Ashtanga Yoga - Eight Fold Path of Discipline

[Mickey]

If they were “yoked” to God, then they were “yogis”.

The great fathers, martyrs, and saints of the Church were not yoked to Hindu gods–that’s for sure.

As Jesus said, Matthew 11:30: “For my Yoke is easy, my burden is light.”

Beautiful verse–and it has nothing to do with yoga.

 

[codebilly]

A true theologian has experienced God through His uncreated energies by noetic prayer.

There are very few true theologians. But I can tell you this much----they were not yogis.

Remembrance of God: The incessant remembrance of the name of God. It is not just calling God to mind but it is a state attained through the purified nous. It is achieved and expressed by means of noetic prayer.

Nous: The word has various uses in Patristic teaching. It indicates either the soul or the heart or even an energy of the soul. Yet, the nous is mainly the eye of the soul; the purest part of the soul; the highest attention. It is also called noetic energy and it is not identified with reason.

Very eastern thought … (or oriental) … again, … if you read through my posts, you will find that the orient (Hinduism) may actually be a Gnosis of Judeo Christian thought.

As such, the Gnostic components must be carved away from Hinduism to reveal the pre Gnostic core truth.

 

[Mickey]

wrong … they were real yogis

Nope. They were Christian fathers, saints, martyrs, and hermits–but they were certainly not yogis.

Do not be deceived.

 

[Mickey]

Remembrance of God: The incessant remembrance of the name of God. It is not just calling God to mind but it is a state attained through the purified nous. It is achieved and expressed by means of noetic prayer.

Correct. I recommend the study of St Gregory Palamas, St Nicodemus the Hagirotie, St Seraphim of Sarov, and St Maximus the Confessor for starters.

Yet, the nous is mainly the eye of the soul; the purest part of the soul; the highest attention. It is also called noetic energy and it is not identified with reason.

Correct.

As such, the Gnostic components must be carved away from Hinduism to reveal the pre Gnostic core truth.

Wrong. You do not need to look at Hinduism and you do not need to carve anything. The Hesychatic way is rooted in the Sacraments. It is a sacramental theology with Jesus Christ at the core.

 

[codebilly]

Correct. I recommend the study of St Gregory Palamas, St Nicodemus the Hagirotie, St Seraphim of Sarov, and St Maximus the Confessor for starters.
Correct.
Wrong. You do not need to look at Hinduism and you do not need to carve anything. The Hesychatic way is rooted in the Sacraments. It is a sacramental theology with Jesus Christ at the core.

I’ve studied. Your approach is hardline preaching against Yoga. My approach is preaching the Glories of Jesus Christ and His revealed Truth to all humanity.

Catholic preaching in India has been reasonably successful, but the bible thumping protestant approach is not so successful.

I’ll stick with the preaching style that works and brings yoga practitioners to Christ.

 

[codebilly]

Which God? The Christian God? The Muslim god? The Hindu gods? Buddha?

What religion is God? There is only One God. I hope that all Orthodox preachers didn’t go to the same bible thumping, fundamentalist preaching school as you.

 

[codebilly]

Correct. I recommend the study of St Gregory Palamas, St Nicodemus the Hagirotie, St Seraphim of Sarov, and St Maximus the Confessor for starters.
.

And despite my little jabs, I do appreciate your zeal and immovable position … . THANK YOU!

I’m going to add read “A Night in the Desert of the Holy Mountain” during Lent. Is this a book recommended and approved by the Orthodox See?

Please advise.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Which one of the five rules in OP are rotten fruits?

rcscwc, I practiced yoga, as an atheist. I studied the yoga sutras of Patanjali. I stopped practicing when I came to the realization, that to continue in my study and practice, I would have to believe things I did not believe, as an atheist.

As a Christian convert, the “problem” I see with the sutras of Pantanjali, is that the divine is found within. This is not a Christian ideal. The divine is found in a Person, Jesus Christ. He is not within. He is external to ourselves and He is Who we follow.

I cannot follow two masters. I cannot follow Jesus and Patanjali at the same time.

