As Gitmo Hunger Strike Continues, Lawyers Step Up Fight for Access

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When did we let the Iraqi POW’s go after GW1? Answer, it was after the war was over.

When did we let the POW’s from Germany or Japan go in WW2? When the war was over.

When should we let the detainees in Gitmo go?

**When the war on terror is over.
**
 
So you support those who behead civilians in front of the TV cameras? You think it’s “fair” for them to kill civilians as a matter of policy?

No and are they being held in GITMO? I said innocent casualties are a by-product of war for both sides. That’s the nature of war. You’re accusations are based entirely on the presumption that the GITMO detainees are guilty of terrorism, but that has yet to be proven and is what the thread was about - the fact that these people have not had any representation or trial to determine if they should even be there.
 
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MikeWM:
Firstly, there is nothing wrong with criticizing, as long as it is justified criticism. I am supportive of things I agree with, and critical of those things I am not.

Secondly, as I have already said in this thread, it can be better to do nothing at all than do something for the sake of doing something and making things worse.

On the ground, we have to have proper intelligence. We evidently don’t right now, as the WMD foolishness showed. We have to try to infiltrate these groups. We have to know who they are. We have to work behind the scenes. When was the last time terorrists were defeated by a massive military campaign against them? You create more terrorists than you destroy that way. Instead you work quietly, slowly cutting off their support, their funding, their lifelines.

You may have setbacks in the meantime. Attacks may happen, and that is deeply regrettable, but may well be the case. Terrorism has always been with us to some degree, and probalby already will. A knee-jerk response of new legislation, or more police powers, or declaring war against a country involved at most only peripherally, again fuels the problem rather than put it out. Do we pass more legislation every time a murder is committed? No. We learn lessons hopefully, but we don’t invent rafts of new laws.

You also have to work to not give the perception of injustice, and frankly the flame of injustice burns very brightly in this world right now. When people are bombed from 30,000ft by vastly superior technology, they feel injustice. When people look at the way the Palestinians are treated, they feel injustice. When people look at the way we trade, offering some countries special status and calling others pariahs, based on narrow economic or political aims, they feel injustice. When they feel America and other western countries can do what they like but they are tied to having to toe the line, they feel injustice. When they see thousands of children dying every say from avoidable poverty in Africa because of unfair trade rules, they feel injustice. When they see camps like Gitmo set up, that the US would decry if it were anywhere else in the world, they feel injustice.

Injustice, wrongly, leads in some to violence, and in others to vulnerability to indoctrination. The more badly-treated a person feels, the more likely they are to lash out, or turn to those who they feel have the ability to help them lash out. And they lash out at those they feel perpetrate the injustice.

There is of course a problem with extremist Islam as well, and that is less easily dealt with - but you will find their support withers on the vine if the other matters are dealt with. You are left with a small core of people who would like to do things, but have no power or influence left to do anything.

Basically, there is no easy answer. The problem is that people understandably want an easy answer to stop the ‘terror’, and want to feel comfortable with soundbites like ‘war on terror’. But, like many things in life, it isn’t an issue that can be solved easily or just by throwing enough firepower or men at it. We need patience, we need intelligence, and we need to work towards justice. Then we might make progress.

Mike
Gee, so I guess in summary Mike’s strategy is to do nothing. Just take the hits and keep taking them.

Did I get that right?

Police, military, … just stay at the office and in the camp.

Will the American or British societies accept that approach?

Will the voters throw out their elected representatives if the government takes that approach?
 
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MikeWM:
How would that destroy it? You’ve clearly stated time and again that they don’t qualify for the Geneva Convention because they don’t identify themselves. Perhaps, if we are having a ‘war’ againist them, they should have the option to do so if they wish.
I realize you have no training or experience here, so I will extend you the courtesy of not thinking you’re deliberately playing the fool.

We destroy them by:
  1. Isolating them – culturally, politically, militarily, financially. They rely on the billion or so Muslims world-wide for support, we turn off that support. As I have pointed out before, far more Muslims have been killed fighting on our side than Americans and British.
  2. Decapitation – we seek to find and take out key leaders.
  3. Systemic attack – we attack the entire chain of events necessary to carry out terrorist attacks – from locating sleeper cells to disrupting the movement of personnel and equipment.
  4. Actual battle – we go into terrorist “safe havens” and force them to abandon those havens, or fight to retain them.
We enhance those four methods by doing disruptive things like imitative deception, as well as postive support-building measures, like building schools and hospitals.
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MikeWM:
Ah, yes, waging war on something or surrendering to it are the only two options ever available. After nearly 5 years of President Bush in charge, I should have realised that by now, eh?

