Ask A Buddhist

[Contarini]

I know what you are saying and I don’t agree with it at all. Nothing about meditation make sense to me.

How can this meditation help us at all. It still comes back to us using our own way of removing something from our mind or controlling something on our own. Its not possible.

God is from to empy us of anything that holds us back or draw us completely into him.

But this is a free gift from God from his Grace, I don’t know how much easier I can explain this.

You are using this method strictly on your own effort.

You are saying that YOU can get rid of these thoughts or desires or whatever it is that you want to rid yourself of. You can’t!

All things are done by the grace of God. If you pray for it, and God wills it, It will be done.

Thy kingdom come THY WILL BE DONE on EARTH as IT IS in heaven.

Rinnie, yet again you’re creating a false dichotomy–all our effort or all grace.

That’s not the Catholic teaching as I understand it.

This is a subject I know something about because I study the Reformation. This was precisely one of the issues between Catholicism and Protestantism–the Catholic Church was concerned (perhaps not entirely understanding the Protestant position) that Protestants were denying the role of the human will in salvation.

This is what the RCC says.

Christian Prayer FLEES from impersonal teachniques or from concentrating on ONESELF which can create a kind of rut, imprisoning the person praying in a spiritual pritvatism which is incapable of a free penness to the transcendent God.

This is a document of the CDF on Christian meditation, issued in 1989. It’s a document with considerable authority, but it was issued by a Vatican congregation, not the Pope or a Council directly.

More to the point, one can question the document’s understanding of Buddhism. Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict), who wrote the document, is a wise and learned man, but an understanding of Buddhism is not one of his many intellectual strengths.

The point of Buddhist meditation is to break up the false sense of “ego” which imprisons you. What the document is condemning is certainly something Christian prayer should flee from, but one can question whether it is actually describing Buddhist meditation correctly.

Also, there are two issues that need to be kept separate:

1. Whether Buddhist meditation techniques can be accepted *as Christian prayer; *or
2. Whether they are useful as “ancillary disciplines” that help prepare one for prayer and/or for the practice of Christian virtue, or even just help calm and focus the mind.

I am not entirely convinced that the answer to either question is “no”; but I’m a lot more dubious about the first than about the second.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Where in the world was it ever said that the Christian heaven contains suffering? Where?

Rinnie,

You really do need to follow an argument before responding to a post.

I fail in this regard as well–I had written part of a response to the first part of rossum’s post before I actually read the rest of the post and realized where he was going. I had to scrap my post and start again.

Edwin

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie,

You really do need to follow an argument before responding to a post.

I fail in this regard as well–I had written part of a response to the first part of rossum’s post before I actually read the rest of the post and realized where he was going. I had to scrap my post and start again.

Edwin

I did this time Edwin I swear. He said there is suffering in heaven, Then he tried to prove his point. But it all goes against the teaching of the Church. No matter how he tries to prove his point it is a false statement.

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie, yet again you’re creating a false dichotomy–all our effort or all grace.

That’s not the Catholic teaching as I understand it.

This is a subject I know something about because I study the Reformation. This was precisely one of the issues between Catholicism and Protestantism–the Catholic Church was concerned (perhaps not entirely understanding the Protestant position) that Protestants were denying the role of the human will in salvation.

This is a document of the CDF on Christian meditation, issued in 1989. It’s a document with considerable authority, but it was issued by a Vatican congregation, not the Pope or a Council directly.

More to the point, one can question the document’s understanding of Buddhism. Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict), who wrote the document, is a wise and learned man, but an understanding of Buddhism is not one of his many intellectual strengths.

The point of Buddhist meditation is to break up the false sense of “ego” which imprisons you. What the document is condemning is certainly something Christian prayer should flee from, but one can question whether it is actually describing Buddhist meditation correctly.

Also, there are two issues that need to be kept separate:

1. Whether Buddhist meditation techniques can be accepted *as Christian prayer; *or
2. Whether they are useful as “ancillary disciplines” that help prepare one for prayer and/or for the practice of Christian virtue, or even just help calm and focus the mind.

I am not entirely convinced that the answer to either question is “no”; but I’m a lot more dubious about the first than about the second.

Edwin

I understand Edwin and I don’t agree with either. Actually we are even told to stay away from Yoga.

 

[rinnie]

In 1997 The Pope said Buddhism is a spiritual self-absorption witout religious obligations.

I don’t see where that was recanted. If so I would like to see it.

And Pope John Paul ll saw it as a negative.

 

[rinnie]

But in Paragraph 1860 of the CCC, while discussing moral ignorance, it says “…no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man.” Knowledge of morality as part of the Deposit of Faith exists in addition to the knowledge of morality as known by natural revelation, and the presence of moral knowledge in natural revelation does not diminish, but underscores the knowledge of morality in the Deposit of Faith.

:What does unintention ignorance making venial sin not mortal sin? I have been saying this all along?

I told you this, venial sin weakens charity can lead to mortal sin.

If you do not know any better and you commit and sin and are not aware of it, How could God hold you responsible?