You focus on the limbs of yoga, which is what attracted me to the philosophies of yoga. But the philosophies do not end there. As you say, they lead you to a true yoga practice, which in my opinion, is not a Christian practice. Some of what I have read here, is truly syncretic, not surface similarities.

My opinion is, to practice both yoga, in its true form, as taught by Patanjali and Christianity at the same time, you either have to become syncretic or you have to keep a very clear wall between the two practices.

Syncreticsm is a heresy. And a wall between beliefs and practice, is outside the beliefs of yoga. Your mind cannot be un-yoked from beliefs, if it is, you have to find ways to yoke them, at which point, you will become syncretic.

There is no possible way to truly follow these two masters at once.

 

[Mickey]

Your approach is hardline preaching against Yoga.

Yes. I have much study linked with much personal experience.

My approach is preaching the Glories of Jesus Christ and His revealed Truth to all humanity.

It seems like your approach is mixing Christianity with Hinduism–truth with lies. This is dangerous.

Catholic preaching in India has been reasonably successful, but the bible thumping protestant approach is not so successful.

Give the protestants some time. Their methods are usually successful.

I’ll stick with the preaching style that works and brings yoga practitioners to Christ.

That would be awesome. While you are doing this–try to convince them that there are many beneficial forms of exercise that are not so closely linked Hinduism.

 

[Mickey]

Syncreticsm is a heresy. And a wall between beliefs and practice, is outside the beliefs of yoga. Your mind cannot be un-yoked from beliefs, if it is, you have to find ways to yoke them, at which point, you will become syncretic.

There is no possible way to truly follow these two masters at once.

 

[Mickey]

There is only One God.

Yes. That is my point. The muslims and Hindus do not preach the same God as the Christians.

I hope that all Orthodox preachers didn’t go to the same bible thumping, fundamentalist preaching school as you.

Oh my—such manners!

 

[RebeccaJ]

I will add, I don’t think yoga is “evil”, it is just not compatible with Christianity. Some of the beliefs and practices are compatible. The 8 limbs, sure, on a surface read they are Christian in principle. Putting those principles into practice is where the difference lies. Meditation, is not just an Eastern practice. I meditate, but not as I did when I practiced yoga. I meditate on Jesus, His life, death and resurrection. When I practiced yoga, I meditated on myself.

 

[Mickey]

I’m going to add read “A Night in the Desert of the Holy Mountain” during Lent.

Excellent book! I read it about two years ago and thoroughly enjoyed it.

 

[SedesDomi]

As a Christian convert, the “problem” I see with the sutras of Pantanjali, is that the divine is found within.

Patanjali is not a “devotional” type of yogi, so his spiritual practice would be quite different from that of Christianity, which is a very devotional sort of practice.

A more appropriate comparison would be Christianity and Sage Narada, who wrote The Narada Bhakti Sutras, a key text in Bhakti (or “Devotional”) Yoga. According to those who practice Bhakti Yoga, Bhakti Yoga is superior to any other sort of Yoga:

This “devotion” is far greater than the path of action (karma), the path of knowledge (gyana), and the path of disciplined contemplation ([raja] yoga).

Because this “devotion” is like the fruit attained by any of these methods…

Because God also does not like pride and likes humility, “devotion” as a method is better than Karma yoga and Gyana yoga

Some believe that knowledge alone is the path of attainment.

Some others believe that Knowledge and devotion are interdependent on each other

The son of Brahma (sage Narada) believes that “devotion” is its own result

It is just like glancing at a palace or being informed of sumptuous food .

Glancing at the palace does not make the king happy nor hearing of sumptuous food remove his hunger.

Similarly knowing about “devotion”, does not help you at all. You should practice “devotion”.

So all those who want to get out of the chain of births and rebirths should only practice “devotion”.

 

[SedesDomi]

As a Christian convert, the “problem” I see with the sutras of Pantanjali, is that the divine is found within. This is not a Christian ideal.

You may be reading “within” incorrectly. Patanjali recognizes that there is a Transcendent realm, which is neither “within” nor “without”. However, how can one realize the truth of this Transcendent realm, the truth of God, in the heart? Even the Apostles – who met Christ as an external Person – also had to realize Christ “within”, in the heart.

