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InJesusItrust
Guest
There is no suffering when experiencing the beatific vision. It is the presence of God that makes heaven perfect.
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notself
Guest
I gave you the reasons that I believe the Pope doesn’t understand the purpose of Buddhist meditation in my post.What makes you feel the Pope does not understand the purpose of Buddhist meditation?
What makes you feel you know more then the Pope? Just wondering is all!
I do know more about Buddhism than the Pope does. I have been studying the suttas in depth and have been practicing for over 15 years.
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Bakmoon
Guest
You think that relaxation exercises prior to prayer to help one pray more clearly is wrong? And why do you seem to be of the opinion that everything that is helpful has been revealed as part of the Deposit of Faith?Lets not!
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Bakmoon
Guest
We are talking about Catholics practicing Buddhist meditation, not Buddhists! And why do you keep creating a false dichotomy between the works of Grace and the works of the will? Grace and the will are supposed to act together. It’s not an either/or.What makes you feel the Pope does not understand the purpose of Buddhist meditation?
What makes you feel you know more then the Pope? Just wondering is all!
See here is my problem you are saying one could focus on the Jesus Prayer with fuller concentration or focus. How many times do I have to tell you that you are not going to do anything without the Grace granted to you by God.
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Bakmoon
Guest
Just one more thing. This position was officially condemned by the Church. In 1713 Pope Clement XI issued the Apostolic Constitution Unigenitus which condemned the statement (Among others) that:
"The grace of Jesus Christ, which is the efficacious principle of every kind of good, is necessary for every good work; without it, not only is nothing done, but nothing can be done. "
The Bull condemned whole list of propositions (of which the above is only one) as being:
“false, captious, evil-sounding, offensive to pious ears, scandalous, pernicious, rash, injurious to the Church and her practice, insulting not only to the Church but also the secular powers seditious, impious, blasphemous, suspected of heresy, and smacking of heresy itself, and, besides, favoring heretics and heresies, and also schisms, erroneous, close to heresy, many times condemned, and finally heretical, clearly renewing many heresies respectively and most especially those which are contained in the infamous propositions of Jansen, and indeed accepted in that sense in which these have been condemned.”
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rossum
Guest
It contains suffering in the compassionate hearts of those who are there. Read my post again, and also read Contarini 's response at #614.Where in the world was it ever said that the Christian heaven contains suffering? Where?
rossum
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rinnie
Guest
I have no idea what you are talking about.
Rev. Look here God lives among human beings and he will make is home among them they will be his People and he will be their God. God with them He will wip away every tear from their eyes, there wil be no death, no more mourning or sadness or pain. The world of the past has gone.
Now how can that be suffering of compassionate hearts when there is no sadness or pain?
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rinnie
Guest
Oh! Now you know more then the Pope’s? I am told to follow them not you. Sorry.
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rinnie
Guest
Huh?
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notself
Guest
Would it be more accurate to say that the suffering of others causes compassion to arise in the heart of those in heaven?
Compassion is the sympathetic awareness of the suffering of others. If Saints could not feel compassion, then prayer to Saints would be without effect.
If one feel some sense of identification in the suffering of others as part of the feelings of compassion, one could construe this as suffering.
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rinnie
Guest
If you want to get into grace and faith and works I will be happy to join youl! Make another thread and I will be there as soon as I can.
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rinnie
Guest
Nope There is no suffering in heaven.
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Bakmoon
Guest
It belongs on this thread, because you are using the claim that man cannot resist sin at all through his own will as a criticism of why Buddhist meditation can’t be used to fight sin and temptation. You have repeated your claim several times now, and it is fairly important to your argument.
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Vouthon
Guest
I saw Rinnie mention something that Blessed Pope John Paul II (allegedly) said regarding Buddhism. I was wondering if Rinnie could provide us with a source for this?
