Ashamed of the Arch Bishop of New york

[oldgraymare2]

He’s a lot holier than I am, so I’d better get cracking.

What a great post you wrote, LiamQ.

We were lucky to have him here in the Milwaukee area for awhile, before he was transferred to New York.

I agree with your post.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I can see the OP’s point. I thought it was strange when I heard it as well. It sounded like he was being overly sensitive and ecumenical, not wanting to offend people who may not believe in Jesus or the trinity.

Remember that we had a Pope, now a saint, who made the same type of overly ecumenical mistake by allowing pagans into the sanctuary, and we now have bishops, clergy, and apologists who admit that was a mistake. If the Pope could make that mistake and still be a saint, certainly a Cardinal can make an overly ecumenical mistake as well.

Pope Benedict has also warned that “dialogue” and ecumenism cannot replace missions and the call to conversion. This same Pope has also said that the Church downplaying hell and eternal punishment has hurt the Church.

I’m not saying Cardinal Dolan was being sinful or wicked, but certainly he was being more ecumenical than anyone else there-- and Pope Benedict has warned against such ecumenism that downplays the need to convert into the Church.

First, we do not speak of “pagans.” We are not living in past centuries

Second, there is a categorical distinction between ecumenism and inter-faith relations. They are the work of two different dicasteries

Third, the encounter in Assisi was one of the great of the papacy of Pope Saint John Paul II…encounters which he and his successors – and bishops around the world – have replicated

Fourth, Pope Benedict’s statements are from warning against ecumenism. When he went on a pilgrimage in honour of Martin Luther, when he returned to Germany in 2011, among many statements to the Lutherans, he said:
*I am particularly grateful to you, my dear brother, Pastor Schneider, for receiving me and for the words with which you have welcomed me here among you. You have opened your heart and openly expressed a truly shared faith, a longing for unity. And we are also glad, for I believe that this session, our meetings here, are also being celebrated as the feast of our shared faith. Moreover, I would like to express my thanks to all of you for your gift in making it possible for us to speak with one another as Christians here, in this historic place

As the Bishop of Rome, it is deeply moving for me to be meeting you here in the ancient Augustinian convent in Erfurt. As we have just heard, this is where Luther studied theology. This is where he celebrated his first Mass. Against his father’s wishes, he did not continue the study of Law, but instead he studied theology and set off on the path towards priesthood in the Order of Saint Augustine. And on this path, he was not simply concerned with this or that. What constantly exercised him was the question of God, the deep passion and driving force of his whole life’s journey. “How do I receive the grace of God?”: this question struck him in the heart and lay at the foundation of all his theological searching and inner struggle /…/

“How do I receive the grace of God?” The fact that this question was the driving force of his whole life never ceases to make a deep impression on me /…/

It was the error of the Reformation period that for the most part we could only see what divided us and we failed to grasp existentially what we have in common in terms of the great deposit of sacred Scripture and the early Christian creeds. For me, the great ecumenical step forward of recent decades is that we have become aware of all this common ground, that we acknowledge it as we pray and sing together, as we make our joint commitment to the Christian ethos in our dealings with the world, as we bear common witness to the God of Jesus Christ in this world as our inalienable, shared foundation.

To be sure, the risk of losing it is not unreal. I would like to make two brief points here. The geography of Christianity has changed dramatically in recent times, and is in the process of changing further. Faced with a new form of Christianity, which is spreading with overpowering missionary dynamism, sometimes in frightening ways, the mainstream Christian denominations often seem at a loss. This is a form of Christianity with little institutional depth, little rationality and even less dogmatic content, and with little stability. This worldwide phenomenon – that bishops from all over the world are constantly telling me about – poses a question to us all: what is this new form of Christianity saying to us, for better and for worse? In any event, it raises afresh the question about what has enduring validity and what can or must be changed – the question of our fundamental faith choice.