Nepsis is awareness and watchfulness of one’s thoughts and emotions. Nepsis aims to cleanse the heart of sinful thoughts and tendencies, so that one may realize God “within”, in the heart. Elder Ephraim states:

  	Watchfulness does nothing less than cleanse the *nous* and the heart from every  			impurity. For this reason, with a little ascetical toil, watchfulness brings  			about the greatest spiritual results. When we strive ascetically and aren't  			mindful of our thoughts, we accomplish nothing.

One can’t be mindful of one’s thoughts unless one “goes within”. Of course, the purpose of going within is not to become more egotistical, or selfish, but to clean the nous, the heart, so that God can enter.

  	A pagan priest asked some monks:

   			"Does your God appear to you? Do you see Him? Does he speak to you?"

  	The fathers said:

  	"No."

  	The pagan says:

  	"If he doesn't speak to you and doesn't appear to you, this means that you  			don't have pure thoughts. When I pray, my God answers me."

  	Naturally, God didn't answer the pagan, the demons answered him, but  			nevertheless the fathers took it as an occasion of benefit and said:

  	"Indeed, the impure thoughts prevent man from communicating with God."

 

[RebeccaJ]

Patanjali is not a “devotional” type of yogi, so his spiritual practice would be quite different from that of Christianity, which is a very devotional sort of practice.

A more appropriate comparison would be Christianity and Sage Narada, who wrote The Narada Bhakti Sutras, a key text in Bhakti (or “Devotional”) Yoga. According to those who practice Bhakti Yoga, Bhakti Yoga is superior to any other sort of Yoga:

It doesn’t matter. Patanjali’s teachings are in conflict with Christianity.

 

[RebeccaJ]

You may be reading “within” incorrectly. Patanjali recognizes that there is a Transcendent realm, which is neither “within” nor “without”. However, how can one realize the truth of this Transcendent realm, the truth of God, in the heart? Even the Apostles – who met Christ as an external Person – also had to realize Christ “within”, in the heart.

Nepsis is awareness and watchfulness of one’s thoughts and emotions. Nepsis aims to cleanse the heart of sinful thoughts and tendencies, so that one may realize God “within”, in the heart. Elder Ephraim states:

One can’t be mindful of one’s thoughts unless one “goes within”. Of course, the purpose of going within is not to become more egotistical, or selfish, but to clean the nous, the heart, so that God can enter.

Transcendentalism is NOT Christianity.

As Christians, we believe on the contrary that “man is essentially a creature and remains so for all eternity, so that an absorption of the human I in the divine I will never be possible”

The Apostles came to believe because of the God. Not because they brought their mind to a point neither in or out. A Christian is a WHOLE person, not a person who sees themselves as two people, one in, and one out. This is called hypocrisy which Jesus and the Apostles taught against.

Matthew 16

13 When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” 14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.

 

[chrisb]

Are they? Can I have a source for this please, preferably a website, however if it is a book you found this in so be it, I don’t mind doing a little leg work.

simply do a little etymology on the words… you’ll be surprised where Amen comes from.

It may be similar, there are many things which are similar which are contrary to the Christian faith. the concept of Chi stands as one example, many modern Chi kung practitioners have identified it as ‘‘air’’, doesn’t make it so.

Prayer techniques are not ‘sacred or mundane’… they are simply ‘means’ to be ‘used’ by individuals. You are a Martial Artist so you might understand this through your own experience of your practice. Some martial artists are ‘purists’ and others are ‘MMA’ types. Their goal is to perfect themselves not unlike the spiritual athlete. We use what works for us to achieve spiritual vigor and health. For me Ashtanga Yoga has been a part of my life since before I was a practicing Catholic and I’ve never felt the need to disown it. Because it works.

Christianity moved from it’s Semitic cultural origins to embrace the entire Greco-Roman World. It did this not by alienating the Greco-Roman World but by incorporating what was meritous in that Culture.

I was once told that Christianity is not the bees of the field collecting honey… they go from flower to flower collecting honey and leaving behind what is not. This is why there exists a great deal of Greco-Roman Cultural elements in our Faith. As the Faith continues to embrace the rest of the world it to with take upon itself cultural elements and practices. This is not abnormal.