For I do have a fully sourced reference which the Pope made to Buddhism on an official papal visit to Thailand and it was most complementary (I pm’ed this to Notself a few days ago when we were having discussions):
John Paul II said of Buddhism to Thai Catholics:
"…You find yourselves in a world where the majority of your fellow citizens embrace Buddhism, that complex of religious beliefs and philosophical ideas which is rooted in Thai history, culture and psychology, and which profoundly influences your identity as a nation…As people of Thailand you are heirs of the ancient and venerable wisdom contained therein.
How can you as Christians, members of the Catholic Church, who recognize Christ as the Saviour of the world, respond to Christ’s call of discipleship, living, as you do, immersed in a religious environment different from your own?
Sacred Scripture gives insights for an answer to this question. The second reading from the Letter of Saint James speaks of an earthly wisdom which is opposed to “the wisdom from above”, which is pure, peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, without uncertainty or insincerity. Your cultural heritage as Thai people is intimately linked to the indigenous Buddhist tradition, which provides a fertile terrain…In the practice of Buddhism can be discerned a noble tendency to strive to separate oneself from an “earthly wisdom”, in order to discover and achieve an interior purification and liberation. This aim is pursued through prayer and meditation, coupled with the practice of moral virtue. As the Second Vatican Council so clearly pointed out, the Church looks with sincere respect upon the religious wisdom contained in non-Christian traditions and rejects nothing that is true or holy in them…Here too, as people who are enriched by the Buddhist tradition of your country, you are endowed with a special sensitivity to the renunciation of violence in the vindication of personal rights, and so the Lord’s injunction to be peacemakers strikes a resonant chord in your minds and hearts, helping you not to fall victim to the many temptations to violence that haunt the world…"
- POPE JOHN PAUL II (Homily) National Stadium of Bangkok (Thailand) Thursday, 10 May 1984
There are a lot of people out there - I’ve noticed - who take one single paragraph written by the Pope in which he is claimed to have referred to Buddhism “as largely an atheist system” and miscontrue this, blowing it all out of proportion. This is obviously to make it appear as if the Pope had a largely negative view of Buddhism, which is just patently untrue and unfair to him - especially since Buddhism was spoken of very favourably by the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council to which the Pope pledged his utmost allegiance.
I do not know if this is the same as the one referred to by Rinnie for which I see no reference or direct quote but if it then I can asure you that it is completely taken out of context.
We must always balance statement of popes with other statements made by them.
For I do have a fully sourced reference which the Pope made to Buddhism on an official papal visit to Thailand and it was most complementary (I pm’ed this to Notself a few days ago when we were having discussions):
John Paul II said of Buddhism to Thai Catholics:
"…You find yourselves in a world where the majority of your fellow citizens embrace Buddhism, that complex of religious beliefs and philosophical ideas which is rooted in Thai history, culture and psychology, and which profoundly influences your identity as a nation…As people of Thailand you are heirs of the ancient and venerable wisdom contained therein.
How can you as Christians, members of the Catholic Church, who recognize Christ as the Saviour of the world, respond to Christ’s call of discipleship, living, as you do, immersed in a religious environment different from your own?
Sacred Scripture gives insights for an answer to this question. The second reading from the Letter of Saint James speaks of an earthly wisdom which is opposed to “the wisdom from above”, which is pure, peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, without uncertainty or insincerity. Your cultural heritage as Thai people is intimately linked to the indigenous Buddhist tradition, which provides a fertile terrain…In the practice of Buddhism can be discerned a noble tendency to strive to separate oneself from an “earthly wisdom”, in order to discover and achieve an interior purification and liberation. This aim is pursued through prayer and meditation, coupled with the practice of moral virtue. As the Second Vatican Council so clearly pointed out, the Church looks with sincere respect upon the religious wisdom contained in non-Christian traditions and rejects nothing that is true or holy in them…Here too, as people who are enriched by the Buddhist tradition of your country, you are endowed with a special sensitivity to the renunciation of violence in the vindication of personal rights, and so the Lord’s injunction to be peacemakers strikes a resonant chord in your minds and hearts, helping you not to fall victim to the many temptations to violence that haunt the world…"
- POPE JOHN PAUL II (Homily) National Stadium of Bangkok (Thailand) Thursday, 10 May 1984
There are a lot of people out there - I’ve noticed - who take one single paragraph written by the Pope in which he is claimed to have referred to Buddhism “as largely an atheist system” and miscontrue this, blowing it all out of proportion. This is obviously to make it appear as if the Pope had a largely negative view of Buddhism, which is just patently untrue and unfair to him - especially since Buddhism was spoken of very favourably by the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council to which the Pope pledged his utmost allegiance.