The second challenge to worldwide Christianity of which I wish to speak is more profound and in our country more controversial: the secularized context of the world in which we Christians today have to live and bear witness to our faith. /…/

This is a key ecumenical task in which we have to help one another: developing a deeper and livelier faith. It is not strategy that saves us and saves Christianity, but faith – thought out and lived afresh; through such faith, Christ enters this world of ours, and with him, the living God. As the martyrs of the Nazi era brought us together and prompted that great initial ecumenical opening, so today, faith that is lived from deep within amid a secularized world is the most powerful ecumenical force that brings us together, guiding us towards unity in the one Lord. And we pray to him, asking that we may learn to live the faith anew, and that in this way we may then become one*

 

[josh987654321]

The protestant ministers use the name of Jesus and don’t hesitate. And Paula White even invoked the Father, Son and Spirit.

And the Archbishop of New York crosses himself silently, says a OT prayer and then says “Amen”

If I didn’t see the uniform, I wouldn’t know if I was listening to a Christian man or a unitarian.

IMO we will answer for political correctness at the judgment.

I watched it here - youtube.com/watch?v=DB38yoXOPvQ

I thought it was good, I thought he picked a very good Bible verse. I believe the Sign of the Cross acknowledges our Lord Jesus Christ, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, all in the one very powerful and humble sign.

I don’t believe he was holding back in an effort to be politically correct. And I think that’s your upset about and not in what he did or said, but that you thought he may have been holding back for fear of political correctness.

If I didn’t see the uniform, I would have assumed Catholic simply by the very beautiful, powerful and humble sign of the cross.

I hope this has helped

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[josh987654321]

His Eminence, the Cardinal Archbishop’s text was most beautifully chosen.

I agree, very fitting for the occasion I think.

What I find a shame is such people as present themselves as Catholic while thinking they may arrogate to themselves to critique a Cardinal of the Church.

Ours is a hierarchical Church.

It’s just; I have never found authoritarian appeals to be all that convincing, least of all softening of a heart. Luke 9:46

I hope this has helped

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Memaw]

Ashamed?
Over-reacting a tad, don’t you think?

I agree. I loved the way he kept looking up to God. He was PRAYING!!

God Bless, Memaw

 

[commenter]

Wisdom is in Catholic Bibles
It’s not in the Jewish or Prorestant Bibles

It is deeply respected by Jews and Protestants, considered “inspired” by some, to some extent, even if not in the Jewish or Protestant canon. People can refer to it, just as people quote the early Church fathers.

 

[CB_Catholic]

I can see the OP’s point. I thought it was strange when I heard it as well. It sounded like he was being overly sensitive and ecumenical, not wanting to offend people who may not believe in Jesus or the trinity.

Remember that we had a Pope, now a saint, who made the same type of overly ecumenical mistake by allowing pagans into the sanctuary, and we now have bishops, clergy, and apologists who admit that was a mistake. If the Pope could make that mistake and still be a saint, certainly a Cardinal can make an overly ecumenical mistake as well.

Pope Benedict has also warned that “dialogue” and ecumenism cannot replace missions and the call to conversion. This same Pope has also said that the Church downplaying hell and eternal punishment has hurt the Church.

I’m not saying Cardinal Dolan was being sinful or wicked, but certainly he was being more ecumenical than anyone else there-- and Pope Benedict has warned against such ecumenism that downplays the need to convert into the Church.

Reading from the Book of Wisdom is not ecumenical at all. This book not accepted as inspired scripture by either most Protestants or Jews. Already I have read criticism from a Protestant who, not being familiar with the book, believe that the “she” in the reading referred to Mary and accused the Cardinal and Catholics of idolatry. That hardly is the result of ecumenism. I believe his reading was perfect for inaugurating the new leader of the country, because if there is anything he needs, it is the gift of Wisdom.

 

[CB_Catholic]

It is deeply respected by Jews and Protestants, considered “inspired” by some, to some extent, even if not in the Jewish or Protestant canon. People can refer to it, just as people quote the early Church fathers.

Only in a few denominations is this true. Most do not read or refer to it, few consider it inspired.

 

[MaryT777]

I’m ashamed of the scriptural illiteracy displayed by the OP.

OUCH. I think forum guideline state it’s not acceptable to personally discuss a poster but to stick to the content of the post. It seemed to me a sincere question with excellent answers to the post.

That’s how we learn.