In the Hindu sense of the word, or how I see it? Actually it doesn’t matter, my point is not semantics, my point is that yoga, by which I do not mean ‘‘any form of prayer’’, I mean specifically the collection of meditative and physical techniques now commonly identified as yoga (any branch, any discipline) which originated amongst Hindu ascetics, commonly known today as yogis, is not a Christian prayer form, however much you may want it to be so.

The primise of your argument is that we need to look at asceticism among other cultures as somehow antithetical to Christian asceticism. This is not true. All ascetics seek discipline over themselves in order to experience ‘reality’ with clarity. What is this ‘reality’ in which they seek to experience? What should we call it? Every Culture has through natural revelation touched and experience to some degree the presense of The Real. We can call this ‘reality’ God knowing that the term ‘God’ comes from the German “Gott” who was a pagan war god among the germanic tribes. We are simply using the term to point to a reality which we acknowledge. The point is every culture, through natural revelation, reaches to touch this ‘reality’. It has spoken to our hearts and written it’s laws upon it’s walls. You seem to be ignoring this but in honesty we should not. Yes we, as Christians, has more than simple natural revelation but that should not blind us to the profound intimacy that others may have encountered even with the limits of natural revelation because God answers those who respond to Him.

Again, IF one can separate Hindu mythology from the exercise then this is great, I am no theologian but I would say continue, if not, then it is dangerous and the practitioner is fooling themself.

Well, I believe you are being far to narrow in your interpretation.

If one wishes to meditate upon the Divine Mercy of the Lord Jesus Christ, seated or moving, then I cannot see a problem with that. You seem to think that I am out to ‘‘get’’ Yoga. I am merely stating that the Church has given her answer to the issue. As Catholics we should obey.

I don’t think you are ‘out to get Yoga’ I simply know that my practice of Ashtanga-Vinyasa has aided me in my journey to know Christ in the Roman Church.

 

[LDNCatholic]

simply do a little etymology on the words… you’ll be surprised where Amen comes from.

My research tells me it is Hebrew in origin. Not that surprised. If you have a different source please show me.

Prayer techniques are not ‘sacred or mundane’… they are simply ‘means’ to be ‘used’ by individuals. You are a Martial Artist so you might understand this through your own experience of your practice. Some martial artists are ‘purists’ and others are ‘MMA’ types. Their goal is to perfect themselves not unlike the spiritual athlete. We use what works for us to achieve spiritual vigor and health. For me Ashtanga Yoga has been a part of my life since before I was a practicing Catholic and I’ve never felt the need to disown it. Because it works.

A proper martial artist fights. For self defence or competition depends on the practitioner but you cannot take the martial elements from the martial arts and expect to be left with anything viable.

Well, I believe you are being far to narrow in your interpretation.

Better the narrow path mate.

I don’t think you are ‘out to get Yoga’ I simply know that my practice of Ashtanga-Vinyasa has aided me in my journey to know Christ in the Roman Church.

OK. but I simply know that mysticism from outside Christianity is incompatible with Church teachings.

If you are not performing Hindu ritual, and it sincerely draws you closer to Christ, rather than just giving you the infamous ‘‘warm fuzzies’’ and being something that you just like doing so you find reasons to do it regardless, fair enough.

 

[SedesDomi]

Transcendentalism is NOT Christianity.

No one mentioned Transcendentalism. (You didn’t define what you meant by “Transcendentalism”, but no one mentioned the word.) But I did mention that God is Transcendent: “God transcends all creatures” – CCC, #42. Similarly (though not identically), the yogic tradition speaks of Brahman as transcending all impermanent phenomena.

As Christians, we believe on the contrary that “man is essentially a creature and remains so for all eternity, so that an absorption of the human I in the divine I will never be possible”

The process of theosis involves humanity become one with God’s Energies, which are just as much God as God’s Essence (or God’s “I”). So, human “I” and God’s “I” will remain distinct forever, though the human “I” can become God (via God’s Energies), through grace – which is similar to the position of Sri Ramanuja and the Qualified Non-Dualist school of Vedanta.