J
JRKH
Guest
Yes, but I was trying to answer the poster from their perspective, not ours. The Anglican communion “claims” apostolic succession and so they would fit within the framework of the question I was answering.
Peace
James
- Status
Peace
James
J
JRKH
Guest
Steve, Just a note before I go to bed.
You have some serious stamina to go through all of this, and I must admire the relative charity with whish this thread has proceeded. I have not read all the posts and I know that there have been flareups on both sides, but overall I think everyone has acted pretty well.
I hope that at least there are things being said here that are worth your considering and doing more research on.
Peace
James
You have some serious stamina to go through all of this, and I must admire the relative charity with whish this thread has proceeded. I have not read all the posts and I know that there have been flareups on both sides, but overall I think everyone has acted pretty well.
I hope that at least there are things being said here that are worth your considering and doing more research on.
Peace
James
D
duffyk4
Guest
Post of the day, in my humble opinion. I think we should stop the fruitless arguing and let go of our pride and just pray for each other. Good night everyone!
J
JoeT777
Guest
No, we shouldn’t support Notre Dame. I’d be in favor in asking them to change their name; one wonders if they believe in Our Lady given the recent past. Notre Dame’s disrespect to the discipline of the Church isn’t disunity in faith; it’s the result of subjective reasoning in faith, and bad reasoning at that. The point of ‘Church’ rests in faith and morals, failing that we’ve failed to persevere in our faith, reflecting on our humanity, not the Church.
What fault was reformed in the Catholic Church? Can you name one? Protestantism refers to the nature of the movement, i.e. ‘protest’. In the opinion of some, including myself, Luther’s actions were driven by error with an equal part of clinical insanity. The movement was schism, it reformed nothing except that it has misled millions.
The one True Church of Christ, the Catholic Church, is the Messianic Kingdom predicted in the Old Testament. And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be prepared in the top of the mountains, and high above the hills: and people shall flow to it. The house of God of Jacob will teach His ways. (Micah 4:1 C.f. 4:2). The fulfilled prophecy of a people girding Her superstructure, not simply building of steel and concrete. Constituted by Christ this Temple is most venerable (Matt 12:6). A kingdom whose founder, and foundation is Christ, “And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom” (Matt 4:23 see also 9:35; 13:17 Mark 1:14 ect., etc.) A church whose difficult understanding are not hidden, pronounced to the world its open message of salvation (C.f. Matt 13:11). Adorned, not with bare walls and cold illations of self-salvific elitism, rather a humble acceptance of Christ’s cross and the obligation to march that cross forward, obedient to the faith of all nations (C.f. Roman 1:5) Instead of the self-appointed leaders of this Church are recipients of a hierarchical organization formed by Christ (C.f. Matt 16:18). Her patristic nature guides the rules over the Kingdom of God as vicar for Christ judging justly (Matt 18:17). This Church, Luther’s abandoned spouse, was provisioned for orderly succession through its first Vicar, Peter (C.f. Matt 16:18) and will prevail against hell, as well as Luther. In unity this Church was placed high on the mountain to be seen by all, a beacon of salvation for all, not just for Luther’s pre-elected saints. Not a candle hidden under a basket, rather a faith that illuminates inwardly as well as outwardly, like beacon of light. The Church abandoned by Luther is the Pillar of Truth (1 Tim 3:15) Luther’s pre-schism Church was one of principled authority, governing the flock, (C.f. Matt 18:18 and John 21:17.) This is, and at one time was also Luther’s, One Church that served through the ministering of the sacraments and teacher of revealed truth. We wake every day to her infallible teachings.
The Church is the head and body of Christ and God’s Kingdom (C.f. Col. 1:18) along with the faithful they make the Mystical Body of Christ. Apostolic teachings are important in that they establish the True Catholic traditions of Christ (Cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:14). Those Traditions were set in Holy Scripture and in the Magisterium of the Church.
What did Christ mean when He established His Kingdom? That the Kingdom of Christ should come and go? It’s right here in today’s Catholic Church – properly known as the Roman Catholic Church. In this regard Catholics conform their beliefs to God’s Truth as taught by the Apostles. What you perceive as disunity is little more than sinners persevering with fear and trembling to work out your salvation (Cf. Phil 2:12).
All of which is to say the Church forms our faith; it’s not the object of our faith. The doctrine of sola scriptura holds Scripture itself as the sole infallible source of faith; which is in principle is true when taught by the Church. The understanding of scripture is subject to human nature and as such fallible. By taking the Scriptures as that infallible source then one might expect Scriptures to validate itself as being an infallible rule of faith; Christ didn’t set out written instruction in his own hand – rather he set His Kingdom on the roads and byways of the world. We find that Christ’s mission, in part, establishes a “Church;” not a Scripture. And, should we find Scripture infallible, it would rightly be an object of worship – that is having the infallible spirit of word. Catholics decidedly don’t worship a book. Scripture and Tradition, the Church, the Councils the Bishops, and the Pope all form the infallible rule of faith. Miracles are extraordinary means by which we can see the Word of God and are not normally binding on the entire Body of Christ.
