As an ex-Catholic do you really know what the Church teaches?

[BrewMax]

Please provide an example where the Church’s teachings are not scriptural.

The Assumption of Mary into Heaven body and spirit.

The perpetual virginity of Mary.

The idea of a multi-level Purgatory where one must be purified from sin beyond the sacrifice Chrsit made.

The idea of people being prayed up the levels of Purgatory eventually into Heaven.

Indulgences and dispensations.

The idea that mary has anything whatsoever to do with our salvation.

 

[BrewMax]

Based on who’s interpreation of Scripture?

What does it matter if the Holy Spirit is discerning it?

 

[peary]

The God of the Old Testament and the New Testament are the same, to seperate them is a heresy. You can’t get around the OT as a Christian, and I couldn’t accept human sacrifice, genocide, favoritism towards certain races, adultery condoned amongst those God “liked”, smashing babies against rocks etc… Some can block it out or rationalize it, I can’t, so my faith went away.

There is no rationality in your statement. Jesus said that He did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it. The binding force of the Law is LOVE.

The fact of the matter is, from what you are saying here, is that you have NO DESIRE to embrace the Faith, and that is your decision. But please don’t make it sound as if your intelligence prevents you from a proper understanding.

 

[estesbob]

What does it matter if the Holy Spirit is discerning it?

Discerning it for whom?

 

[Keikiolu]

Did it ever occur to you that we are New Testament Christians, not Old Testament Christians?

Did you actually SAY that…!!?

Holy Cra…!, oop, right,… shouldn’t say that should I? No. Most definately not.

It’s an “event” indeed to see such a “catastrophic credibility blowout”,… right there on the road in front (and safely to one side) of you…!

Oh man…! I do hope you’ve got some HEFTY insurance on that buggy…!

Woof! That’s GOTTA hurt…

 

[peary]

Did you actually SAY that…!!?

Holy Cra…!, oop, right,… shouldn’t say that should I? No. Most definately not.

It’s an “event” indeed to see such a “catastrophic credibility blowout”,… right there on the road in front (and safely to one side) of you…!

Oh man…! I do hope you’ve got some HEFTY insurance on that buggy…!

Woof! That’s GOTTA hurt…

Yeah, I said it, and you need to learn how to connect words together LOL

 

[St_Violet]

What does it matter if the Holy Spirit is discerning it?

how can you truely know the Holy Spirit is helping you discern the scriptures?

 

[Keikiolu]

Yeah, I said it, and you need to learn how to connect words together LOL

You said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by peary forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
Did it ever occur to you that we are New Testament Christians, not Old Testament Christians?

So,… do you actually believe that their ARE Old Testament Christians (whatever that means)…?

What on earth do “OTC’s” look like…?

What ARE you blithering about?

Are you one of those, “I believe only in the Gospel of Matthew and half of Acts!” type “Christians”…?

You’re at about a 1.6-of-10 on my trusty “scale-o-cred” at this point, and falling like a trout sinker.

I’ll have to read up on your writings in here, and see if your performance is a fluke or a trend.

Best to 'ya…!! Keep on keeping me incredulous. It’s FUN, but unfortunately only too common around here…!!

 

[lak611]

Did it ever occur to you that we are New Testament Christians, not Old Testament Christians?

How can there be Christians in the Old Testament? Jesus did not come yet to establish His Church.

 

[Delraek]

I took a couple of Bible classes last year that are from The Great Adventure Bible series taught by Jeff Cavins (it’s on dvd) and they really helped my understanding with the OT and how it all points to Jesus! It’s totally amazing how the Old and New Testaments complement each other. Unlike, “lukewarm”, it strengthened my faith mainly because there’s no way man alone could have put it all together like that! Like St. Augustine said, “the New is concealed in the Old Testament, the Old is revealed in the New”.

 

[Delraek]

The Assumption of Mary into Heaven body and spirit.

The perpetual virginity of Mary.

The idea of a multi-level Purgatory where one must be purified from sin beyond the sacrifice Chrsit made.

The idea of people being prayed up the levels of Purgatory eventually into Heaven.

Indulgences and dispensations.

The idea that mary has anything whatsoever to do with our salvation.

Hi BrewMax,
I don’t know if you’re at all interested, but Dr. Scott Hahn was in the same mindset you are currently in when it comes to the Church’s teaching on Mary, and he did a LOT of study on the subject. He has written some books that might help to shed some light on the subject. Even if you don’t agree, you might still find them interesting?

On a side note, none of the items you listed are contrary to Scripture. They are just not found “explicitly” - there is a difference. (And the idea that purgatory has “levels” is new to me.)