Mike
I assume the above is French for “I have no clue what we should do.” http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif
 
Al Masetti:
Gee, so I guess in summary Mike’s strategy is to do nothing.
Not even I can write that many words to merely say ‘do nothing’ 🙂
Will the American or British societies accept that approach?
Will the voters throw out their elected representatives if the government takes that approach?
I can’t speak for the Americans, but we basically got on with our lives as normal during the 25 years of the IRA bombings while the various governments were working behind the scenes. It took time, but it seems to have borne fruit.

Mike
 
vern humphrey:
I realize you have no training or experience here, so I will extend you the courtesy of not thinking you’re deliberately playing the fool.
I can’t help but wonder how many terrorists you have personally battled yourself, though I also wonder why anyone bothers debating with you when you continually say ‘well, I’ve been there, done that, and you haven’t, so I know better.’ Have you been hired by the Bush administration yet? Most of them haven’t been there and done that, they could probably do with the help.
We destroy them by:
Not an unreasonable set of things to do, though there is a definite military hue to all of them. Not a complete picture.
I assume the above is French for “I have no clue what we should do.”
No, the above is perfectly good English that doesn’t say that at all. Try reading it again.

Mike
 
Rob's Wife:
Name one time where I have slimed US troops?! I’ve said that I don’t agree with the GITMO situation because people deserve a fair trial and to have proof of their crimes presented. I’ve said it may be questionable whether our officials are being completely honest. That’s is not a slam against our troops**.**
I apologize-the comment about rape and murder was not made by you-since it was in purple I assumed it was.
 
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estesbob:
I apologize-the comment about rape and murder was not made by you-since it was in purple I assumed it was.
**ahhh. Assumptions cause many problems. Apology gladly accepted.🙂 **
 
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MikeWM:
I can’t help but wonder how many terrorists you have personally battled yourself, though I also wonder why anyone bothers debating with you when you continually say ‘well, I’ve been there, done that, and you haven’t, so I know better.’ Have you been hired by the Bush administration yet? Most of them haven’t been there and done that, they could probably do with the help.
I have fought terrorists and guerillas in Viet Nam. I was an adviser to a South Viet Namese unit on my first tour, and an Infantry company commander on my second.

I have also worked at military-related jobs since retiring from the Army – including developing the Army’s Motorized Brigade training program and training commandos in Singapore.
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MikeWM:
Not an unreasonable set of things to do, though there is a definite military hue to all of them. Not a complete picture.
I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve asked you to do more than complain – what’s your alternative?
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MikeWM:
No, the above is perfectly good English that doesn’t say that at all. Try reading it again.

Mike
No matter how many times I read it, you still do nothing but complain. You have no alternatives to offer.

My comment stands.
 
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MikeWM:
I can’t speak for the Americans, but we basically got on with our lives as normal during the 25 years of the IRA bombings while the various governments were working behind the scenes. It took time, but it seems to have borne fruit.

Mike
Britain had no troops in Ireland? No on-going intelligence operations targeting the IRA? Not a single member of the IRA was arrested or killed by the security forces?

Pull the other one – it’s got bells on it!http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif
 
vern humphrey:
Britain had no troops in Ireland? No on-going intelligence operations targeting the IRA? Not a single member of the IRA was arrested or killed by the security forces?
Did I say that? Did I suggest that? What do you think ‘working behind the scenes’ means if not intelligence operations?

Just to form, as in at least half a dozen previous threads, you have completely misrepresented my position and moved to incredulous questioning of things I never said. The number of strawmen you construct is quite extraordinary.

Mike
 
vern humphrey:
I have fought terrorists and guerillas in Viet Nam. I was an adviser to a South Viet Namese unit on my first tour, and an Infantry company commander on my second.

.
Thank you for your service to our country!
 
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MikeWM:
Not even I can write that many words to merely say ‘do nothing’ 🙂

I can’t speak for the Americans, but we basically got on with our lives as normal during the 25 years of the IRA bombings while the various governments were working behind the scenes. It took time, but it seems to have borne fruit.

Mike
I guess that the difference-we are not willing to put up with 25 years of violence. At least the leadership we have now isnt! And thank God for that.
 