In trusting my eternal soul to the Catholic Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, the Kingdom of God, I am trusting in God’s promise to Moses that the Kingdom Moses established will have an eternal Seat of authority. God promises Moses a Kingdom; nowhere do we find a verse that terminates that Kingdom of God. (Matt 21:43-44). So, Christ word is immutable, is He an Indian giver? Mosses’ sacrifices, different from the Christ’s sacrifice, was given up to be consumed by God. However what Christ was to do was to turn over the ‘Key’ of the Kingdom to a new tenant, what is today the gentile Kingdom we call the Roman Catholic Church. It’s here we see Christ conquering the world in the Messianic vision of David. The Roman Catholic Church is The Kingdom of Christ, a continuation of that same seat of authority given Moses. (Psalm 109:4) One and only one faith can be representative of God’s absolute truth.
JoeT
What fault was reformed in the Catholic Church? Can you name one? Protestantism refers to the nature of the movement, i.e. ‘protest’. In the opinion of some, including myself, Luther’s actions were driven by error with an equal part of clinical insanity. The movement was schism, it reformed nothing except that it has misled millions.
The one True Church of Christ, the Catholic Church, is the Messianic Kingdom predicted in the Old Testament. And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be prepared in the top of the mountains, and high above the hills: and people shall flow to it. The house of God of Jacob will teach His ways. (Micah 4:1 C.f. 4:2). The fulfilled prophecy of a people girding Her superstructure, not simply building of steel and concrete. Constituted by Christ this Temple is most venerable (Matt 12:6). A kingdom whose founder, and foundation is Christ, “And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom” (Matt 4:23 see also 9:35; 13:17 Mark 1:14 ect., etc.) A church whose difficult understanding are not hidden, pronounced to the world its open message of salvation (C.f. Matt 13:11). Adorned, not with bare walls and cold illations of self-salvific elitism, rather a humble acceptance of Christ’s cross and the obligation to march that cross forward, obedient to the faith of all nations (C.f. Roman 1:5) Instead of the self-appointed leaders of this Church are recipients of a hierarchical organization formed by Christ (C.f. Matt 16:18). Her patristic nature guides the rules over the Kingdom of God as vicar for Christ judging justly (Matt 18:17). This Church, Luther’s abandoned spouse, was provisioned for orderly succession through its first Vicar, Peter (C.f. Matt 16:18) and will prevail against hell, as well as Luther. In unity this Church was placed high on the mountain to be seen by all, a beacon of salvation for all, not just for Luther’s pre-elected saints. Not a candle hidden under a basket, rather a faith that illuminates inwardly as well as outwardly, like beacon of light. The Church abandoned by Luther is the Pillar of Truth (1 Tim 3:15) Luther’s pre-schism Church was one of principled authority, governing the flock, (C.f. Matt 18:18 and John 21:17.) This is, and at one time was also Luther’s, One Church that served through the ministering of the sacraments and teacher of revealed truth. We wake every day to her infallible teachings.
The Church is the head and body of Christ and God’s Kingdom (C.f. Col. 1:18) along with the faithful they make the Mystical Body of Christ. Apostolic teachings are important in that they establish the True Catholic traditions of Christ (Cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:14). Those Traditions were set in Holy Scripture and in the Magisterium of the Church.
What did Christ mean when He established His Kingdom? That the Kingdom of Christ should come and go? It’s right here in today’s Catholic Church – properly known as the Roman Catholic Church. In this regard Catholics conform their beliefs to God’s Truth as taught by the Apostles. What you perceive as disunity is little more than sinners persevering with fear and trembling to work out your salvation (Cf. Phil 2:12).
All of which is to say the Church forms our faith; it’s not the object of our faith. The doctrine of sola scriptura holds Scripture itself as the sole infallible source of faith; which is in principle is true when taught by the Church. The understanding of scripture is subject to human nature and as such fallible. By taking the Scriptures as that infallible source then one might expect Scriptures to validate itself as being an infallible rule of faith; Christ didn’t set out written instruction in his own hand – rather he set His Kingdom on the roads and byways of the world. We find that Christ’s mission, in part, establishes a “Church;” not a Scripture. And, should we find Scripture infallible, it would rightly be an object of worship – that is having the infallible spirit of word. Catholics decidedly don’t worship a book. Scripture and Tradition, the Church, the Councils the Bishops, and the Pope all form the infallible rule of faith. Miracles are extraordinary means by which we can see the Word of God and are not normally binding on the entire Body of Christ.
In trusting my eternal soul to the Catholic Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, the Kingdom of God, I am trusting in God’s promise to Moses that the Kingdom Moses established will have an eternal Seat of authority. God promises Moses a Kingdom; nowhere do we find a verse that terminates that Kingdom of God. (Matt 21:43-44). So, Christ word is immutable, is He an Indian giver? Mosses’ sacrifices, different from the Christ’s sacrifice, was given up to be consumed by God. However what Christ was to do was to turn over the ‘Key’ of the Kingdom to a new tenant, what is today the gentile Kingdom we call the Roman Catholic Church. It’s here we see Christ conquering the world in the Messianic vision of David. The Roman Catholic Church is The Kingdom of Christ, a continuation of that same seat of authority given Moses. (Psalm 109:4) One and only one faith can be representative of God’s absolute truth.