God bless

 

[peary]

How can there be Christians in the Old Testament? Jesus did not come yet to establish His Church.

What I meant to type was that there are Christians who, for the most part, ignore the New Testament and focus primarily on what the Old Testament teaches eye for an eye, immediate consequences, etc., rather than love, mercy and charity has taught by Jesus.

 

[lukewarm]

There is no rationality in your statement. Jesus said that He did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it. The binding force of the Law is LOVE.

The fact of the matter is, from what you are saying here, is that you have NO DESIRE to embrace the Faith, and that is your decision. But please don’t make it sound as if your intelligence prevents you from a proper understanding.

What I said is completely rational, I can’t divorce myself from the moral inconsitencies and insanity of the God of the Old Testament. I began reading the Bible to gain a deeper understanding of my faith, and it ended up destroying my faith. It happens. Many people who read the Old Testament can’t reconcile it with their faith, I’m definitely not the only one. I think most people who read the Old Testament have to end up blocking out most of it.

So when Japheth sacrifices his daughter as a burnt offering before the God of Israel and he accepts the sacrifice how is that reconciled in your mind? When the Kings of Israel behave in the most horrid ways and still maintain God’s favor how do you reconcile that? There is zero moral consistency in the Bible. Even in the New Testament Jesus path to salvation is impossible, it’s been mapped out here before so I won’t write it again. But if you go by Jesus own words in the NT salvation is completely impossible for man to attain.

 

[MarcoPolo]

The Assumption of Mary into Heaven body and spirit.

The perpetual virginity of Mary.

The idea of a multi-level Purgatory where one must be purified from sin beyond the sacrifice Chrsit made.

The idea of people being prayed up the levels of Purgatory eventually into Heaven.

Indulgences and dispensations.

The idea that mary has anything whatsoever to do with our salvation.

You’ve been on here almost 2 months and you still think all these cannot be attested in Scripture?

 

[Delraek]

What I said is completely rational, I can’t divorce myself from the moral inconsitencies and insanity of the God of the Old Testament. I began reading the Bible to gain a deeper understanding of my faith, and it ended up destroying my faith. It happens. Many people who read the Old Testament can’t reconcile it with their faith, I’m definitely not the only one. I think most people who read the Old Testament have to end up blocking out most of it.

So when Japheth sacrifices his daughter as a burnt offering before the God of Israel and he accepts the sacrifice how is that reconciled in your mind? When the Kings of Israel behave in the most horrid ways and still maintain God’s favor how do you reconcile that? There is zero moral consistency in the Bible. Even in the New Testament Jesus path to salvation is impossible, it’s been mapped out here before so I won’t write it again. But if you go by Jesus own words in the NT salvation is completely impossible for man to attain.

The Old Testament is a very difficult “read”. When I took a Bible study class last year, I did have a hard time with some of it. What helped me is knowing that we as human beings do not have the capacity to understand how God “thinks”. I know that the people in the OT didn’t have the graces we have today because of Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross and resurrection, which opened up the gates of heaven to us. Because of Jesus’ sacrifice, we can get to heaven:

*Mt 19 25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
26Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” *

By the way, where does the OT say that Japheth sacrificed his daughter? My brain is drawing a blank on that one.

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by lak611 forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
How can there be Christians in the Old Testament? Jesus did not come yet to establish His Church.

What I meant to type was that there are Christians who, for the most part, ignore the New Testament and focus primarily on what the Old Testament teaches eye for an eye, immediate consequences, etc., rather than love, mercy and charity has taught by Jesus.

Thanks for clarifying that.

Charity IS love, by the way. Mercy is also a function of love.

The virtues are faith, hope and charity.

Still,… I’d LOVE to hear more about how a Christian can not be focused on the new testament and still call themselves Christians…?

What was your point in pointing out that “some Christians” seem more OT focused than NT focused? I’ve lost track of the essence of what you were trying to say.

Thanks for your insight.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by peary forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
*There is no rationality in your statement. Jesus said that He did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it. The binding force of the Law is LOVE.

The fact of the matter is, from what you are saying here, is that you have NO DESIRE to embrace the Faith, and that is your decision. But please don’t make it sound as if your intelligence prevents you from a proper understanding.*

What I said is completely rational, I can’t divorce myself from the moral inconsitencies and insanity of the God of the Old Testament. I began reading the Bible to gain a deeper understanding of my faith, and it ended up destroying my faith. It happens.

The reason for that, of course, is that you were reading it outside the necessary “framework” within which we are commanded to read it.

