Ask A Baptist Pastor

[reformissionary]

I know this doesn’t address your comment directly, but I just wanted to point something out. Scripture is the Truth in writing. They are not two separate entities. How can the Church protect and promote the Truth if it doesn’t know what the Truth is? The answer is it can’t.

That is why this naturally follows:

Mat 18
17: If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

The Truth would include the correct interpretation of Scripture.

I read this twice and still don’t know exactly what point you are trying to make.

 

[pismopal]

Yes, Jesus died for the elect.

For your answer on Adam, look to Romans 5 which explains it well. Noah came after Adam, is from Adam. Noah didn’t introduce sin into the world like Adam. For example, v19…

As to Mary, is she omnipotent and omnipresent? Those are attributes of God. Mary is not God, and therefore very limited. Yet billions of Catholic prayers are rising to her. How does she hear them all? Only explanation is that she would have to be God, which of course you don’t believe. Yet you give her a role that only God could fulfill. That goes for other Saints too.

You can say “mystery” all you want. It’s not in Scripture, makes no sense out of limited humanity, and therefore is evidence of false teaching.

Who gave you the authority to grant or limit what goes on in the afterlife? You jump from one conclusion to another based on your own limited religious training. " Only explanation is she would have to be God." No… that certainly isn’t the only possible explanation…that is just as far as your own mind and preconceived opinion will allow you to go.

 

[jmcrae]

I read this twice and still don’t know exactly what point you are trying to make.

According to the Bible - according to what Jesus taught the Apostles, in fact - the Church is the final authority in matters of disagreement. Not the Bible.

Jesus did not say, If you have a disagreement, search the Scriptures to see who is right. He said, Take it to the Church, and abide by the ruling of the Church.

 

[Betterave]

I understand your trying not to get spread to thin. You are in a tough spot here and I appreciate that you are fighting hard. It really makes me believe that if and when you decide to come into the Church, you’ll make a great evangelist and apologist.

You are being too kind. Seriously! If Steve wants to become a great apologist he’ll have to learn to not *set himself up *for getting spread too thin. Did you read his OP? A good apologist (and sincere truth-seeker) should address one issue at a time. (Nice guy though, can’t knock him for that!)

On being spread thin:

Catholics, please take note. I responded honestly and Linda has refused to answer in any meaningful way the same question she asked me.

…what is this about (other than an exhibition of what happens when you spread yourself too thinly)?

 

[jam070406]

fix’d.

You aren’t going to convinced anyone by telling them that is they open their mind they will end up agreeing with you.

Both sides agree that there is an absolute Truth, both sides believe the Holy Spirit has led them to it. One of them must be wrong- so, a rational discussion is needed or there must be an agreement to disagree.

For all you know, the Holy Spirit has guided him to fullness of Truth and he’s been sent here by God to share it with you.

All I’m asking is that you understand that telling him “My side has the right answer” is not going to get you anywhere.

Great man. Rational discussion is what we’ve been having.
I merely was trying to get Steve to consider the big picture and not just what was confined to the Bible. If you believe the fullness of Christian Truth can be found in the Bible alone then you are free to believe that. It’s not true, but hey like you said one is right and one is wrong. Unfortunately for you and Steve the Church has more then just the Bible to stand on. Holy Spirit please lead us to the Truth!

 

[reformissionary]

Who gave you the authority to grant or limit what goes on in the afterlife? You jump from one conclusion to another based on your own limited religious training. " Only explanation is she would have to be God." No… that certainly isn’t the only possible explanation…that is just as far as your own mind and preconceived opinion will allow you to go.

That’s key to my rejection of Catholicism. You believe in contradictions. And not just any contradictions, but ones that unwittingly deify humanity. These aren’t mere difficulties, not merely hard passages in Scripture…but clear contradictions and ontological impossibilities. We know what God says about humans and our limitations. We know what God says about Himself and his infinite power and pervasive presence. If you don’t keep those separated you will create false teaching. Hence, Marianism.

 

[Betterave]

A small point of clarification:

Great man. Rational discussion is what we’ve been having.
I merely was trying to get Steve to consider the big picture and not just what was confined to the Bible. If you believe -]the fullness of Christian Truth/-] that “Bible alone” can be found in -]the Bible alone /-]the fullness of Christian Truth then you are free to believe that. It’s not true, but hey like you said one is right and one is wrong. Unfortunately for you and Steve the Church has more then just the Bible to stand on. Holy Spirit please lead us to the Truth!

 

[jmcrae]

That’s key to my rejection of Catholicism. You believe in contradictions. And not just any contradictions, but ones that unwittingly deify humanity.

What is your concept of Heaven? Do you really believe that the Saints are bound, gagged, and blindfolded? Is that what you expect for yourself, in your own reward after this earth?

These aren’t mere difficulties, not merely hard passages in Scripture…but clear contradictions and ontological impossibilities. We know what God says about humans and our limitations.

God is talking about here on earth, as a consequence of sin and death. In Heaven, all the limitations of sin and death will be gone. We will be free to do whatever we want. We will have the run of all of time and space.

 

[jam070406]

A small point of clarification:

 

[Betterave]

That’s key to my rejection of Catholicism. You believe in contradictions. And not just any contradictions, but ones that unwittingly deify humanity. These aren’t mere difficulties, not merely hard passages in Scripture…but clear contradictions and ontological impossibilities. We know what God says about humans and our limitations. We know what God says about Himself and his infinite power and pervasive presence. If you don’t keep those separated you will create false teaching. Hence, Marianism.

By whom * he has given us most great and precious promises: that by these you * may be made partakers of the divine nature. (2 Peter 1, 4)**

 

[tjm190]

When a good person dies, we often hear talk of them ‘being up in heaven and down on us’ followed in many cases by a request- we ask that person to pray for us. This is the exact same thing we do with the saints, Mary included.