JoeT
D
Dancelittleewok
Guest
We are agreed: Christ is referred to in Scripture as the New Adam. Within Calvinism, there is total depravity which affects all i.e. “no one is righteous” etc because the first Adam is the representative of humanity. Ergo, in order for Christ to be the New Adam, he must be the representative of all humanity.
Yet according to Calvinism, Christ only died for the elect, a select few. If that is indeed the case, then a better parallel biblical figure would be Noah whose Ark saved a select few.
How does your theology match up to Scripture? Is Christ the New Adam or New Noah?
RM:
I addressed this in my initial post (complete with Catholic Encyclopedia which I hope you actually read):
DLE:
To repeat what I said: Latria honor is given to God alone while hyperdulia is given to Mary. The latter honor is subordinate and dependent upon God. If Mary has any divine qualities or was divine herself, she would be given the same honor reserved for God but she’s not. Furthermore, the Church teaches that any creature/object given the honor reserved for God is idolatry.
*To say otherwise means that Church promoted the same thing it condemns, which isn’t even logical. If you believe that Mary is a Goddess, you will not find support in the Church. *
I’ll answer your question about Mary in the next post…
D
Dancelittleewok
Guest
To answer your assumption that Mary must be god-like to hear prayers: God is in Heaven. We know that God is infinite–meaning He has no limits. Time is a limit since we must live our lives in parts. Space is a limit because in order to be space, your parts are separated. Thus, God being infinite must exist in a place where there is no time or space; it’s not a looooooong time but no time, not bigger than space but no space can contain Him.
In short, Heaven isn’t the same as as here. Prayers aren’t the equivalent of calling your wife on a pay phone. Catholics believe that the saints are infused with sanctifying grace (i.e. “we are partakers of the divine nature”) and able to behold God fully in the Beatific Vision:
Heaven (See under “Supernatural character of heaven and beatific vision”)
God has given us qualities that He has Himself such as “made in the image of God” and “partakers of the divine nature” to name a few…
Y
YADA
Guest
Jesus prayed that we might be one … unified …
The great command is to spread the Gospel [Good News of Salvation] to every nation on earth, to every tongue, to all peoples …
We are the Church, the Body of Christ, united … united in faith, united in Christ, united by our baptism “in the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” …
Peter, the Rock upon which Jesus chose to build His [Jesus’] Church , the Prime Minister [read Isaiah] was instructed to strenghten his Brethren and also given the “Keys” to Open and Shut the Gates of Heaven … [and please don’t give me Revelation and Jesus holding the key - one who is deputed to open a door by the owner does not mean that the owner has given up their ownership or the “master key” as it were]. Peter was entrusted to Feed the People of God, the Lambs …
As for you rother objections: The Catholic Church lives and breaths Scripture. The Church is totally Christ centered, the Celebration of the Lord’s Supper is the source and summit of what it means to be Christian.
Jesus tells the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man with Abraham … the Rich Man is lost, unsaved, suffering. A man who lived long after Abraham, who could never have “seen” Abraham … he speaks with Abraham, petitions Abraham. Abraham not only hears him but he responds. In revelation we have the Saints and Martyrs. The Martyrs know that the final judgement is yet to come, they cry out for vindication and are given information regaring those still on earth. The Saints present to Jesus the prayers of those on earth [the imagery is bowls of incense - prayers rising like incense … ] Ditto for the Transfiguration, Peter James ands John recognized and heard Elijah and Moses … long dead and not their contemporaries …
Sorry, this thread runs 27 pages and I read every post before responding …
Your posts can be summed up as espousing: You have "studied the Bible and have the degrees, are open minded and let the scriptures speak to you throught he innspiration of the Holy Spirit - so your interpretation is right and the Catholic Church is wrong - though you admit you could be in error but not when you have determined that Catholics have it wrong … that you know better what Catholics do [deify Mary and worship her] then we do … And we should follow you [and your Christian Faith] not the Pope’s … because real thinking Christans could not believe what the Church teaches …
Here is a News Bulletin for you … I have a Master’s Degree in Patoral Ministry [not an online program] … Three years of classroom instruction including summers [and I have a family and I worked full time] … my professors faith traditions encompassed Protestant [not that I know the denomination of all of them but they included a Lutheran and a Presbyterian] as well as Catholic, all holding Doctorates with published works and one a renowned Dead Sea Scroll Scholar [yes he has actually worked with the Scrolls - reads, speaks ans translates biblical hebrew] … I read the scriptures, study the scriptures and reflect on the scriptures …
My personal opinion is that your understanding of the Scriptures is very thin, shallow and without scholarly rigor and most importantly lacks a spirituality - a oneness with Christ - a relationship with Jesus …
Your sense of history and the culture of the first century is almost non-existant.
I do not follow the Pope or belong to the Catholic faith because I am ‘told to’ by the Church, I was not born into the Catholic faith - I made a conscious decision to be a Christian and to follow in the faith of the Christians that walked with Jesus … the Apostles, the early Christians - an authentic unified faith …
Jesus said that we must eat His Flesh and drink His Blood to have Life.