 

[ChurchSoldier]

His Eminence, the Cardinal Archbishop’s text was most beautifully chosen.

What I find a shame is such people as present themselves as Catholic while thinking they may arrogate to themselves to critique a Cardinal of the Church.

Ours is a hierarchical Church.

The words were beautiful.

To your point, I and others are not being arrogative. As a hierarchical church those being led are appropriate in having an expectation of strong leadership of those given the mantle of authority.

Leaders lead by example, by what they do and what they choose not to do. Our beliefs are reflected by the words we say and the things we do. When a man in succession of the Apostles is acting publicly as a successor of Jesus it is absolutely appropriate to expect him to mention Jesus.

As such, if a successor to Christ is praying on the largest stage in the world, it would very much a reasonable expectation by followers of Christ that he mention the one he succeeds, and frankly to question should he not.

Thanks for the discussion.

 

[Pulvis]

I watched Timothy Cardinal Dolan, saw no problem with his Prayer. Much ado about nothing. There are battles to be fought. This aint one of 'em.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

The Word became flesh, He lived among us, and we saw His glory, the glory that He has from the Father as only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message

A Cardinal prays from scripture, and there’s a problem?

 

[tawny]

His Eminence, the Cardinal Archbishop’s text was most beautifully chosen.

What I find a shame is such people as present themselves as Catholic while thinking they may arrogate to themselves to critique a Cardinal of the Church.

Ours is a hierarchical Church.

 

[pianistclare]

First, we do not speak of “pagans.” We are not living in past centuries

Second, there is a categorical distinction between ecumenism and inter-faith relations. They are the work of two different dicasteries

Third, the encounter in Assisi was one of the great of the papacy of Pope Saint John Paul II…encounters which he and his successors – and bishops around the world – have replicated

Fourth, Pope Benedict’s statements are from warning against ecumenism. When he went on a pilgrimage in honour of Martin Luther, when he returned to Germany in 2011, among many statements to the Lutherans, he said:
I am particularly grateful to you, my dear brother, Pastor Schneider, for receiving me and for the words with which you have welcomed me here among you. You have opened your heart and openly expressed a truly shared faith, a longing for unity. And we are also glad, for I believe that this session, our meetings here, are also being celebrated as the feast of our shared faith. Moreover, I would like to express my thanks to all of you for your gift in making it possible for us to speak with one another as Christians here, in this historic place

As the Bishop of Rome, it is deeply moving for me to be meeting you here in the ancient Augustinian convent in Erfurt. As we have just heard, this is where Luther studied theology. This is where he celebrated his first Mass. Against his father’s wishes, he did not continue the study of Law, but instead he studied theology and set off on the path towards priesthood in the Order of Saint Augustine. And on this path, he was not simply concerned with this or that. What constantly exercised him was the question of God, the deep passion and driving force of his whole life’s journey. “How do I receive the grace of God?”: this question struck him in the heart and lay at the foundation of all his theological searching and inner struggle /…/

“How do I receive the grace of God?” The fact that this question was the driving force of his whole life never ceases to make a deep impression on me /…/

It was the error of the Reformation period that for the most part we could only see what divided us and we failed to grasp existentially what we have in common in terms of the great deposit of sacred Scripture and the early Christian creeds. For me, the great ecumenical step forward of recent decades is that we have become aware of all this common ground, that we acknowledge it as we pray and sing together, as we make our joint commitment to the Christian ethos in our dealings with the world, as we bear common witness to the God of Jesus Christ in this world as our inalienable, shared foundation.

To be sure, the risk of losing it is not unreal. I would like to make two brief points here. The geography of Christianity has changed dramatically in recent times, and is in the process of changing further. Faced with a new form of Christianity, which is spreading with overpowering missionary dynamism, sometimes in frightening ways, the mainstream Christian denominations often seem at a loss. This is a form of Christianity with little institutional depth, little rationality and even less dogmatic content, and with little stability. This worldwide phenomenon – that bishops from all over the world are constantly telling me about – poses a question to us all: what is this new form of Christianity saying to us, for better and for worse? In any event, it raises afresh the question about what has enduring validity and what can or must be changed – the question of our fundamental faith choice.