I do not know if this is the same as the one referred to by Rinnie for which I see no reference or direct quote but if it then I can asure you that it is completely taken out of context.
We must always balance statement of popes with other statements made by them.
V
Vouthon
Guest
Pope Benedict XVI was mentioned earlier, well here are his views
"…**Interviewer: **
*John Paul II in his talk before the United Nations in New York in 1995 on the foundations of a new world order, also spoke of a new hope for the Third Millenium. “We shall see,” said the Pope, “that the tears of this century have prepared the ground for a new springtime of the human spirit”. What might he mean by this “springtime”? A new identity of man? *
**Pope Benedict XVI: **
The Pope does indeed cherish a great expectation that the millenium of divisions will be followed by a millenium of unifications…The emergence of ecumenism at the Second Vatican Council is indeed a sign of a sort of renewed approach to a new unity. It is thus filled with the hope that the millenia have their physiognomy; that all the catastrophes of our century, as the Pope says, will be caught up at the end and turned into a new beginning. Unity of mankind, unity of religions, unity of Christians - we ought to search for these unities again, so that a more positive epoch may really begin. We must have visions…In the history and universe of religions, there is always a great necessity to purify religion so that it does not become an obstacle to the right relation to God but puts man on the right path…In all religions there are men of interior purity who through their myths and beliefs somehow touch the great mystery and find the right way of being human.
**Interviewer: **
*How many ways are there to God? *
**Pope Benedict XVI: **
As many ways as there are people. For even within the same faith each man’s way is an entirely personal one. In that respect there is ultimately one way, and everyone who is on the way to God is therefore in some sense also on the way to Jesus Christ. But this does not mean that all ways are identical in terms of conciousness and will but on the contrary, the one way is so big that it becomes a personal way for each man…We have so much knowledge, so many experiences, and on the other hand we find that faith has been so elaborated upon and oversystematized that access is no longer so easy to come by. I do think that we need a sort of revolution of faith in many respects…There is a new awareness of solidarity, of responsibility for humanity as a whole, of responsibility for creation. There are movements towards unification…The dialogue with other religions is under way. We are, I think, all convinced that we can learn something, for example, from the mysticism of Asia and that precisely the great mystical traditions also open possibilities of encounter…The Christian can also find the secret working of God behind them. Through the other religions God touches man and brings him onto the path. But it is always the same God, the God of Jesus Christ…"
- Pope Benedict XVI, Salt of the Earth (1997 when still Cardinal Ratzinger, republished in 2005 as by the pope)
"…**Interviewer: **
*John Paul II in his talk before the United Nations in New York in 1995 on the foundations of a new world order, also spoke of a new hope for the Third Millenium. “We shall see,” said the Pope, “that the tears of this century have prepared the ground for a new springtime of the human spirit”. What might he mean by this “springtime”? A new identity of man? *
**Pope Benedict XVI: **
The Pope does indeed cherish a great expectation that the millenium of divisions will be followed by a millenium of unifications…The emergence of ecumenism at the Second Vatican Council is indeed a sign of a sort of renewed approach to a new unity. It is thus filled with the hope that the millenia have their physiognomy; that all the catastrophes of our century, as the Pope says, will be caught up at the end and turned into a new beginning. Unity of mankind, unity of religions, unity of Christians - we ought to search for these unities again, so that a more positive epoch may really begin. We must have visions…In the history and universe of religions, there is always a great necessity to purify religion so that it does not become an obstacle to the right relation to God but puts man on the right path…In all religions there are men of interior purity who through their myths and beliefs somehow touch the great mystery and find the right way of being human.