Paul tells that to eat and drink the Bread that is Blessed and the Cup without discerning the Body and Blood is to eat and drink to our death … no mere symbol is implied in either passage … I will not take your intepretation - I made my own …
You are free to have your merely symbolic “Commuion” [a man-made tradition] …
I choose to gather and worship and receive Jesus in Scripture [Liturgy of the Word] and in Heavenly Food that gives Life [Liturgy of the Eucharist] -
The Mass - Uniquely given to us - A Gift to the People of God, the Church - a family meal, a celebration of the Gospel - the Good News of Salvation
Strengthened to go out to Serve God and our fellow man 
J
JustaServant
Guest
Wake up to what?
Seriously dude, you create a thread to ‘ask the pastor’, but you haven’t addressed anything head on, you just give terse answers and attack the Church.
When are peorple going to get the chance to ‘ask’ you something?
J
JustaServant
Guest
Slam dunk.Jesus prayed that we might be one … unified …
The great command is to spread the Gospel [Good News of Salvation] to every nation on earth, to every tongue, to all peoples …
We are the Church, the Body of Christ, united … united in faith, united in Christ, united by our baptism “in the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” …
Peter, the Rock upon which Jesus chose to build His [Jesus’] Church , the Prime Minister [read Isaiah] was instructed to strenghten his Brethren and also given the “Keys” to Open and Shut the Gates of Heaven … [and please don’t give me Revelation and Jesus holding the key - one who is deputed to open a door by the owner does not mean that the owner has given up their ownership or the “master key” as it were]. Peter was entrusted to Feed the People of God, the Lambs …
As for you rother objections: The Catholic Church lives and breaths Scripture. The Church is totally Christ centered, the Celebration of the Lord’s Supper is the source and summit of what it means to be Christian.
Jesus tells the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man with Abraham … the Rich Man is lost, unsaved, suffering. A man who lived long after Abraham, who could never have “seen” Abraham … he speaks with Abraham, petitions Abraham. Abraham not only hears him but he responds. In revelation we have the Saints and Martyrs. The Martyrs know that the final judgement is yet to come, they cry out for vindication and are given information regaring those still on earth. The Saints present to Jesus the prayers of those on earth [the imagery is bowls of incense - prayers rising like incense … ] Ditto for the Transfiguration, Peter James ands John recognized and heard Elijah and Moses … long dead and not their contemporaries …
Sorry, this thread runs 27 pages and I read every post before responding …
Your posts can be summed up as espousing: You have "studied the Bible and have the degrees, are open minded and let the scriptures speak to you throught he innspiration of the Holy Spirit - so your interpretation is right and the Catholic Church is wrong - though you admit you could be in error but not when you have determined that Catholics have it wrong … that you know better what Catholics do [deify Mary and worship her] then we do … And we should follow you [and your Christian Faith] not the Pope’s … because real thinking Christans could not believe what the Church teaches …
Here is a News Bulletin for you … I have a Master’s Degree in Patoral Ministry [not an online program] … Three years of classroom instruction including summers [and I have a family and I worked full time] … my professors faith traditions encompassed Protestant [not that I know the denomination of all of them but they included a Lutheran and a Presbyterian] as well as Catholic, all holding Doctorates with published works and one a renowned Dead Sea Scroll Scholar [yes he has actually worked with the Scrolls - reads, speaks ans translates biblical hebrew] … I read the scriptures, study the scriptures and reflect on the scriptures …
My personal opinion is that your understanding of the Scriptures is very thin, shallow and without scholarly rigor and most importantly lacks a spirituality - a oneness with Christ - a relationship with Jesus …
Your sense of history and the culture of the first century is almost non-existant.
I do not follow the Pope or belong to the Catholic faith because I am ‘told to’ by the Church, I was not born into the Catholic faith - I made a conscious decision to be a Christian and to follow in the faith of the Christians that walked with Jesus … the Apostles, the early Christians - an authentic unified faith …
Jesus said that we must eat His Flesh and drink His Blood to have Life.
Paul tells that to eat and drink the Bread that is Blessed and the Cup without discerning the Body and Blood is to eat and drink to our death … no mere symbol is implied in either passage … I will not take your intepretation - I made my own …
You are free to have your merely symbolic “Commuion” [a man-made tradition] …
I choose to gather and worship and receive Jesus in Scripture [Liturgy of the Word] and in Heavenly Food that gives Life [Liturgy of the Eucharist] -
The Mass - Uniquely given to us - A Gift to the People of God, the Church - a family meal, a celebration of the Gospel - the Good News of Salvation
J
JRKH
Guest
I agree with this except that reformissionary came here and asked a question(s). One cannot fault others for attempting to answer those questions.
In the end though these types of discussions just keep proving and re-proving to me how much we need the authority and the good offices of Holy Mother Church to settle such matters.
Peace
James
B
brb3
Guest
What’s your opinion on John MacArthur ?
As a teacher, evangelist, educator [Master’s Seminary]. Has he had an influence on your ministry ? Does it bother you he is so anti-Catholic ?
As a teacher, evangelist, educator [Master’s Seminary]. Has he had an influence on your ministry ? Does it bother you he is so anti-Catholic ?
J
JustaServant
Guest
Okay, I’m gonna try this again before I head off to the salt mines…I’m just a sucker for torture. 
