Ask A Buddhist

[SteveVH]

1. I am not saying that a Catholic should try to use Buddhist meditation to attain Nibbana or even believe in Nibbana. Rather, I am saying that a Catholic may use meditation to enjoy a measure of natural happiness that falls short of Nibbana and that this isn’t heretical. I am not advocating blending the religions together, but answering the question of whether or not a Catholic can practice Buddhist meditation without falling into heresy.

Heresy is would not be the correct term in this case. Heresy is a wrong interpretation and practice of Christian doctrine. It is supernatural happiness that we should be trying to obtain and that can only occur by being in union with God. Our meditation should be a meditation on God, not a means to escape the reality of the human condition. It seems to me that the purpose of Buddhist meditation is to escape suffering the natural world by arriving at a state of “nothingness”. True happiness is not the absence of suffering, but rather the presence of God even in the midst of suffering. So, our focus must always be on God and to change that focus to one of blissful nothingness is not heresy but rather sin because it is a focus upon ourselves rather than God.

 

[Bakmoon]

And also there is no way to can recognize any sinfull thoughts without the Grace of God. God is our everything.

But in Paragraph 1860 of the CCC, while discussing moral ignorance, it says “…no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man.” Knowledge of morality as part of the Deposit of Faith exists in addition to the knowledge of morality as known by natural revelation, and the presence of moral knowledge in natural revelation does not diminish, but underscores the knowledge of morality in the Deposit of Faith.

 

[Bakmoon]

I know what you are saying and I hate to sound like a bad record but HOW! In order to reach this peak and for it to work you cannot be attached to anyone or anything.

Read my post again on the part about attachment. Getting rid of attachment doesn’t mean getting rid of positive relationships and positive connections with others.

 

[Contarini]

Our meditation should be a meditation on God, not a means to escape the reality of the human condition.

But the purpose of Buddhist meditation is to make one fully aware of the reality of the human condition–to defeat the “escapes” that our minds have constructed.

Hence, it seems to be a proper and congenial preparation for grace.

It seems to me that the purpose of Buddhist meditation is to escape suffering the natural world by arriving at a state of “nothingness”.

Well, that doesn’t fit what I’ve read of Buddhism or what Buddhists themselves say.

I would imagine that you don’t like it when Protestants make judgments about Catholicism based on what “seems” to them to be the case rather than what Catholics themselves say they believe. Surely this is no more just when Catholics do it with regard to other religions?

So, our focus must always be on God and to change that focus to one of blissful nothingness is not heresy but rather sin because it is a focus upon ourselves rather than God.

It doesn’t make any sense to say that Buddhism focuses on the self, when the whole point is to recognize that you have no permanent self to focus on in the first place.

Edwin

 

[rinnie]

I bring the matter up because rinnie is holding to the position that one cannot use various natural (as opposed to supernatural) techniques along side grace to help resist sin and temptation. I am not arguing that these means are sufficient, but that they may be helpful to Catholics.

Okay, I will stand with this. And the reason is because in order to reach the peak or the purpose of this meditation (or as it said for it to work) you must not be attached to anyone or anything.

Why would any Catholic or Christian not want to be attached to God at all times. And good could it do you?

As my Dad taught me, when go is not the devil is there!

 

[rossum]

Really? There will be suffering in heaven?

Yes. Even in an eternal Christian-style heaven. Buddhist heavens are temporary, and so have the suffering of death. The Christian heaven manages to avoid that, but still contains suffering.

Here is the Buddha defining suffering, dukkha:

“Now this, monks, is the Noble Truth of dukkha: Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha.”

— Samyutta Nikaya 56.11

Notice, “separation from the loved” as a form of suffering. Who do Christians love? “Love your neighbour as yourself.” We can reasonably take it that Christians in heaven have followed this. Yet some of those people they love are separated from them in hell, being tortured for eternity. How can that not be suffering?

You are in an excellent restaurant being served a superb meal. Opposite you at your table is someone you love dearly, your son say, being tortured. As you eat your marvellous starter he is having electric shocks applied to sensitive areas. During the perfectly cooked main course he is being beaten with rubber hoses. While you are eating your delicious sweet, his fingernails are being pulled out one by one. How are you enjoying your meal?

rossum

 

[Bakmoon]

Heresy is would not be the correct term in this case. Heresy is a wrong interpretation and practice of Christian doctrine. It is supernatural happiness that we should be trying to obtain and that can only occur by being in union with God. Our meditation should be a meditation on God, not a means to escape the reality of the human condition. It seems to me that the purpose of Buddhist meditation is to escape suffering the natural world by arriving at a state of “nothingness”. True happiness is not the absence of suffering, but rather the presence of God even in the midst of suffering. So, our focus must always be on God and to change that focus to one of blissful nothingness is not heresy but rather sin because it is a focus upon ourselves rather than God.

1)Let me rephrase that then. I hold that it is not heretical to be of the opinion that a Catholic can practice some forms of Buddhist meditative practices to resist sin and temptation without in and of itself committing sin.