**Interviewer: **
*How many ways are there to God? *
**Pope Benedict XVI: **
As many ways as there are people. For even within the same faith each man’s way is an entirely personal one. In that respect there is ultimately one way, and everyone who is on the way to God is therefore in some sense also on the way to Jesus Christ. But this does not mean that all ways are identical in terms of conciousness and will but on the contrary, the one way is so big that it becomes a personal way for each man…We have so much knowledge, so many experiences, and on the other hand we find that faith has been so elaborated upon and oversystematized that access is no longer so easy to come by. I do think that we need a sort of revolution of faith in many respects…There is a new awareness of solidarity, of responsibility for humanity as a whole, of responsibility for creation. There are movements towards unification…The dialogue with other religions is under way. We are, I think, all convinced that we can learn something, for example, from the mysticism of Asia and that precisely the great mystical traditions also open possibilities of encounter…The Christian can also find the secret working of God behind them. Through the other religions God touches man and brings him onto the path. But it is always the same God, the God of Jesus Christ…"
- Pope Benedict XVI, Salt of the Earth (1997 when still Cardinal Ratzinger, republished in 2005 as by the pope)
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Vouthon
Guest
Blessed Pope John Paul II:
"…Q: But if God who is in heaven-and who saved and continues to save the world-is One and only One and is He who has revealed Himself in Jesus Christ, why has He allowed so many religions to exist?
Why did He make the search for the truth so arduous, in the midst of a forest of rituals, of beliefs, of revelations, of faiths which have always thrived-and still do today-throughout the world?
Pope John Paul II: You speak of many religions. Instead I will attempt to show the common fundamental element and the common root of these religions.
The Council defined the relationship of the Church to non-Christian religions in a specific document that begins with the words “Nostra aetate” (“In our time”). It is a concise and yet very rich document that authentically hands on the Tradition, faithful to the thought of the earliest Fathers of the Church.
From the beginning, Christian Revelation has viewed the spiritual history of man as including, in some way, all religions, thereby demonstrating the unity of humankind with regard to the eternal and ultimate destiny of man. The Council document speaks of this unity and links it with the current trend to bring humanity closer together through the resources available to our civilization. The Church sees the promotion of this unity as one of its duties…
Here the Council document brings us to the Far East-first of all to Asia…The words of the Council recall the conviction, long rooted in the Tradition, of the existence of the so-called semina Verbi (seeds of the Word), present in all religions. In the light of this conviction, the Church seeks to identify the semina Verbi present in the great traditions of the Far East, in order to trace a common path against the backdrop of the needs of the contemporary world. We can affirm that here the position of the Council is inspired by a truly universal concern…In another passage the Council says that the Holy Spirit works effectively even outside the visible structure of the Church (cf. Lumen Gentium 13), making use of these very semina Verbi, that constitute a kind of common soteriological root present in all religions.
I have been convinced of this on numerous occasions, both while visiting the countries of the Far East and while meeting representatives of those religions, especially during the historic meeting at Assisi, where we found ourselves gathered together praying for peace.
Thus, instead of marveling at the fact that Providence allows such a great variety of religions, we should be amazed at the number of common elements found within them…
As the Council also noted, these last religions possess the characteristics of a system. They are systems of worship and also ethical systems…The religions of the Far East have contributed greatly to the history of morality and culture, forming a national identity in the Chinese, Indians, Japanese, and Tibetans, and also in the peoples of Southeast Asia and the archipelagoes of the Pacific Ocean.
Some of these peoples come from age-old cultures. The indigenous peoples of Australia boast a history tens of thousands of years old, and their ethnic and religious tradition is older than that of Abraham and Moses.
Christ came into the world for all these peoples. He redeemed them all and has His own ways of reaching each of them in the present eschatological phase of salvation history. In fact, in those regions, many accept Him and many more have an implicit faith in Him (cf. Heb 11:6).
Truth, in fact, cannot be confined. Truth is for one and for all. And if this truth comes about through love (cf. Eph 3:15), then it becomes even more universal…"
***-from Crossing the Threshold of Hope, by Pope John Paul II ***
"…Q: But if God who is in heaven-and who saved and continues to save the world-is One and only One and is He who has revealed Himself in Jesus Christ, why has He allowed so many religions to exist?