Steve, you need a history lesson. So do some research and please 'splain:
**A Simple Timeline Proves the Early Church was Catholic **
One of the areas of Church history that has always fascinated me is the study of New Testament era chronology. Protestants act as if the Bible was written like a modern novel. Starting with Matthew on. However, the writing of the New Testament was not that cut and dry. As one puts together a timeline of Church history, including in that works written that are not included in the New Testament, one must reach a conclusion that the early Church was indeed Catholic. By the time the Gospel of John was written for example, the Church was already 50 years old (which forces a Catholic view of John 6). But more importantly, the Christians that lived at the time all have very Catholic views. Not a Baptist among them.I have concocted a timeline here deliberately within a 100 year period between the Resurrection of Christ to Justin Martyr (roughly 130 AD.) Think of it from World War 2 on. There are people still alive to remember the events.
I do not claim this timeline to be exact, but its pretty close:
c. 30-33 - The death and resurrection of Jesus
c. 35 - The conversion of Paul
40s or 50s - James c.
45-49 - Paul’s first missionary journey
Sometime between 48 and 58 - Paul writes Galatians
c. 50-53 - Paul’s second missionary journey
50s - Paul writes Titus
50s or 60s - Mark written (based on oral tradition set down by Peter).
50s or 60s - Matthew written
51 - Paul writes 1 and 2 Thessalonians
c. 53-57 - Paul’s third missionary journey
Spring of 55 - Paul writes 1 Corinthians
56 - Paul writes 2 Corinthians
c. 57 - Paul writes Romans
c. 60 - Paul writes Colossians, probably while in prison in Rome
c. 60 - Paul writes Philemon, probably while in prison in Rome
c. 60 - Paul writes Ephesians, probably while in prison in Rome
c. 61 - Paul writes Philippians, while in prison in Rome
Early 60s - Luke written
c. 60-70 - The Didache is written.
c. 62 - Paul is free
c. 62-64 - Luke writes Acts
c. 62-64 - Paul writes 1 Timothy July 18-19,
64 - The Great Fire of Rome. Emperor Nero blamed the Christians, and a great persecution ensued.
Mid 60s - 1 Peter written
c. 64-68 - Paul writes 2 Timothy from prison
c. 67-68 - 2 Peter
c. 68 - Hebrews is written June 9,
68 - The death of Nero. Sometime between the Great Fire of Rome and the death of Nero, both Peter and Paul were martyred.
c. 69 - Jude
70 - The Seige of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple
c. 70-80- The Epistle of Barnabus is written.
c. 85 - John written Late First Century - 1, 2, and 3 John
95- The Epistle of Clement is written…
c. 95-96 - John writes Revelation
c. 60-120- The writings of Papias (only fragments remain).
c. 105- The Epistles of Ignatius are written as he heads for Rome for execution.
c. 105-125- The Epistle of Polycarp is written.
c. 125-130- The Letter to Diognetus is written.
c. 125-130- The Epistle of Aristides is written.
c. 130- The Martyrdom of Polycarp is written.
c. 130-150- The Shepherd of Hermas is written.
c.100-165- The writings of Justin Martyr, much of it written in the 130s.
Steve, you need a history lesson. So do some research and please 'splain:
**A Simple Timeline Proves the Early Church was Catholic **
One of the areas of Church history that has always fascinated me is the study of New Testament era chronology. Protestants act as if the Bible was written like a modern novel. Starting with Matthew on. However, the writing of the New Testament was not that cut and dry. As one puts together a timeline of Church history, including in that works written that are not included in the New Testament, one must reach a conclusion that the early Church was indeed Catholic. By the time the Gospel of John was written for example, the Church was already 50 years old (which forces a Catholic view of John 6). But more importantly, the Christians that lived at the time all have very Catholic views. Not a Baptist among them.I have concocted a timeline here deliberately within a 100 year period between the Resurrection of Christ to Justin Martyr (roughly 130 AD.) Think of it from World War 2 on. There are people still alive to remember the events.
I do not claim this timeline to be exact, but its pretty close:
c. 30-33 - The death and resurrection of Jesus
c. 35 - The conversion of Paul
40s or 50s - James c.
45-49 - Paul’s first missionary journey
Sometime between 48 and 58 - Paul writes Galatians
c. 50-53 - Paul’s second missionary journey
50s - Paul writes Titus
50s or 60s - Mark written (based on oral tradition set down by Peter).
50s or 60s - Matthew written
51 - Paul writes 1 and 2 Thessalonians
c. 53-57 - Paul’s third missionary journey
Spring of 55 - Paul writes 1 Corinthians
56 - Paul writes 2 Corinthians
c. 57 - Paul writes Romans
c. 60 - Paul writes Colossians, probably while in prison in Rome
c. 60 - Paul writes Philemon, probably while in prison in Rome
c. 60 - Paul writes Ephesians, probably while in prison in Rome
c. 61 - Paul writes Philippians, while in prison in Rome
Early 60s - Luke written
c. 60-70 - The Didache is written.
c. 62 - Paul is free
c. 62-64 - Luke writes Acts
c. 62-64 - Paul writes 1 Timothy July 18-19,
64 - The Great Fire of Rome. Emperor Nero blamed the Christians, and a great persecution ensued.