The second challenge to worldwide Christianity of which I wish to speak is more profound and in our country more controversial: the secularized context of the world in which we Christians today have to live and bear witness to our faith. /…/

This is a key ecumenical task in which we have to help one another: developing a deeper and livelier faith. It is not strategy that saves us and saves Christianity, but faith – thought out and lived afresh; through such faith, Christ enters this world of ours, and with him, the living God. As the martyrs of the Nazi era brought us together and prompted that great initial ecumenical opening, so today, faith that is lived from deep within amid a secularized world is the most powerful ecumenical force that brings us together, guiding us towards unity in the one Lord. And we pray to him, asking that we may learn to live the faith anew, and that in this way we may then become one

Beautiful response Father.
My goodness, we are a stiff necked people. This is exactly why people think poorly of Catholics. Some have little respect for the clergy and feel they are on the same level and scholarship as the average person. I for one, was proud to have Cardinal Dolan represent us.

 

[rfournier103]

Cardinal Dolan’s invocation was a paraphase of the prayer of Solomon in the Old Testament asking God for wisdom to govern the people “in holiness and righeousness…” and in my opinion is most appropriate for the inauguration of our new President. What an uncharitable post to criticize Cardinal Dolan over this beautiful invocation.

Wisdom, chapter 9 usccb website

**Cardinal Dolan’s invocation prayer:
**
God of our ancestors and Lord of mercy,
you who have made all things
And in your providence have charged us
to rule the creatures produced by you,
To govern the world in holiness and righteousness,
and to render judgment with integrity of heart:
Give us Wisdom, for we are your servants,
weak and short-lived and lacking
in comprehension of judgment and of laws.
Indeed, though one be perfect among mortals,
if Wisdom, which comes from you, be lacking,
we count for nothing.
Now with you is Wisdom, who knows your will
and was there when you made the world;
Who understands what is pleasing in your eyes
and what is conformable with your commands.
Send her forth from your holy heavens
from your glorious throne dispatch her
That she may be with us and work with us,
that we may grasp what is pleasing to you.
For she knows and understands all things,
and will guide us prudently in our affairs
and safeguard us by her glory. Amen.

I’m a “fan” of Cardinal Dolan. I think it’s interesting that he chose to share a passage from the Deuterocanon that many Christians don’t consider to be Scriptural. I love the Book of Wisdom and I think the reading was great. I’m normally a “glass is half full” guy and I’m glad Cardinal Dolan was there. He’s a better man than I - I didn’t even watch.

 

[Peebo]

Well I thought Cardinal Dolan chose the right words from scripture…the other two sounded like they were preaching an invocation prayer to anoint a religious leader rather than a politician

 

[gilliam]

I thought he did a fine job

 

[Sarcelle]

The protestant ministers use the name of Jesus and don’t hesitate. And Paula White even invoked the Father, Son and Spirit.

And the Archbishop of New York crosses himself silently, says a OT prayer and then says “Amen”

If I didn’t see the uniform, I wouldn’t know if I was listening to a Christian man or a unitarian.

IMO we will answer for political correctness at the judgment.

So, what should he have done?

 

[Don_Ruggero]

OUCH. I think forum guideline state it’s not acceptable to personally discuss a poster but to stick to the content of the post. It seemed to me a sincere question with excellent answers to the post.

That’s how we learn.

The original poster is the one who chose the title of the thread “Ashamed of the Arch Bishop of New york [sic].”

I would hope forum guidelines would utterly condemn, and in the strongest possible terms, speaking in any way negatively of a Cardinal.

 

[zab]

The original poster is the one who chose the title of the thread “Ashamed of the Arch Bishop of New york [sic].”

I would hope forum guidelines would utterly condemn, and in the strongest possible terms, speaking in any way negatively of a Cardinal.

There used to be a strict guideline about speaking about any member of the clergy in a negative uncharitable way. I can no longer find it. There also used to be a forum rule for the news forums that the title had to be the exact title of the news article that we post and a link given. This would have violated that rule, except that the rule seems to no longer apply. Or else I can no longer find it posted. It seems that some rules have changed.