Why did He make the search for the truth so arduous, in the midst of a forest of rituals, of beliefs, of revelations, of faiths which have always thrived-and still do today-throughout the world?
Pope John Paul II: You speak of many religions. Instead I will attempt to show the common fundamental element and the common root of these religions.
The Council defined the relationship of the Church to non-Christian religions in a specific document that begins with the words “Nostra aetate” (“In our time”). It is a concise and yet very rich document that authentically hands on the Tradition, faithful to the thought of the earliest Fathers of the Church.
From the beginning, Christian Revelation has viewed the spiritual history of man as including, in some way, all religions, thereby demonstrating the unity of humankind with regard to the eternal and ultimate destiny of man. The Council document speaks of this unity and links it with the current trend to bring humanity closer together through the resources available to our civilization. The Church sees the promotion of this unity as one of its duties…
Here the Council document brings us to the Far East-first of all to Asia…The words of the Council recall the conviction, long rooted in the Tradition, of the existence of the so-called semina Verbi (seeds of the Word), present in all religions. In the light of this conviction, the Church seeks to identify the semina Verbi present in the great traditions of the Far East, in order to trace a common path against the backdrop of the needs of the contemporary world. We can affirm that here the position of the Council is inspired by a truly universal concern…In another passage the Council says that the Holy Spirit works effectively even outside the visible structure of the Church (cf. Lumen Gentium 13), making use of these very semina Verbi, that constitute a kind of common soteriological root present in all religions.
I have been convinced of this on numerous occasions, both while visiting the countries of the Far East and while meeting representatives of those religions, especially during the historic meeting at Assisi, where we found ourselves gathered together praying for peace.
Thus, instead of marveling at the fact that Providence allows such a great variety of religions, we should be amazed at the number of common elements found within them…
As the Council also noted, these last religions possess the characteristics of a system. They are systems of worship and also ethical systems…The religions of the Far East have contributed greatly to the history of morality and culture, forming a national identity in the Chinese, Indians, Japanese, and Tibetans, and also in the peoples of Southeast Asia and the archipelagoes of the Pacific Ocean.
Some of these peoples come from age-old cultures. The indigenous peoples of Australia boast a history tens of thousands of years old, and their ethnic and religious tradition is older than that of Abraham and Moses.
Christ came into the world for all these peoples. He redeemed them all and has His own ways of reaching each of them in the present eschatological phase of salvation history. In fact, in those regions, many accept Him and many more have an implicit faith in Him (cf. Heb 11:6).
Truth, in fact, cannot be confined. Truth is for one and for all. And if this truth comes about through love (cf. Eph 3:15), then it becomes even more universal…"
***-from Crossing the Threshold of Hope, by Pope John Paul II ***
R
rossum
Guest
There is sadness in hell. There is pain in hell. How can someone who is compassionate not feel for those who are suffering in pain and sadness. These are people whom the saints in heaven love, as Jesus told them to. Why would they not feel sadness at the unending suffering of others?
rossum
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patrick457
Guest
I am reminded of the reliefs in the stupas of Sanchi and Bharhut as well as early Gandharan art, where the Buddha is portrayed as either an empty space, an empty throne with a bodhi tree, a wheel (chakra), etc.
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ccmnxc
Guest
I must apologize if this question has been asked, as I haven’t read through the 44 pages.
If you do commit a murder, theft, etc. does that stay with you until you die, or can you, by some form of repentance, rid yourself of that deed (kinda like us Catholics have Confession.)?
Thanks
If you do commit a murder, theft, etc. does that stay with you until you die, or can you, by some form of repentance, rid yourself of that deed (kinda like us Catholics have Confession.)?
Thanks
B
Bakmoon
Guest
Don’t worry, that hasn’t been asked yet. There is no real way to get rid of it, but by changing one’s ways, one can drown out the negative effects of it to stop it from taking root.
- Status