had a conversion experience during high school and began to live my faith more and more. i attended mass every Sunday, but it seemed so dry to me (please don’t take offense, this is my personal experience) while the protestant church i went to felt so alive. the people actually liked each other. i had great experiences with the priests and nuns at the parish i grew up in but i was so bored by mass while the protestant service was engaging. i went to mass every Sunday until i moved out of my parent’s house (that was the deal with my mom). i began to study theology more and more. i started doing student ministry. i had nothing against the catholic church (in fact, to this day i believe in transubstantiation, how this is done i might disagree with the catholic church on, but i believe Jesus is truly present in communion body, soul, divinity) but i had (and still do) the understanding that if we claim Christ as Lord according to the ancient Creeds, then we are a part of His Body (the Church). i began to do student ministry full time. i moved from the area i grew up in to a new area to head up a ministry. this ministry was inter-denominational (meaning we had supporters from many different denomination, including catholics) and i liked the feel of that. there were some supporters here who had some sort of relationship to Scott Hahn (who i had never heard of) and told me some of his story. there were some similarities between him and me so i bought Rome Sweet Home and read it. i was shocked. i had attended Scott’s wife’s father’s (catch all that?) church in college. we knew many of the same people, why was he so convinced that the catholic church was the one true church? i wrote him a letter and asked if i could speak with him. he graciously allowed me to come to his home (i was 1 1/2 hours away so not a bad drive) and pick his brain for an afternoon. i walked away from that conversation with an interest in finding the truth. he gave me a ton of books and tapes and i poured over them as well as lots of other books. it has been close to 2 years that i have been reading catholic doctrine and history. i feel i understand what the church actually teaches on many, many subjects. all that to say, i still am not completely on board with the claim that they are the one true church. i have great respect for the position of the pope (as well as the man, Benedict is an amazing thinker as was JPII) but i see all Christian churches as being part of the same body. i am still reading and searching, but as of now, i don’t see myself “swimming the Tiber” anytime soon. not because i am against the church by any means (read any of my posts and hopefully you’ll see a deep appreciation for that wing of Christianity), i am just not convinced by all the claims of the catholic church and i don’t agree with Scott’s assessment that if the catholic church isn’t what she claims to be, then she is of the devil. my mind isn’t that black and white.
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You should watch “Journey Home” on Monday nights at 7 pm Central time, on the Catholic cable network EWTN. It is very interesting and helps to understand the journey folks have. You are in my prayers.
 
DrewC said:
The one and only reason I left is because I want to get into a ministry career and get married and I cant do that in the Catholic Church. I still agree with all of the teachings of the Church and will always hold them near and dear to my heart but I feel called into another direction.
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So you want a foot in each camp, huh, not possible, Jesus said , Take up your Cross and Follow ME. There are many ways to serve Christ in the Catholic church, I taught CCD from pre-school to adult classes for nearly 20 years, was a Den Mother for about 6 years, and belonged to several organizations like Catholics United for the Faith, Blue Army, Legion of Mary, and raised a family of 7 and buried 2 sons and 2 husbands. Put my kids thru Catholic schools and am now helping my son raise 2 boys. Believe me there is plenty you can do for the Lord without leaving the Catholic Church. I am neither bragging or complaining, but I thank God every day for my Catholic Faith .I am in my senior years now and looking forward to, tho not in a hurry, for my final journey HOME. Life has been an adventure, a challenge and many joys and Blessings. It is NOT the Lord that is leading you away from HIS Church.
 
JCChick said:
I cant believe I just read that! Its the same for me! I was born and raised Catholic and have three children in Catholic school–my parents decided last year to join a Baptist Church…I am so disheartened by it…especially when my mom tries to tell me everything that is WRONG with the church–like that we arent allowed to read our Bibles, etc! Aargh!
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40 years ago I had a cousin that left the Catholic Church and joined a Baptist Church that was very anti-catholic at that time. and she tried everything to talk me into joining her church which I didn’t, (and I am glad for that,) 10 years later when she was dying of Cancer the one thing she wanted before death was to see a Catholic priest and she was reunited to her Catholic faith.She died a very peaceful death, but her pastor was furious because her husband let a priest in the room.He only came to see her ever so often but the priest was there every day with Holy Communion for her.
 
BrewMax said:
then can you explain why it is acceptible for well known Catholic apologists and such to discuss these levels of Purgatory and such indepthly on public radio waves if they are in fact not teachings of the Catholic church
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🤷

But just as there were theologians who discussed in depth, whether or not one angel can dance on the head of the pin, and if one can, how many can, there are those who will discuss at length many subjects.

Respectfully, since I did not hear this broadcast, I cannot speculate as to whether or not they were in error to present their theories as official Catholic teachings, or you misheard.