2)That does not mean that it is wrong to also use natural means to attain natural happiness in this life, however.

1. Buddhist meditation is not about escaping reality, but about confronting it head on through observation and analysis.

4)Nibbana is not taught to be nothingness by any means.

 

[Bakmoon]

Okay, I will stand with this. And the reason is because in order to reach the peak or the purpose of this meditation (or as it said for it to work) you must not be attached to anyone or anything.

Why would any Catholic or Christian not want to be attached to God at all times. And good could it do you?

As my Dad taught me, when go is not the devil is there!

You are grossly misusing the term attachment. It doen’t mean “being connected” but rather “being bound to by ignorance”.

 

[rinnie]

Read my post again on the part about attachment. Getting rid of attachment doesn’t mean getting rid of positive relationships and positive connections with others.

I can only tell you what I read. Was I given false information?

Is it true or false that You are to PURIFY YOURSELF of all desire, etc.

Is it true if you are attached to annow or anything you will never attain Nibbana?

Yes or No. If I was gven false information, I apologize.

 

[rinnie]

You are grossly misusing the term attachment. It doen’t mean “being connected” but rather “being bound to by ignorance”.

What does that mean? So you are saying your can still be attached to Christ the Almighty and attain Nibbana?

How are you to purify yourself? Are you not making yourself above God. Only God can purify us, by forgiving our sins by his Grace and mercy and death on the cross.

 

[notself]

What does that mean? So you are saying your can still be attached to Christ the Almighty and attain Nibbana?

How are you to purify yourself? Are you not making yourself above God. Only God can purify us, by forgiving our sins by his Grace and mercy and death on the cross.

Sometimes I wonder if you take the time to read and think about the posts of others. Did you miss the definition of attachment as it is used in the Buddhist sense of the word?

Attachment is defined as clinging through ignorance.

Are you clinging to Jesus through ignorance?

 

[rinnie]

Sometimes I wonder if you take the time to read and think about the posts of others. Did you miss the definition of attachment as it is used in the Buddhist sense of the word?

Attachment is defined as clinging through ignorance.

Are you clinging to Jesus through ignorance?

That is a very mean and disrepectful thing to say.

 

[notself]

That is a very mean and disrepectful thing to say.

I was explaining, once again, the meaning of “attachment”. I used Jesus in the example to make the point clear to you. It was not done in an attempt to show disrespect to you or to Jesus.

rinnie, You often post as though you haven’t read the posts of others or spent time thinking about what others say. The responses you receive are sincere and have been given in the attempt to make certain points.

I do appologize because my post was too short to make these points clear and because of this, I have hurt you. I am sorry.

 

[Contarini]

That is a very mean and disrepectful thing to say.

Not at all.

The point is that you aren’t bothering to figure out what Buddhists mean by the terms they use.

Notself didn’t say you were clinging to Jesus through ignorance. He was saying that if you aren’t doing that, then you aren’t “attached” to Jesus in the technical Buddhist sense.

I’m not satisfied with notself’s response, because as I understand the Buddhist position, holding Jesus to be an eternal being who personally saves all human beings, on whom we depend and who does not depend on us, is itself an expression of ignorance. At least, that’s one way Buddhists might see it. So Buddhists might say that our attachment to Jesus is indeed based on ignorance. (And I don’t think it helps to say that that’s “mean and disrespectful,” because that just ends meaningful debate–you believe some fairly disparaging things about Buddhism as well, but it isn’t “mean and disrespectful” of you to state your beliefs.) But in fact notself didn’t say that.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Yes. Even in an eternal Christian-style heaven. Buddhist heavens are temporary, and so have the suffering of death. The Christian heaven manages to avoid that, but still contains suffering.

Here is the Buddha defining suffering, dukkha:
“Now this, monks, is the Noble Truth of dukkha: Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha.”

— Samyutta Nikaya 56.11
Notice, “separation from the loved” as a form of suffering. Who do Christians love? “Love your neighbour as yourself.” We can reasonably take it that Christians in heaven have followed this. Yet some of those people they love are separated from them in hell, being tortured for eternity. How can that not be suffering?

You are in an excellent restaurant being served a superb meal. Opposite you at your table is someone you love dearly, your son say, being tortured. As you eat your marvellous starter he is having electric shocks applied to sensitive areas. During the perfectly cooked main course he is being beaten with rubber hoses. While you are eating your delicious sweet, his fingernails are being pulled out one by one. How are you enjoying your meal?

rossum

Rossum,

This is a serious objection–definitely one of the difficult issues in traditional Christian theology.

However, the Christian belief that there is no suffering in “heaven” (not really the best term, since it implies that our heaven is something like Buddhist temporary “heavens,” just eternal–as you seem to believe) is at least as fundamental as the belief in hell. I would say more so, in fact. If the two are in conflict, the belief in hell–at least in the sense of eternal torment–would be the one I’d abandon. And I think that’s true for many, perhaps most Christians.