On the same token you know what is right from wrong in your heart.

 

[Contarini]

In 1997 The Pope said Buddhism is a spiritual self-absorption witout religious obligations.

I don’t see where that was recanted. If so I would like to see it.

And Pope John Paul ll saw it as a negative.

Rinnie, these kinds of statements are not covered by the charism of infallibility, and I am not convinced that they have any particular authority at all.

The Pope was promised the assistance of the Holy Spirit in defending and preserving the deposit of faith, not in accurately analyzing the beliefs of other religions.

Both JPII and the present Pope have said some unfortunate things about Buddhism, it seems to me. Their doctrinal concerns are entirely valid and what they are saying about Christianity is true, but that doesn’t make their understanding of Buddhism correct.

One of the huge problems in the Western Christian response to Eastern religions in the past century has been that we respond to watered-down, muddled, cheap Western ripoffs of the Eastern religions instead of the most profound and serious expressions of those religions.

This is the big problem with Chesterton on Eastern religions, whom unfortunately many Catholics quote uncritically.

One particularly odd example is Chesterton’s claim that Christianity is superior to Eastern religions because Christianity has paradoxes and mysticism while Eastern religions have “logic.”

This is of course exactly the opposite of the charge usually made on this forum that Buddhism is illogical!

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

I understand Edwin and I don’t agree with either. Actually we are even told to stay away from Yoga.

Told by whom?

 

[Contarini]

I did this time Edwin I swear. He said there is suffering in heaven, Then he tried to prove his point. But it all goes against the teaching of the Church. No matter how he tries to prove his point it is a false statement.

He’s making an argument by implication.

His point is that the suffering of the damned must affect the happiness of the saved. This is a common objection.

My response, as you may have seen, is that the perfect happiness of the saved is a basic tenet of Christianity, perhaps even more fundamental than belief in hell. So I agree with you that his argument doesn’t work–but it’s a provocative way of saying that there’s a basic contradiction between what we believe about heaven and what we traditionally believe about hell.

Edwin

 

[Bakmoon]

Also, there are two issues that need to be kept separate:

1. Whether Buddhist meditation techniques can be accepted *as Christian prayer; *or
2. Whether they are useful as “ancillary disciplines” that help prepare one for prayer and/or for the practice of Christian virtue, or even just help calm and focus the mind.

I am not entirely convinced that the answer to either question is “no”; but I’m a lot more dubious about the first than about the second.

Edwin

Actually, I am holding also to an even weaker position that would look like this:

1. Whether they are an acceptable means of contributing towards natural happiness in this life as distinct from the supernatural happiness which comes by Grace alone.

 

[Bakmoon]

In 1997 The Pope said Buddhism is a spiritual self-absorption witout religious obligations.

I don’t see where that was recanted. If so I would like to see it.

And Pope John Paul ll saw it as a negative.

But the Pope probably didn’t have a knowledge of primary sources on Buddhism, so I don’t see how that has any bearing on the situation.

Plus, that was said in one of his personal books, not in his magisterial authority as Head of the Catholic Church like bulls and encyclicals are, so that doesn’t make it the official position of the Church.

 

[Bakmoon]

:What does unintention ignorance making venial sin not mortal sin? I have been saying this all along?

I told you this, venial sin weakens charity can lead to mortal sin.

If you do not know any better and you commit and sin and are not aware of it, How could God hold you responsible?

On the same token you know what is right from wrong in your heart.

Pay attention to context. I was quoting the Catechism to show that basic moral principles are part of natural revelation in response to your holding that “… there is no way to can recognize any sinful thoughts without the Grace of God.” I wasn’t quoting in the context of our discussion of venial sin.

Also, your position on venial sin isn’t taught in the Catechism. You hold that the unintentional arising of thoughts of lust is a venial sin, arguing on the basis that the Catechism teaches that what would be a mortal sin that is “…without full knowledge or without complete consent” (CCC 1862) is venial sin. However, the CCC only says “…without complete consent.” Saying that this means that what would be mortal sin but involves no consent is venial sin simply does not follow.

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie, these kinds of statements are not covered by the charism of infallibility, and I am not convinced that they have any particular authority at all.

The Pope was promised the assistance of the Holy Spirit in defending and preserving the deposit of faith, not in accurately analyzing the beliefs of other religions.

Both JPII and the present Pope have said some unfortunate things about Buddhism, it seems to me. Their doctrinal concerns are entirely valid and what they are saying about Christianity is true, but that doesn’t make their understanding of Buddhism correct.

One of the huge problems in the Western Christian response to Eastern religions in the past century has been that we respond to watered-down, muddled, cheap Western ripoffs of the Eastern religions instead of the most profound and serious expressions of those religions.

This is the big problem with Chesterton on Eastern religions, whom unfortunately many Catholics quote uncritically.

One particularly odd example is Chesterton’s claim that Christianity is superior to Eastern religions because Christianity has paradoxes and mysticism while Eastern religions have “logic.”

