As Gitmo Hunger Strike Continues, Lawyers Step Up Fight for Access

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SamCA:
Here’s the fundamental difference, though. Germany and Japan were nations. They had infrastructures that you could attack, governments that you could deal with. You could actually point to a tangible series of actions that could be taken to render Germany and Japan incapable of attacking us.

Terrorists are criminals operating at an individual or cell-based level. You can’t attack their infrastructure. Killing their leaders doesn’t stop attacks – in fact, it encourages more. Having a war on terror is like having a war on crime. It sounds good until you actually try to do it, and then you realize you’re approaching it wrong. No matter how many criminals you kill, you can’t stop crime. In order to decrease crime, you need to take a step back and find a way to prevent people from becoming criminals (or, since that’s impossible, prevent as many people as possible from becoming criminals) which requires first understanding why they become criminals and acting to alleviate those conditions.

We have killed a whole lot of insurgents in Iraq. In that time, the insurgency has grown. Really stop and think about that for a second. It’s as if we’re fighting a hydra. Every time we kill an insurgent, two more take his place, and the reason for that is that the means we’re using to kill them are themselves creating conditions conducive to turning people into terrorists.

You can’t fight terrorism like MacArthur. You have to fight it like Eliot Ness.

And you certainly can’t do it by treating your enemies like they’re subhuman. That will only increase the number of people who make themselves your enemies.

Put more simply: If we keep fighting the war on terror the way we have been, we simply garauntee that terrorists will continue to attack us. This has led certain paranoid types (and I’d be lying if I said I couldn’t be a bit of a paranoiac myself at times) to wonder if this isn’t exactly what our leaders want. It’s a whole lot easier to keep your people under control in wartime than in peace. And unlike every other war we’ve ever fought, the War on Terror in its current form all but garauntees a state of perpetual war.

Now, maybe it’s accidental that our leadership has brought us into an Orwellian forever war. Certainly, stranger things have happened. But that doesn’t mean we should go along with it.
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Thank you for taking the time to spell out, in an easily understandable way, the problems with our current tactics.
 
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koda:
Thank you for taking the time to spell out, in an easily understandable way, the problems with our current tactics.
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You don’t understand the meaning of “tactics,” do you?
 
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SamCA:
Here’s the fundamental difference, though. Germany and Japan were nations. They had infrastructures that you could attack, governments that you could deal with. You could actually point to a tangible series of actions that could be taken to render Germany and Japan incapable of attacking us.

…
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Exactly, and thanks for saving me typing all that out 🙂

I would love to know how we can possibly evaluate ‘the terrorists have stopped attacking us, time to declare we have won the War on Terror.’ No-one will an ounce of sense will ever say that, as the result would be a massive amount of terrorism in the immediate time thereafter, to make the US look stupid.

Mike
 
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MikeWM:
Exactly, and thanks for saving me typing all that out 🙂

I would love to know how we can possibly evaluate ‘the terrorists have stopped attacking us, time to declare we have won the War on Terror.’ No-one will an ounce of sense will ever say that, as the result would be a massive amount of terrorism in the immediate time thereafter, to make the US look stupid.

Mike
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Well, for starters, if there is “a massive amount of terrorism” then they haven’t stopped attacking us, now have they?http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
 
vern humphrey:
Does it include "Releasing men who were captured arms in hand, attempting to kill Americans, who are sworn enemies of the United States, and who have vowed to continue killing Americans if they are released?"http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
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That’s the problem - they weren’t all captured that way. Some were turned in to U.S. troops by unknown third parties for a bounty. We need to have some probably cause here.
 
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MikeWM:
You seem to have missed the difference between ‘is’ and ‘would be’.
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You seem to have missed the difference between imagination and reality. You say all sorts of things will happen – but that doesn’t mean they will be.
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MikeWM:
So, how’s about a nice list of criteria that would lead to a credible announcement that the War on Terror is over and it is time to get back to normal?

Mike
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When they stop attacking us, the war will be over.
 
vern humphrey:
You seem to have missed the difference between imagination and reality. You say all sorts of things will happen – but that doesn’t mean they will be.
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We shall never know - because I betcha Bush will never say ‘the war on terror is over.’ It will just slowly be put aside and/or a change of administration will occur.
When they stop attacking us, the war will be over.
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How do we know when ‘they’ stop attacking us? Attacking us where? How much of a period needs to pass from the last terrorist incident before it is ‘over’? How can you be sure you’ve got every last terrorist? When do you forsee our celebrating ‘Victory over Terrorism’ day?

Mike
 
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MikeWM:
We shall never know - because I betcha Bush will never say ‘the war on terror is over.’ It will just slowly be put aside and/or a change of administration will occur.
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So?
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MikeWM:
How do we know when ‘they’ stop attacking us?
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It will get very quiet.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
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MikeWM:
Attacking us where?
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Everywhere, of course.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
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MikeWM:
How much of a period needs to pass from the last terrorist incident before it is ‘over’? How can you be sure you’ve got every last terrorist? When do you forsee our celebrating ‘Victory over Terrorism’ day?

Mike
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Who cares?
 
vern humphrey:
So?
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Strangely enough, I like ‘wars’ with definable objectives and exit criteria.
It will get very quiet.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
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Wasn’t it rather ‘quiet’ after the 1993 WTC bombing, for example? On mainland USA, hasn’t it been rather ‘quiet’ for over 4 years now? How long does it have to be ‘quiet’ for?
Everywhere, of course.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
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Quite an achievement. Wiping out all terrorists everywhere. Short of wiping out the entire human race, you’re not going to succeed though.
Who cares?
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The people in Guantanamo waiting for justice? The general populace waiting for ‘normality’ to return?