God Bless,
Maria
 
Couple of things. First of all, you say you own a CCC. That stands for the Catechism of the Catholic Church, or CC, not RCC.
macleod said:
As far as not having canonized Sinners. Couldnt disagree more. we are ALL sinners (btw, we are all saints, the RCC does nothing for that). The RCC canonized folks that were already saved by JC’s once for all sacrifice and it had no impact on anything the other side of heaven.
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While you have posted many other things, more significant things, this one stands out to me, for something like this was told to me when I informed my Evangelical friends of my decision to attend the Catholic Church.

It seems as if you believe that the Catholic Church does not teach that we are all saints? OR was I reading that wrong? Did you mean that the Catholic Church does little for helping us live saintly lives? Something else?

Either way, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church that tells us we are all saints. That is why we profess the “communion of saints”.

Paragraph 5. The Communion of Saints

946 After confessing “the holy catholic Church,” the Apostles’ Creed adds “the communion of saints.” In a certain sense this article is a further explanation of the preceding: "What is the Church if not the assembly of all the saints?"479 The communion of saints is the Church.
947 "Since all the faithful form one body, the good of each is communicated to the others. . . . We must therefore believe that there exists a communion of goods in the Church. But the most important member is Christ, since he is the head. . . . Therefore, the riches of Christ are communicated to all the members, through the sacraments."480 "As this Church is governed by one and the same Spirit, all the goods she has received necessarily become a common fund.“481
948 The term “communion of saints” therefore has two closely linked meanings: communion in holy things (sancta)” and “among holy persons (sancti).”
Sancta sanctis! (“God’s holy gifts for God’s holy people”) is proclaimed by the celebrant in most Eastern liturgies during the elevation of the holy Gifts before the distribution of communion. The faithful (sancti) are fed by Christ’s holy body and blood (sancta) to grow in the communion of the Holy Spirit (koinonia) and to communicate it to the world.
 
macleod said:
Well, as I think I have demonstrated, people will speak as an authority for the Roman church, however, I have found seemingly contradictory statements. I have heard “no one outside the church (church meaning Roman Catholic) will be saved” as the official position and then heard “it only means people that are in full communion with the RCC” to “God only knows”. Surely, there is an officially document that says what the church’s official position is.
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Yes, there is an official document. As you say you own a Catechism I am surprised you even need to ask since it is quite clearly talked about in the Catechism. Maybe you should spend some time reading it as time allows.

Here is the affirmation, restated positively.

**“Outside the Church there is no salvation” **
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

The Church also clearly teaches in the Catechism that one can be a Christian without belonging to the Catholic Church. Again from the Catechism.

**Wounds to unity **
817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and **with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272 **819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. **All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276 **
 
macleod said:
Here’s another example “Faithful Catholic Christians if they are obedient to God’s commandment and obey it with love, they will gain heaven. Why? They are living their faith.”

This means that NO one is going because we all fall short…that is why we need a savior. Surely the official RCC position will state that Jesus Christ is how we will get to heaven, not by obeying God’s commandments. He paid for our sins. We did NOTHING. we DESERVE eternal separation.
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How do you read that:confused:

Yes, Christ paid for our sins. Nothing we “do” can earn us heaven.

But just as James says, faith without works is dead. And a dead faith will certainly not get one to heaven. The “works” are nothing we can brag on, for they are only possible through the Grace of God.

Anyone “living their faith” will exhibit “works” or “fruit”. None of this denies Christ’s sacrifice or says that we can get to heaven apart from the Grace of God and Christ’s sacrifice.
macleod said:
So, the official RCC teaching is that the act of getting baptised is what saves you from eternal separation? I always thought that it was Jesus Christ who saved us? What part then did Jesus play in the plan?
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Again, maybe you should pick up and read that Catechism you say you own.

The official teaching of the Catholic Church (CC)

1225 In his Passover Christ opened to all men the fountain of Baptism. He had already spoken of his Passion, which he was about to suffer in Jerusalem, as a “Baptism” with which he had to be baptized.22 The blood and water that flowed from the pierced side of the crucified Jesus are types of Baptism and the Eucharist, the sacraments of new life.23 From then on, it is possible "to be born of water and the Spirit"24 in order to enter the Kingdom of God.
See where you are baptized, see where Baptism comes from, if not from the cross of Christ, from his death. There is the whole mystery: he died for you. In him you are redeemed, in him you are saved.25
25 St. Ambrose, De sacr. 2,2,6:PL 16,444; cf. Jn 3:5.
:bible1: John 35] Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
macleod said:
Are you saying that the official RCC teaching is that the Catholic church is what does the saving?
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Nope. Now maybe the Official CC teaching says that the Church saves because according the the official teachings of the Catholic Church, Christ is the Church, His body. So Christ does the saving. Isn’t that what you believe? That Christ saves?

789 The comparison of the Church with the body casts light on the intimate bond between Christ and his Church. Not only is she gathered around him; she is united in him, in his body. Three aspects of the Church as the Body of Christ are to be more specifically noted: the unity of all her members with each other as a result of their union with Christ; Christ as head of the Body; and the Church as bride of Christ.

God Bless,
Maria
 
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