This is of course exactly the opposite of the charge usually made on this forum that Buddhism is illogical!

Edwin

In my faith they do. The Pope has the right to teach us on matters of faith and morals. WE respect what they tell us.

 

[Contarini]

In my faith they do. The Pope has the right to teach us on matters of faith and morals. WE respect what they tell us.

Rinnie, I know what the Catholic Church teaches on this point.

Can you show me your support in official Catholic teaching for the idea that Popes have authority to interpret the teachings of other religions? That’s not covered by faith and morals, it seems to me.

And as Bakmoon mentioned, the statement by JPII wasn’t even in something he said in an official capacity.

Edwin

 

[rinnie]

Told by whom?

Go to Catholiceducation.org. Father John Handon S. J. has alot to say on this.

Also the Catholic magazine The Rock has a great article.

 

[notself]

=rinnie;9572402]In 1997 The Pope said Buddhism is a spiritual self-absorption witout religious obligations.

It appears from the quote above that the Pope does not understand the purposes of Buddhist meditation. Perhaps it would be easier if we stopped calling it Buddhist and just thought of it as meditation. Heck, let’s stop calling it mediation and start calling it focus or concentration. Let’s talk about focus on the breath.

One of the purposes of focus on the breath is to train the brain in concentration.

If one sits perfectly still in a quiet room, one notices the jumble of thoughts that come and go. Focus on the breath helps quiets these thoughts. At this point, once everyday thoughts are quieted, one could say the Rosary or the Jesus Prayer with fuller concentration and focus.

Another purpose of meditation is to analyze the concept of self. Through this analysis one understand that “self” is a mental construct but not a real thing. This type of meditation reduces self absorption.

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie, I know what the Catholic Church teaches on this point.

Can you show me your support in official Catholic teaching for the idea that Popes have authority to interpret the teachings of other religions? That’s not covered by faith and morals, it seems to me.

And as Bakmoon mentioned, the statement by JPII wasn’t even in something he said in an official capacity.

Edwin

The Pope knows what these religions teach and what they do not teach. It is thier job to show us what agrees and what disagrees with our faith.

What do you feel that they have said that is not true?

The Vatican Council 11 tells us that It has a hgh regard for the…which I quoted before or read the Vat. Council ll.

To cut to the chase, Yet it proclaims and is BOUND to prclaim without fail it is Christ who is the way the truth and the life.

 

[notself]

rinnie,

See my post just above yours. Our posts crossed and I think mine answers your question.

 

[rinnie]

It appears from the quote above that the Pope does not understand the purposes of Buddhist meditation. Perhaps it would be easier if we stopped calling it Buddhist and just thought of it as meditation. Heck, let’s stop calling it mediation and start calling it focus or concentration. Let’s talk about focus on the breath.

One of the purposes of focus on the breath is to train the brain in concentration.

If one sits perfectly still in a quiet room, one notices the jumble of thoughts that come and go. Focus on the breath helps quiets these thoughts. At this point, once everyday thoughts are quieted, one could say the Rosary or the Jesus Prayer with fuller concentration and focus.

Another purpose of meditation is to analyze the concept of self. Through this analysis one understand that “self” is a mental construct but not a real thing. This type of meditation reduces self absorption.

Lets not! Lets get back to the Catholic faith and lets focus on Christ. We can get so much more out of or focus on Christ then any breathing. If our brain needs some training in concentration I am sure the good Lord will take care of it.

 

[rinnie]

It appears from the quote above that the Pope does not understand the purposes of Buddhist meditation. Perhaps it would be easier if we stopped calling it Buddhist and just thought of it as meditation. Heck, let’s stop calling it mediation and start calling it focus or concentration. Let’s talk about focus on the breath.

One of the purposes of focus on the breath is to train the brain in concentration.

If one sits perfectly still in a quiet room, one notices the jumble of thoughts that come and go. Focus on the breath helps quiets these thoughts. At this point, once everyday thoughts are quieted, one could say the Rosary or the Jesus Prayer with fuller concentration and focus.

Another purpose of meditation is to analyze the concept of self. Through this analysis one understand that “self” is a mental construct but not a real thing. This type of meditation reduces self absorption.

What makes you feel the Pope does not understand the purpose of Buddhist meditation?

What makes you feel you know more then the Pope? Just wondering is all!

See here is my problem you are saying one could focus on the Jesus Prayer with fuller concentration or focus. How many times do I have to tell you that you are not going to do anything without the Grace granted to you by God.

If you pray and truly want to focus on God if he gives you the grace you will. If not, you are out. I think we are at a strong crossroads and its foolish for us to go any further.

You still believe you have the power to do something by yourself. Its not going to happen without the grace of God. In my mind anyway.

So as my Dad says we are beating a dead horse here.

I have a DUTY to witness my own faith, the way of life Christ taught me. Buddha isn’t in the plan or his teaching.

Buddha left some saying’s. Words. Jesus left me eternal life, eternal bread from heaven, when I can eat and live forever.

Budda never said I AM THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE. Jesus did. God Bless!