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MikeWM:
Did I say that? Did I suggest that? What do you think ‘working behind the scenes’ means if not intelligence operations?
In English, “Intelligence Operations” means Intelligence Operations.

“Working behind the scenes” normally means “exercising good offices” particularly when you indicate the people working behind the scenes are “the various governments.”
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MikeWM:
Just to form, as in at least half a dozen previous threads, you have completely misrepresented my position and moved to incredulous questioning of things I never said. The number of strawmen you construct is quite extraordinary.

Mike
You said:
I can’t speak for the Americans, but we basically got on with our lives as normal during the 25 years of the IRA bombings while the various governments were working behind the scenes. It took time, but it seems to have borne fruit.
You gave the impression that the military had little or no role in Northerrn Ireland – and I find it difficult to believe that was not deliberate.

Now, what is your alternative for the War on Terrorism?
 
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estesbob:
I guess that the difference-we are not willing to put up with 25 years of violence. At least the leadership we have now isnt! And thank God for that.
I’d be interested to know what you would have done better than the British government, that would have solved the problem more quickly.

Mike
 
vern humphrey:
In English, “Intelligence Operations” means Intelligence Operations.

“Working behind the scenes” normally means “exercising good offices” particularly when you indicate the people working behind the scenes are “the various governments.”
I think people in the UK who know the history of the Troubles would be happy with the term ‘working behind the scenes’ to describe the talks the governments of Thatcher and Major had with the IRA without acknowledging they were doing it. I wasn’t aware it had different connotations in the US.
You gave the impression that the military had little or no role in Northerrn Ireland – and I find it difficult to believe that was not deliberate.
It was not deliberate. The military certainly had a role - although often it caused more harm than good.

I said ‘we basically got on with our lives as normal’. On the mainland, we did. Most of us aren’t in the military, you know. There was a small risk we’d be in the wrong place at the wrong time and get blown up, but we just got on with it.
Now, what is your alternative for the War on Terrorism?
I gave some thoughts in post #117. If you expect me to give a simple answer, you’ll be disappointed. The answer to complicated questions is rarely simple.

Mike
 
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MikeWM:
I think people in the UK who know the history of the Troubles would be happy with the term ‘working behind the scenes’ to describe the talks the governments of Thatcher and Major had with the IRA without acknowledging they were doing it.
You call Operation Motorman “operating behind the scenes?”

You call Internment “operating behind the scenes?”
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MikeWM:
I wasn’t aware it had different connotations in the US.
The US and the UK use the same NATO-standard terminology
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MikeWM:
It was not deliberate. The military certainly had a role - although often it caused more harm than good.
The military committment was a major one – I worked with British officers who complained about how artillery units, for example, had to be transformed into infantry to operate in Northern Ireland, and then completely retrained after their tour.
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MikeWM:
I said ‘we basically got on with our lives as normal’. On the mainland, we did. Most of us aren’t in the military, you know. There was a small risk we’d be in the wrong place at the wrong time and get blown up, but we just got on with it.
In other words, you didn’t serve and didn’t care anything about the operations in Northern Ireland.
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MikeWM:
I gave some thoughts in post #117. If you expect me to give a simple answer, you’ll be disappointed. The answer to complicated questions is rarely simple.

Mike
No kidding?http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

I assume that response is Serbo-Croatian for "I still don’t have a clue."http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif
 
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estesbob:
However if one looks back on history America in this war and pevious war has always been a cut above others as far as their treatment of Prisioners go.
Let’s make sure we live up to that tradition.
Sure there are isolated abuses but it is not Govt policy-that is the key.
Implementing unambiguous standards to prevent abuse would go a long way to making sure when it occurs it truly is an isolated incidence. The McCain amendment would be a fabulous step in the right direction. Why is VP Cheney opposed?
 
Philip P:
Let’s make sure we live up to that tradition.

Implementing unambiguous standards to prevent abuse would go a long way to making sure when it occurs it truly is an isolated incidence. The McCain amendment would be a fabulous step in the right direction. Why is VP Cheney opposed?
Because it is a “feel good” bill that accomplishes nothing other than to embolden those we capture and tie the hands of interagators who will spend more time worrying if they are violating the law than they will trying to obtain info. The senate is trying to “fix” a problem that doesnt exist.
 
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MikeWM:
I’d be interested to know what you would have done better than the British government, that would have solved the problem more quickly.

Mike
Right after you answer Verns repeated questions to you as what your alternative to what we are doing in iraq is.
 
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