Ask a Gnostic Anything

[Lucretius]

Makes sense. I wasn’t accusing you of displaying an elitist attitude which views those of other religious traditions as stupid or ignorant. My issue was with the fact that to believe Muslims, Buddhists, etc. are objectively wrong is to limit the omnipotent and omnipresent nature of God to one particular incarnation.

As for evolution, I believe it to be the materialist’s way of explaining human origins. It is not ‘wrong’, but it is obviously not a perspective that is conducive to spiritual growth and is therefore not the way that I view creation (or in the Darwinian view, lack thereof). I view human origins through a spiritual lens, not a scientific one.

How so? Very few religion founders claim to be Jewishy divine (only obvious wackos and pagan Emperors do that ). To claim to be the incarnation of God in the context of Jewish beliefs is different then to claim to be the incarnation of God in the context of Indian culture.

Do you mean incarnation in the sense that Jesus is? Or do you mean something broader (like, as if Confucius’s teaching (not the man himself) are an incarnation of God, or a certain ritual that connects you to the divine would be a divine incarnation, or a sunset even being God incarnating Himself to you) ?

Chesterton once wrote something along the lines of this: that nonbelievers claim that God can do anything he wants except found only one religion, IIRC.

You seem to think that God can supersede logic. However, that is wrong, not because God is not powerful enough to do so, but because it’s nonsense. To say that God can supersede logic is like asking for the square root of yellow: only humans in their ignorance can come up with such nonsense.

Christi pax,

Lucretius

 

[joe371]

Not true! What I am doing is claiming the superiority of mystical, esoteric religious approaches over exoteric, dogmatic religion. The experience of God by John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, etc. is in no way inferior to the experience of authentic Gnostics. It is the theology that I disagree with, which in the end is an external aspect of spirituality.

:tsktsk:You said that you denied 2 of the 3 divine Persons of the Trinity i.e. you downgraded the Trinity reducing it to something else altogether. You do not downgrade the role of the holy Trinity by saying that the holy Trinity that we worship is not the only uncaused cause of everything the unmoved mover, and without a doubt the only true God who thought everything that is, into being. Remember I ave access to your posts. LOL

 

[Randy_Carson]

I am familiar with the Catholic concept of apostolic succession and the Church’s theological justification for it.However, I acknowledge the omniscient and omnipresent nature of Christ and therefore cannot accept that he only reveals Himself to the apostles and their successor bishops.

I never said that Jesus only reveals himself to the Bishops, and this is not Catholic doctrine.

I said that He gave His own authority to the Apostles who gave it to their successors, the Bishops. This is Catholic doctrine.

It is true that He unveiled His message to these followers while in His physical incarnation, but that does not in any way negate the fact that intimate knowledge of Christ is, was, and always will be available to all people.

Agreed.

Since you have clearly misunderstood Catholicism, maybe you should take another look now that you know that what you THOUGHT we believe isn’t close to our actual faith.

 

[meltzerboy]

Correct!

So you believe that G-d the Father is NOT J-hovah?

Also, you say your religion does not resemble the Baha’i faith since it is much less pluralistic. What about Quakerism, which also emphasizes the esoteric spiritual aspects rather than the exoteric dogma?

 

[Sophia_Christ]

So you believe that G-d the Father is NOT J-hovah?

Also, you say your religion does not resemble the Baha’i faith since it is much less pluralistic. What about Quakerism, which also emphasizes the esoteric spiritual aspects rather than the exoteric dogma?

No, I do not believe Jehovah is the true God, but that he is a flawed creator mistaking himself to be the real God.

Quakers, Bahai’i, followers of the Hindu Ramakrishna, etc. tend to follow a line of thinking that follow ‘many paths to the same summit.’ This means that all religions are simply different paths to the same mystical experience. I believe that while all (or most) religions can reach God, the path you take determines the type of experience that you will have upon God-realization. These experiences will be different in nature, but they are simply different aspects of the same underlying substratum which is God. Because God is omnipotent, He is not bound by one cultural manifestation.

Meltzer, just out of curiosity, are you an Orthodox Jew?

 

[Sophia_Christ]

I never said that Jesus only reveals himself to the Bishops, and this is not Catholic doctrine.

I said that He gave His own authority to the Apostles who gave it to their successors, the Bishops. This is Catholic doctrine.

By that logic, there is no way that a Catholic can have an intimate experience of Christ outside the rituals or doctrines of the Church because Jesus only revealed Himself to one small group of people at one specific point in history. Also that would imply that contemplation (in the Catholic sense) is a pointless activity.