There are several efforts Christians have made to avoid this difficulty–the most infamous one is that of Thomas Aquinas, who argued that since the sufferings of the damned are just they will not be a cause of sorrow to the glorified saints, but rather of joy–not in themselves but in the fact that they are an expression of God’s justice.

Like most people today, I find this unconvincing and even repellent.

Another suggestion is that of C. S. Lewis that the damned have ceased to be persons at all, and thus there is nothing left to sorrow for. Buddhist conceptions of the person may be helpful in understanding how this might work. But there are certainly many difficulties.

The easiest solution, of course, would be to say that everyone is saved. It seems incompatible with historic Christian orthodoxy to say that everyone will be saved, but not to hope for universal salvation as a possibility. That still leave the problem at least as a theoretical exercise, however.

Edwin

 

[Bakmoon]

I can only tell you what I read. Was I given false information?

Is it true or false that You are to PURIFY YOURSELF of all desire, etc.

Is it true if you are attached to annow or anything you will never attain Nibbana?

Yes or No. If I was gven false information, I apologize.

In Buddhist circles the words “desire” and “attatchment” are used as technical terms with meanings that are different from their every day meaning because they are being used to translate Pali words with no real English equivalents. I think it is more likely you came across accurate sources that were aimed at Buddhists who already understood this difference in terminology, and so were unable to tell the technical meaning of these words.

In answer to your question, the answer is yes if by desire you mean Tanha and by attachment you mean Upadana. If you are using the terms desire and attachment in their usual English sense, then the answer is no, it is not true.

 

[Bakmoon]

What does that mean? So you are saying your can still be attached to Christ the Almighty and attain Nibbana?

You are moving the discussion beyond the parameters of the original issue of whether or not a Catholic can safely practice Buddhist meditation. I am not saying that a Catholic should throw themselves into meditation totally for the purpose of attaining Nibbana, but rather that they can use the techniques to gain some happiness in the here and now that is distinct from Nibbana. It is an unrelated question as to if a believer in Jesus could attain Nibbana.

 

[rinnie]

Sometimes I wonder if you take the time to read and think about the posts of others. Did you miss the definition of attachment as it is used in the Buddhist sense of the word?

Attachment is defined as clinging through ignorance.

Are you clinging to Jesus through ignorance?

I know what you are saying and I don’t agree with it at all. Nothing about meditation make sense to me.

How can this meditation help us at all. It still comes back to us using our own way of removing something from our mind or controlling something on our own. Its not possible.

God is from to empy us of anything that holds us back or draw us completely into him.

But this is a free gift from God from his Grace, I don’t know how much easier I can explain this.

You are using this method strictly on your own effort.

You are saying that YOU can get rid of these thoughts or desires or whatever it is that you want to rid yourself of. You can’t!

All things are done by the grace of God. If you pray for it, and God wills it, It will be done.

Thy kingdom come THY WILL BE DONE on EARTH as IT IS in heaven.

This is what the RCC says.

Christian Prayer FLEES from impersonal teachniques or from concentrating on ONESELF which can create a kind of rut, imprisoning the person praying in a spiritual pritvatism which is incapable of a free penness to the transcendent God.

 

[rinnie]

You are moving the discussion beyond the parameters of the original issue of whether or not a Catholic can safely practice Buddhist meditation. I am not saying that a Catholic should throw themselves into meditation totally for the purpose of attaining Nibbana, but rather that they can use the techniques to gain some happiness in the here and now that is distinct from Nibbana. It is an unrelated question as to if a believer in Jesus could attain Nibbana.

Nope! We are taught to pray the way Jesus taught us.

Here is something everyone should think about.

People looking for a quick way of finding God are Likely to run into TWO tempations. To take a nebative view of the material world, and to think Contemplation is something they can attain ALL BY THEMSELVES.

Sound familliar!

 

[rinnie]

Yes. Even in an eternal Christian-style heaven. Buddhist heavens are temporary, and so have the suffering of death. The Christian heaven manages to avoid that, but still contains suffering.

Here is the Buddha defining suffering, dukkha:

“Now this, monks, is the Noble Truth of dukkha: Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha.”

— Samyutta Nikaya 56.11

Notice, “separation from the loved” as a form of suffering. Who do Christians love? “Love your neighbour as yourself.” We can reasonably take it that Christians in heaven have followed this. Yet some of those people they love are separated from them in hell, being tortured for eternity. How can that not be suffering?

You are in an excellent restaurant being served a superb meal. Opposite you at your table is someone you love dearly, your son say, being tortured. As you eat your marvellous starter he is having electric shocks applied to sensitive areas. During the perfectly cooked main course he is being beaten with rubber hoses. While you are eating your delicious sweet, his fingernails are being pulled out one by one. How are you enjoying your meal?

rossum

Where in the world was it ever said that the Christian heaven contains suffering? Where?