Mike
 
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MikeWM:
Strangely enough, I like ‘wars’ with definable objectives and exit criteria.
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I like chocolate ice cream, too – but that doesn’t mean I get it for every meal. Or even that it’s good for me.

In this world, we must conform to reality, not warp reality to meet our likes and dislikes.
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MikeWM:
Wasn’t it rather ‘quiet’ after the 1993 WTC bombing, for example? On mainland USA, hasn’t it been rather ‘quiet’ for over 4 years now? How long does it have to be ‘quiet’ for?
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Except that it isn’t quiet around the world – there have been many attacks recently.
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MikeWM:
Quite an achievement. Wiping out all terrorists everywhere. Short of wiping out the entire human race, you’re not going to succeed though.
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So every human being is going to become a terrorist? Even you and me?
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MikeWM:
The people in Guantanamo waiting for justice? The general populace waiting for ‘normality’ to return?

Mike
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The people who were captured arms in hand, attempting to kill Americans and who are committed to a life of terrorism don’t want justice – they want mercy. Justice would be very harsh on these people.

As for the general populace, I think they’d rather be safe and alive, even if it takes years and years to be sure terrorism is dead.
 
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MikeWM:
Strangely enough, I like ‘wars’ with definable objectives and exit criteria.

Mike
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What were the exit criteria for World War II? Seems to me that World War II was kind of a “victory or death” sort of war.
 
Al Masetti:
What were the exit criteria for World War II? Seems to me that World War II was kind of a “victory or death” sort of war.
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Err… Germany, Italy and Japan were defeated? Either when they unconditionally surrendered (Japan) or were completely defeated (Germany, pretty much).

It was very obvious when WW2 was ‘won’, and indeed we had specific days (VE, VJ) to celebrate it.

Mike
 
vern humphrey:
Except that it isn’t quiet around the world – there have been many attacks recently.
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Indeed, I didn’t say otherwise. But even when it is quiet, it doesn’t mean it will stay that way. As Paul said this weekend
While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
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The people who were captured arms in hand, attempting to kill Americans and who are committed to a life of terrorism don’t want justice – they want mercy. Justice would be very harsh on these people.
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You can’t give them justice or mercy while they are in limbo.
As for the general populace, I think they’d rather be safe and alive, even if it takes years and years to be sure terrorism is dead.
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I continue to be fascinated as to how you are to judge terrorism is somehow ‘over’. As was said elsewhere, that is like declaring an end to murder, rape, or any other crime. It is simply impossible.

Mike
 
I just read yesterday where the Bush administration has been very clear in condeming torture. That they do not condone it, will not engage in it and that anyone in the U.S. government found to be involved in it will be held accountable.

newsfromrussia.com/world/2005/11/14/67620.htm

During a joint press conference with Australia’s Attorney General Philip Ruddock, Gonzales refused to comment specifically on the McCain provision but said the Bush Administration had been “very clear” in condemning torture.

“We do not condone torture, we will not engage in torture. Anyone in the U.S. government found to be involved in torture is going to be held accountable,” he told reporters in Sydney.

On that site, (link provided above), it is the 10th story down, titled:
“Bush against torture.”
 
Originally Posted by Al Masetti
What were the exit criteria for World War II? Seems to me that World War II was kind of a “victory or death” sort of war.

Err… Germany, Italy and Japan were defeated? Either when they unconditionally surrendered (Japan) or were completely defeated (Germany, pretty much).

It was very obvious when WW2 was ‘won’, and indeed we had specific days (VE, VJ) to celebrate it.

Mike
I shaded the whole post and may have not gotten all the punctuation and codes.

Actually, not sure, but I think the expression “exit strategy” didn’t actually exist for WWII. It was an all-out fight to the finish.

And up until the middle of 1943, the war could have gone either way. Even later on, if the Allies had made one more mistake or if the Axis had made one fewer mistake, the Germans / Japanese / Italians would have won. Examples abound. But that’s for another thread.

With respect to the detainees at Gitmo, it is useful for them to be questioned by representatives from their home countries. That can make it easier to trap them when they lie. And make it easier to roll up terrorist cells in their home countries. So, those folks will be there for quite some time, either for interrogation or just to keep them from fighting again.

The United States has a reputation for allowing itself to be pushed around until something snaps and then the U.S. gets nasty. 9/11 was the snapping point. The fighters we picked up in Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere who are being detained knew what they were doing when they volunteered for this kind of war. And they are now experiencing the consequences of participating in a war as neither a “civil criminal” nor as a “legitimate military combatant”.

They are more akin to being pirates.
 
Al Masetti:
Actually, not sure, but I don’t thing the expression “exit strategy” actually existed for WWII. It was an all-out fight to the finish.

And up until the middle of 1943, the war could have gone either way. Even later on, if the Allies had made one more mistake or if the Axis had made one fewer mistake, the Germans / Japanese / Italians would have won.
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Possibly so - but what was meant by ‘winning’ was clear, in either direction.
The United States has a reputation for allowing itself to be pushed around until something snaps and then the U.S. gets nasty.
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Well, you’re the one saying ‘nasty’, but I won’t disagree.
9/11 was the snapping point. The fighters we picked up in Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere who are being detained knew what they were doing when they volunteered for this kind of war.
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Except that it appears not all of them did ‘volunteer’. The Brits released from Gitmo, for example, hadn’t really ‘volunteered’ for anything. It seems some, at least, were victims of mistaken identity.
They are more akin to being pirates.
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Of course, piracy is covered and dealt with by international law.

Mike
 
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