 

[meltzerboy]

No, I do not believe Jehovah is the true God, but that he is a flawed creator mistaking himself to be the real God.

Quakers, Bahai’i, followers of the Hindu Ramakrishna, etc. tend to follow a line of thinking that follow ‘many paths to the same summit.’ This means that all religions are simply different paths to the same mystical experience. I believe that while all (or most) religions can reach God, the path you take determines the type of experience that you will have upon God-realization. These experiences will be different in nature, but they are simply different aspects of the same underlying substratum which is God. Because God is omnipotent, He is not bound by one cultural manifestation.

Meltzer, just out of curiosity, are you an Orthodox Jew?

No, I am a Reform Jew, who was brought up in a Conservative Jewish home and attended as a child an Orthodox Jewish synagogue. Confusing?

What exactly do you believe about Jesus in terms of divinity, Messiahship, hypostatic union, and so forth? Perhaps you’ve already answered this, but I’m curious.

 

[Sophia_Christ]

:tsktsk:You said that you denied 2 of the 3 divine Persons of the Trinity i.e. you downgraded the Trinity reducing it to something else altogether. You do not downgrade the role of the holy Trinity by saying that the holy Trinity that we worship is not the only uncaused cause of everything the unmoved mover, and without a doubt the only true God who thought everything that is, into being. Remember I ave access to your posts. LOL

I don’t deny the other two aspects of the trinity-I just believe that on the ultimate level, God is singular rather than tripartite. Its a distinction between conventional and ultimate truth.

 

[Sophia_Christ]

How so? Very few religion founders claim to be Jewishy divine (only obvious wackos and pagan Emperors do that ). To claim to be the incarnation of God in the context of Jewish beliefs is different then to claim to be the incarnation of God in the context of Indian culture.

Do you mean incarnation in the sense that Jesus is? Or do you mean something broader (like, as if Confucius’s teaching (not the man himself) are an incarnation of God, or a certain ritual that connects you to the divine would be a divine incarnation, or a sunset even being God incarnating Himself to you) ?

Chesterton once wrote something along the lines of this: that nonbelievers claim that God can do anything he wants except found only one religion, IIRC.

You seem to think that God can supersede logic. However, that is wrong, not because God is not powerful enough to do so, but because it’s nonsense. To say that God can supersede logic is like asking for the square root of yellow: only humans in their ignorance can come up with such nonsense.

Christi pax,

Lucretius

But you are claiming superiority of the Judeo-Christian incarnation over other cultural interpretations.

And I do not see it as illogical at all to claim that God reveals Himself differently and in sometimes contradicting fashion across cultures. We see this with human beings. I am a son to my mother, a jokester to my friends, and a lover to my girlfriend. I say things around my friends that I would never say in front of my mother and my interaction with my girlfriend is different than that of my buddies. All these people have seen a different side of me based on the relationship that we have cooperatively fostered with each other. But I am still one person just as God is one singular entity. And on an even more magnified level, this is true for relationships with every individual. For example, my relationship with one friend is different than with another. And remember earlier in the thread one poster was saying she felt a quietness free of emotions when receiving the Eucharist, while you felt great ecstasy? So, the experience can be different even among those of the same religious tendencies which is why i put so much weight on personal revelation.

 

[Sophia_Christ]

No, I am a Reform Jew, who was brought up in a Conservative Jewish home and attended as a child an Orthodox Jewish synagogue. Confusing?

What exactly do you believe about Jesus in terms of divinity, Messiahship, hypostatic union, and so forth? Perhaps you’ve already answered this, but I’m curious.

Wow so you got the full range of the Jewish faith!

Divinity: Jesus was born human and became divine through His complete absorption in God. The culmination of this was during his baptism. During His crucifixion, the last remnants of His earthly existence (His body) was shed and He entered into a state of consciousness where He had zero individuality-He was completely absorbed in the divine.

Messiahship: I do not believe that Jesus fulfilled the messianic qualifications of the Old Testament (I was actually firmly convinced of this fact by Rabbi Yosef Mizrachi-are you familiar?). However, I do not find the prophecies of the Tanakh to be relevant to my spiritual life, so it is not important. However, I do think that Jesus was born to be a representative of the divine for the people of that region and any that open their hearts to Him.

Hypostatic Union: Gnostics believe that all people are born half human and half divine. With the exception of His physical body (which He was not attached to nor associated with His existence), He became pure spirit upon His baptism.