Mid 60s - 1 Peter written
c. 64-68 - Paul writes 2 Timothy from prison
c. 67-68 - 2 Peter
c. 68 - Hebrews is written June 9,
68 - The death of Nero. Sometime between the Great Fire of Rome and the death of Nero, both Peter and Paul were martyred.
c. 69 - Jude
70 - The Seige of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple
c. 70-80- The Epistle of Barnabus is written.
c. 85 - John written Late First Century - 1, 2, and 3 John
95- The Epistle of Clement is written…
c. 95-96 - John writes Revelation
c. 60-120- The writings of Papias (only fragments remain).
c. 105- The Epistles of Ignatius are written as he heads for Rome for execution.
c. 105-125- The Epistle of Polycarp is written.
c. 125-130- The Letter to Diognetus is written.
c. 125-130- The Epistle of Aristides is written.
c. 130- The Martyrdom of Polycarp is written.
c. 130-150- The Shepherd of Hermas is written.
c.100-165- The writings of Justin Martyr, much of it written in the 130s.
J
JustaServant
Guest
So, lets see.
The Ressurection is now 70 years old, and here is what Ignatuis says about the Eucharist:
Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes
Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2-7:1.
. . . and are now ready to obey your bishop and clergy with undivided minds and to share in the one common breaking of bread – the medicine of immortality, and the sovereign remedy by which we escape death and live in Jesus Christ for evermore
Letter to the Ephesians 20.
And, oh dear…look at what the Didache says about Baptism:
After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. If you have no living water, then baptize in other water, and if you are not able in cold, then in warm. If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Before baptism, let the one baptizing and the one to be baptized fast, as also any others who are able. Command the one who is to be baptized to fast beforehand for one or two days
Didache 7:1.
And, oh, look what Clement of Rome has to say about Saved by Faith and Works, and Not Faith Alone:
“Seeing, therefore, that we are the portion of the Holy One, let us do all those things which pertain to holiness, avoiding all evil-speaking, all abominable and impure embraces, together with all drunkenness, seeking after change, all abominable lusts, detestable adultery, and execrable pride. ‘For God,’ saith [the Scripture], ‘resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble.’ Let us cleave, then, to those to whom grace has been given by God. Let us clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far off from all whispering and evil-speaking, being justified by our works, and not our words.”
Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, 30.
“For what reason was our father Abraham blessed? Was it not because he wrought righteousness and truth through faith?”
Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, 31.
“All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”
Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, 32.
Oh, and compare what Ignatuis says about the Eucharist:
Quote:
…the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ…
Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2-7:1.
to what John wrote in his Gospel just twenty years before:
Quote:
John 6 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
The Ressurection is now 70 years old, and here is what Ignatuis says about the Eucharist:
Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes
Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2-7:1.
. . . and are now ready to obey your bishop and clergy with undivided minds and to share in the one common breaking of bread – the medicine of immortality, and the sovereign remedy by which we escape death and live in Jesus Christ for evermore
Letter to the Ephesians 20.
And, oh dear…look at what the Didache says about Baptism:
After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. If you have no living water, then baptize in other water, and if you are not able in cold, then in warm. If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Before baptism, let the one baptizing and the one to be baptized fast, as also any others who are able. Command the one who is to be baptized to fast beforehand for one or two days
Didache 7:1.
And, oh, look what Clement of Rome has to say about Saved by Faith and Works, and Not Faith Alone:
“Seeing, therefore, that we are the portion of the Holy One, let us do all those things which pertain to holiness, avoiding all evil-speaking, all abominable and impure embraces, together with all drunkenness, seeking after change, all abominable lusts, detestable adultery, and execrable pride. ‘For God,’ saith [the Scripture], ‘resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble.’ Let us cleave, then, to those to whom grace has been given by God. Let us clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far off from all whispering and evil-speaking, being justified by our works, and not our words.”
Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, 30.
“For what reason was our father Abraham blessed? Was it not because he wrought righteousness and truth through faith?”
Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, 31.
“All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”
Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, 32.
Oh, and compare what Ignatuis says about the Eucharist:
Quote:
…the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ…
Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2-7:1.
to what John wrote in his Gospel just twenty years before:
Quote:
John 6 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
J
JustaServant
Guest
compare this verse Luke wrote in Acts:
Quote:
Acts 22:16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’
to this statement by Barnabus probably only a decade or so later:
Quote:
“Blessed are they who, placing their trust in the cross, have gone down into the water…we indeed descend into the water full of sins and defilement, but come up, bearing fruit in our heart, having the fear [of God] and trust in Jesus in our spirit.” (The Epistle of Barnabas, Chapter 11
Compare this verse Luke wrote in Acts:
Quote:
Acts 22:16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’
to this statement by Barnabus probably only a decade or so later:
Quote:
“Blessed are they who, placing their trust in the cross, have gone down into the water…we indeed descend into the water full of sins and defilement, but come up, bearing fruit in our heart, having the fear [of God] and trust in Jesus in our spirit.” (The Epistle of Barnabas, Chapter 11
Lets stick to the first 100 years.
Seventy years after the Resurrection we have Ignatius telling those he wrote to stay close to the Bishop, and denouncing those who rejected that the Eucharist was Body and Blood of Christ.