 

[BeeCatholic]

My background:
I am Catholic, have been for 21 years.

I am not a student of Theology. I do not read the Bible in order to pick it apart or put my own interpretations on it. I believe (as I’m sure lay people of all faiths do) that when I read a passage, it is God who tells me what it means. If my priest puts forth an interpretation that I do not understand or agree with, I seek clarification from God, using outlets that He has given me (my own brain to read the Bible, my own priest or others, internet, and especially my own heart and mind to hear His word, etc.)

I often am asked by others, including Catholics, Protestands, and undecideds, to pray for them for this, that or the other. I think it is a request made by Christians worldwide. I do not know any of the people answering on this forum, but I believe it is safe to say that if I asked for anyone to pray for me, the majority would.

So what is the big deal about asking a Saint or the Virgin Mary to pray for me? These are people who have already achieved a much higher understanding than you or I. Why can’t I ask them to throw their prayers in, too?

BeeCatholic

 

[reformissionary]

When a good person dies, we often hear talk of them ‘being up in heaven and down on us’ followed in many cases by a request- we ask that person to pray for us. This is the exact same thing we do with the saints, Mary included.

How can they hear everyone from around the world at the same time? How can they possibly bring all those petitions to Jesus? You are giving them attributes that are only of God. Not even Satan can be given those.

 

[reformissionary]

I often am asked by others, including Catholics, Protestands, and undecideds, to pray for them for this, that or the other. I think it is a request made by Christians worldwide. I do not know any of the people answering on this forum, but I believe it is safe to say that if I asked for anyone to pray for me, the majority would.

So what is the big deal about asking a Saint or the Virgin Mary to pray for me? These are people who have already achieved a much higher understanding than you or I. Why can’t I ask them to throw their prayers in, too?

Because if I ask you there is presence required. You are limited and will only hear and respond to a limited number of requests. Saints in heaven, apparently, are no longer limited. Do they graduate to Godhood? Of course you say no. But your teachings on praying to the Saints says yes by default. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

 

[jmcrae]

How can they hear everyone from around the world at the same time?

“Time” is an earthly concept. They live in Eternity. Eternity is not “a really long time” - it is the absence of time. Events do not occur sequentially in Heaven. Those who are in Heaven can experience any event they want, in any order they want, for as long as they want, and in relation to time here on earth, it can be like one minute, or thousands of years.

If hundreds of people are all praying to St. Anthony at the same moment for assistance in finding lost objects, he has the ability to take each request in turn, locate the lost object, and then go back to the instant of time and the place on earth where the request came from, and show the person where their lost item is. He can do this over and over again, as many times as necessary. He isn’t limited as we are limited.

Does this make him to be as powerful as God? Surely not - God is not just a superman who is stronger and smarter than we are - He is the Creator. St. Anthony can’t actually create anything - and his ability to find lost objects was not from himself, either - it, too, is from God.

How can they possibly bring all those petitions to Jesus? You are giving them attributes that are only of God. Not even Satan can be given those.

What has Satan got to do with it? Satan is in Hell - he hasn’t got any power at all except to lie and to draw people away from what is good.

 

[DCNBILL]

How can they hear everyone from around the world at the same time? How can they possibly bring all those petitions to Jesus? You are giving them attributes that are only of God. Not even Satan can be given those.

This statement either demonstrates a disbelief in heaven or a very serious misunderstanding of heaven. Note that God is outside of time, He does not live within His creation he is outside of it. God “stands” before all of creation, before all of time from the moment of creation until the end of time and has all eternity to view any particular moment in the life of anyone. Now to be “in heaven” is to be with God, outside of created time. Please do not attribute human conditions and limitations to our almighty Creator.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Because if I ask you there is presence required. You are limited and will only hear and respond to a limited number of requests. Saints in heaven, apparently, are no longer limited. Do they graduate to Godhood? Of course you say no. But your teachings on praying to the Saints says yes by default. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

How does praying to Saints mean that they’ve graduated to godhood?

That comment shows to me that you really don’t understand what we mean by prayer to Saints. Prayer and worship are two different things. We’re asking for them to intercede with God. God does the lifting, not the Saints.

 

[tjm190]

How can they hear everyone from around the world at the same time? How can they possibly bring all those petitions to Jesus? You are giving them attributes that are only of God. Not even Satan can be given those.

Is it your belief that when we can not by any means communicate with those who have died? Who, if anyone, hears when a husband ‘speaks’ to his deceased wife in Heaven? If they may hear the prayers of one person, why not two, or three…

An advanced CPU can process tens of trillions of operations per second, far more then any saint will ever be required to in terms of prayers- surely CPU’s are not divine.

 

[reformissionary]

By whom * he has given us most great and precious promises: that by these you * may be made partakers of the divine nature. (2 Peter 1, 4)**

I have no idea what you are intending to say by this.

 

[jmcrae]

Because if I ask you there is presence required. You are limited and will only hear and respond to a limited number of requests.

That’s because here on earth, we are limited by time and space.

Saints in heaven, apparently, are no longer limited. Do they graduate to Godhood?

No - they live with God in Eternity.

Of course you say no. But your teachings on praying to the Saints says yes by default.

We can pray to the Saints for intercession, and we can ask them to help us. Of course we can also ask God for these things, but we can also ask God to do things for us that other human beings here on earth can do for us, as well - such as finding a job, or getting along better with a spouse.

You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

Neither can you. Whatever you deny to the Saints in Heaven, you also have to deny to yourself, when thinking of your own afterlife. If you say that the Saints are going to be bound and gagged, then you have to think that you yourself will also be bound and gagged when you get to Heaven, too.