Namely, from within the guidance of the Magisterium, and with the approved (of at least not disapproved) commentary of respectable Catholic commentators.

It’s no surprise that you were lead astray by your own “demons”.

Many people who read the Old Testament can’t reconcile it with their faith, I’m definitely not the only one. I think most people who read the Old Testament have to end up blocking out most of it.

And that is one of the major forces which drives people INTO the Church. When you are TOLD, by the very fact OF Christianity as Christianity, that Christianity was an extension of the Elder Covenants (the OT), you MUST accept (somehow) that the OT is a good thing. If you don’t have the resources to come to that conclusion, then you have two choices:

1. Call the OT “bad” and try to live Christianity with no real basis to do so. Without the basis of the OT, there is no real understanding of the NT, and unsubstantiated “Christianity” is the tool of the “you know who”.
2. Conclude that ALL Christianity is bogus, because it is based on what is not “good”.

So when Japheth sacrifices his daughter as a burnt offering before the God of Israel and he accepts the sacrifice how is that reconciled in your mind?

It is a statement of the sacredness of vows. Vows are of such importance that they must ALWAYS be kept, or not made in the first place, and the death of the innocent in this case is “on the head” of the sacrificer.

The sacrifice is accepted, because it was made,… but the consequences of this atrocity are between the sacrificer and God. And I would dare say that the consequences were probably very harsh indeed.

When the Kings of Israel behave in the most horrid ways and still maintain God’s favor how do you reconcile that?

You may want to find out what “covenant” means.

There is zero moral consistency in the Bible. Even in the New Testament Jesus path to salvation is impossible, it’s been mapped out here before so I won’t write it again. But if you go by Jesus own words in the NT salvation is completely impossible for man to attain.

Your lack of faith is due to bad information. It’s nt surprising that you got bad information from yourself,… from not taking instruction from those worthy of learning from and instead took yourself as your “best instructor”.

All you need to do is to get better education from better educators.

Best to you in doing that. If yu choose not to do that, then you may have to deal with your demons the hard way.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Rocky]

So when Japheth sacrifices his daughter as a burnt offering before the God of Israel and he accepts the sacrifice how is that reconciled in your mind? When the Kings of Israel behave in the most horrid ways and still maintain God’s favor how do you reconcile that? There is zero moral consistency in the Bible. Even in the New Testament Jesus path to salvation is impossible, it’s been mapped out here before so I won’t write it again. But if you go by Jesus own words in the NT salvation is completely impossible for man to attain.

Lukewarm, you have brought up Japheth’s sacrifice of his daughter on other threads as well. Here you say that God accepted that sacrifice. Which verse in the Book of Judges says that God accepted the sacrifice? I cannot find it.

 

[Keikiolu]

Lukewarm, you have brought up Japheth’s sacrifice of his daughter on other threads as well. Here you say that God accepted that sacrifice. Which verse in the Book of Judges says that God accepted the sacrifice? I cannot find it.

A good way to see an atheist who’s disguised himself is to familiarize with the “bible atrocites” examples that they use.

“Examples”

…not that I’ve bothered to rebutt each of these “examples”, but it’s good to become familiar with the mindset of the militant atheist.

 

[danonwaveland]

It is a statement of the sacredness of vows. Vows are of such importance that they must ALWAYS be kept, or not made in the first place, and the death of the innocent in this case is “on the head” of the sacrificer.

The sacrifice is accepted, because it was made,… but the consequences of this atrocity are between the sacrificer and God. And I would dare say that the consequences were probably very harsh indeed.

FWIW, I found the following on a Christian website, and it seems to make some sense, given that the daughter did not mourn her impending death, but the end of her hopes of marriage (I’d be interested in others’ thoughts on this):

"A judge of Israel, Jephthah, had made a foolish vow to the Lord that if God gave him victory in battle, he would sacrifice whatever first came out of his door when he came home (Judges 11:30-31). Jephthah’s daughter was the first thing to come of out his door when he came home (Judges 11:34). The Bible never specifically tells us whether Jephthah actually sacrificed his daughter as a burnt offering. Judges 11:39 seems to indicate that he did, “he did to her as he had vowed.” However, the fact that his daughter was mourning the fact that she would never marry, instead of mourning that she was about to die (Judges 11:37-37) – possibly indicates that Jephthah gave her to the tabernacle as a servant instead of sacrificing her. Whatever the case, God had specifically forbidden offering human sacrifices – so God never would have wanted Jephthah to sacrifice his daughter (Leviticus 20:1-5). Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5, and 32:35 clearly indicate that the idea of human sacrifice has ‘never even entered God’s mind.’ "