Sixty years after the Resurrection we have Clement writing Corinth exhorting them to reinstate a priest they had expelled (which they did). Clement was Bishop of Rome at the time.
Thirty years after the Resurrection (some scholars say twenty) we have the Didache telling us how to Baptize (including sprinkling if running water isn’t available), and telling of a need to reconcile before receiving the Eucharist so that the “sacrifice” (not memorial meal) may be pure.
In structure, sacrament, etc., the Church then was, as the Church now, Catholic.
Quote:
Acts 22:16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’
to this statement by Barnabus probably only a decade or so later:
Quote:
“Blessed are they who, placing their trust in the cross, have gone down into the water…we indeed descend into the water full of sins and defilement, but come up, bearing fruit in our heart, having the fear [of God] and trust in Jesus in our spirit.” (The Epistle of Barnabas, Chapter 11
Compare this verse Luke wrote in Acts:
Quote:
Acts 22:16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’
to this statement by Barnabus probably only a decade or so later:
Quote:
“Blessed are they who, placing their trust in the cross, have gone down into the water…we indeed descend into the water full of sins and defilement, but come up, bearing fruit in our heart, having the fear [of God] and trust in Jesus in our spirit.” (The Epistle of Barnabas, Chapter 11
Lets stick to the first 100 years.
Seventy years after the Resurrection we have Ignatius telling those he wrote to stay close to the Bishop, and denouncing those who rejected that the Eucharist was Body and Blood of Christ.
Sixty years after the Resurrection we have Clement writing Corinth exhorting them to reinstate a priest they had expelled (which they did). Clement was Bishop of Rome at the time.
Thirty years after the Resurrection (some scholars say twenty) we have the Didache telling us how to Baptize (including sprinkling if running water isn’t available), and telling of a need to reconcile before receiving the Eucharist so that the “sacrifice” (not memorial meal) may be pure.
In structure, sacrament, etc., the Church then was, as the Church now, Catholic.
R
RedBert
Guest
Early Church Evidence Refutes Real Presence
onefold.wordpress.com/early-church-evidence-refutes-real-presence/
There my be a format problem (depending on which browser you use) but you can follow it
re: Clement
one-fold.com/?page_id=58
R
RBK
Guest
Exactly, which is why no Catholic on this forum will ever be swayed by anything that the OP has to say. He speaks of the “historical” Christian faith, but has little to no knowledge of what early Christians taught or how they practiced their faith, or simply chooses to ignore the witness.
Tertullian, writing in 200 AD tells us how we can know the TRUE Church:
Moreover, if there be any [heresies] bold enough to plant themselves in the midst of the apostolic age, so that they might seem to have been handed down by the Apostles because they were from the time of the Apostles, we can say to them:** let them show the origin of their Churches, let them unroll the order of their bishops, running down in succession from the beginning, so that their first bishop shall have for author and predecessor some one of the Apostles or of the apostolic men who continued steadfast with the Apostles. For this is the way in which the apostolic Churches transmit their lists**: like the Church of the Smyrnaeans, which records that Polycarp was placed there by John; like the Church of the Romans where Clement was ordained by Peter. In just this same way the other Churches display those whom they have as sprouts from the apostolic seed, having been established in the episcopate by the Apostles. Let the heretics invent something like it. After their blasphemies, what could be unlawful for them? But even if they should contrive it, they will accomplish nothing; for their doctrine itself, when compared with that of the Apostles, will show by its own diversity and contrariety that it has for its author neither an Apostle nor an apostolic man. The Apostles would not have differed among themselves in teaching, nor would an apostolic man have taught contrary to the Apostles, unless those who were taught by the Apostles then preached otherwise.
Therefore, they will be challenged to meet this test even by those Churches which are of much later date – for they are being established daily – and whose founder is not from among the Apostles nor from among the apostolic men; for those which agree in the same faith are reckoned as apostolic on account of the blood ties in their doctrine. Then let all heresies prove how they regard themselves as apostolic, when they are challenged by our Churches to meet either test. But in fact they are not apostolic, nor can they prove themselves to be what they are not. Neither are they received in peace and communion by the Churches which are in any way apostolic, since on account of their diverse belief they are in no way apostolic (The Demurrer Against the Heretics 32:1 [A.D. 200]).
But let’s go back further…
"Indeed, when you submit to the bishop as you would to Jesus Christ, it is clear to me that you are living not in the manner of men but as Jesus Christ, who died for us, that through faith in his death you might escape dying. It is necessary, therefore—and such is your practice that you do nothing without the bishop, and that you be subject also to the presbytery, as to the apostles of Jesus Christ our hope, in whom we shall be found, if we live in him. It is necessary also that the deacons, the dispensers of the mysteries [sacraments] of Jesus Christ, be in every way pleasing to all men. For they are not the deacons of food and drink, but servants of the Church of God. They must therefore guard against blame as against fire. In like manner let everyone respect the deacons as they would respect Jesus Christ, and just as they respect the bishop as a type of the Father, and the presbyters as the council of God and college of the apostles. Without these, it cannot be called a church. (Letter to the Trallians 2:1–3 A.D. 110])
I don’t see Sola Scriptura here.
So please, unroll the order of your bishops, trace your church back to the Apostles. Oh wait, the Anabaptist movement began in the 16th century. Well, surely you can give us conclusive evidence that the “historical” church practiced 5 Pt. Calvinism and the 5 Solas? We all anxiously await that.
U
utunumsint
Guest
I don’t see any questions in the OP. The closest I can come to in determining his purpose here is that he wants to teach us about what he “beleives, sees, and thinks.”
My invitation to him would be to do precisely that, instead of spending so much time attacking doctrines that he does not believe in.
God bless,
Ut
L
LionHeart777
Guest
Perhaps my choice of proposed is not the best choice of words? These men are known as advocates of their respective positions (if my info is still correct.)
R
RBK
Guest
The Catholic commenters on this article handle it well, especially Thessalonian. The author says he spent “years” researching. The response takes little time. Why would any Catholic look to a protestant who lives 1,900 years after these men did to determine what they were thinking? How were the early Christians practicing their faith? What did they believe these men were saying? How could the Mass be called a sacrifice by so many if Jesus wasn’t made physically present? Ludicrous and sad…
J
JRKH
Guest
This is great.Okay, I’m gonna try this again before I head off to the salt mines…I’m just a sucker for torture.
Steve, you need a history lesson. So do some research and please 'splain:
**A Simple Timeline Proves the Early Church was Catholic **
One of the areas of Church history that has always fascinated me is the study of New Testament era chronology. Protestants act as if the Bible was written like a modern novel. Starting with Matthew on. However, the writing of the New Testament was not that cut and dry. As one puts together a timeline of Church history, including in that works written that are not included in the New Testament, one must reach a conclusion that the early Church was indeed Catholic. By the time the Gospel of John was written for example, the Church was already 50 years old (which forces a Catholic view of John 6). But more importantly, the Christians that lived at the time all have very Catholic views. Not a Baptist among them.I have concocted a timeline here deliberately within a 100 year period between the Resurrection of Christ to Justin Martyr (roughly 130 AD.) Think of it from World War 2 on. There are people still alive to remember the events.
I do not claim this timeline to be exact, but its pretty close:
If you don’t mind I am going to take the privilage of placing dates on this stemming from your reference point of the end of WW II. I think it will give a little better sense of “real time”. (Working with a crucifixtion date of 33)
c. 30-33 - The death and resurrection of Jesus (1945)
c. 35 - The conversion of Paul (1947)
40s or 50s - James c. (1950’s-1960’s)
45-49 - Paul’s first missionary journey (1957-61)
Sometime between 48 and 58 - Paul writes Galatians (1960 -1970)
c. 50-53 - Paul’s second missionary journey (1962-1965)
50s - Paul writes Titus (1960’s)
50s or 60s - Mark written (based on oral tradition set down by Peter). (1960’s - 70’s)
50s or 60s - Matthew written (1960’s - 70’s)
51 - Paul writes 1 and 2 Thessalonians (1963)
c. 53-57 - Paul’s third missionary journey (1965-1969)
Spring of 55 - Paul writes 1 Corinthians (1967)
56 - Paul writes 2 Corinthians (1968)
c. 57 - Paul writes Romans (1969)
c. 60 - Paul writes Colossians, probably while in prison in Rome (1972)
c. 60 - Paul writes Philemon, probably while in prison in Rome (1972)
c. 60 - Paul writes Ephesians, probably while in prison in Rome (1972)
c. 61 - Paul writes Philippians, while in prison in Rome (1973)
Early 60s - Luke written (1974-ish)
c. 60-70 - The Didache is written.(1977-ish)
c. 62 - Paul is free (1974)
c. 62-64 - Luke writes Acts (1974-1976)
c. 62-64 - Paul writes 1 Timothy July 18-19, (1974-1976)
64 - The Great Fire of Rome. Emperor Nero blamed the Christians, and a great persecution ensued. (1976)
Mid 60s - 1 Peter written (1977-ish)
c. 64-68 - Paul writes 2 Timothy from prison (1976-1970)
c. 67-68 - 2 Peter (1979-1981)
c. 68 - Hebrews is written June 9, (1981)
68 - The death of Nero. Sometime between the Great Fire of Rome and the death of Nero, both Peter and Paul were martyred. (1981)
c. 69 - Jude (1982)
70 - The Seige of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple (1983)
c. 70-80- The Epistle of Barnabus is written.(1983-1993)
c. 85 - John written Late First Century - 1, 2, and 3 John (1997)
95- The Epistle of Clement is written…(2007)
c. 95-96 - John writes Revelation (2007-2008)
…From this point the writings are still in the future…
But clearly reflect what was handed down from the past, both by Oral and written Tradition
c. 60-120- The writings of Papias (only fragments remain). (1972-2032)
c. 105- The Epistles of Ignatius are written as he heads for Rome for execution. (2017)
c. 105-125- The Epistle of Polycarp is written. (2017-2037)
c. 125-130- The Letter to Diognetus is written. (2037-2042)
c. 125-130- The Epistle of Aristides is written. (2037-2042)
c. 130- The Martyrdom of Polycarp is written. (2042)
c. 130-150- The Shepherd of Hermas is written. (2042-2062)
c.100-165- The writings of Justin Martyr, much of it written in the 130s. (2012-2077)
Peace
James
- Status