 

[Lucretius]

I would say this regarding non-Judeo-Christians:

Everyone can reach certain parts of the summit without faith: everyone can use reason to reach certain truths (like the existence of God). So knowledge of God is available to all, as the Apostles writes (in his letter to the Romans 1:19-20),

The knowledge of God is clear to their minds; God himself has made it clear to them; from the foundations of the world men have caught sight of his invisible nature, his eternal power and his divineness, as they are known through his creatures. Thus there is no excuse for them…

Even then, few of those limited to reason would be able to reach the Truth. Many got lost: they went in a direction that lead far from the Truth. So even then, finding these Truths through reason alone was a very difficult task.

However, God has set aside a people, a people who, although they have been weighed by great responsibility, have also been given certain privilege. Israel has been given knowledge of the True God, knowledge that could not even in principle be found by reason, but rather only by a Revelation. They not only recognize the True God, but they have entered in a relationship (read: covenant) with Him, and thus, just as spouses are only allowed to know one another, so only those who are a part of this covenant are given knowledge of the True God. I remind others though: after the Messiah came, God changed the form this covenant by: 1) deepening it, 2) making it salvatory, and 3) opening it to the Gentiles. Now, although the Jews were saved first (they are the Guests of Honor at the Wedding Table), those who were only able to know God through the world can now know Him directly through the Holy Spirit.

Because of this Divine Revelation, those who accepted His Grace can help those limited to reason find these Truths, for they have been revealed. When it comes to Truth that can be known through reason, Divine Revelation is like the answers at the back of the book, which can be used to guild reason so that it won’t go off track. One can even go farther, in that by reaching the truths knowable by reason, by reason, it will become easier for one to accept the gift of Faith and take the next leap.

God is revealed to everyone in every culture. The problem is that humans being fallen, have misunderstood what has been revealed to them. To use your analogy, those in a weak relationship with me will only see parts of me, and thus fill in what they haven’t seen or misunderstand what they have seem. On the other hand, when I give my mind, life, and heart to my wife (if I had one :crying: ), she would see every part of me: she would see me as a whole, as I would give her everything that is me (if I am a perfect lover ). Because she sees me like this, she is now able to understand me completely, won’t have misunderstandings since I will guild her through them, and won’t need to fill in any details. The weaker relationships are like those between God and the Gentiles, the relationship between the spouses is like the relationship between God and Israel. Since God is Love, He is the perfect Lover, and thus gives Himself completely to His beloved, Israel. Israel, on the other hand, is given complete knowledge of God so that She will not fall into the errors of the Gentiles, with their ignorance. Jesus the Messiah has come and opened this spouse-like relationship to Gentiles as well as Jews, so that they can strengthen their relationship with God. The Church, who is the new Israel, has this knowledge of God, and so clarifies it when She needs to (this is called the Magisterium, aka “the teaching Authority”).

This is why the Apostle also says (in his first letter to the Corinthians 9:22):

With the scrupulous, I behaved myself like one who is scrupulous, to win the scrupulous. I have been everything by turns to everybody, to bring everybody salvation.

and from St. Luke’s Acts of the Apostles, chapter 17, line 23:

Why, in examining your monuments as I passed by them, I found among others an altar which bore the inscription, To the unknown God. And it is this unknown object of your devotion that I am revealing to you.

The Apostle to the Gentiles knew that the Gentiles had an imperfect relationship with the True God, with their misunderstandings coming from their culture and the like. So, he decided to find the aspects of God that have been revealed to them, and show them where they’ve gone wrong with misunderstandings, and then to take them on the Right Path, filling in the rest with Revelation.

He could only be “everything by turns of everyone,” because the Gentiles had an incomplete knowledge, while he had complete knowledge. Since he was complete, he could emphasis in himself what the Gentiles have been given, so that they would realize that he has everything they have, and more. And thus be converted.

I hope this post makes sense, because it took a while to write, and I’m not sure whether what I am trying to show you came out clearly. I kind of just wrote down my thoughts, which even confuse me

Christi pax,

Lucretius

 

[Lucretius]

Messiahship: I do not believe that Jesus fulfilled the messianic qualifications of the Old Testament (I was actually firmly convinced of this fact by Rabbi Yosef Mizrachi-are you familiar?). However, I do not find the prophecies of the Tanakh to be relevant to my spiritual life, so it is not important. However, I do think that Jesus was born to be a representative of the divine for the people of that region and any that open their hearts to Him.

Here’s an off the cuff answer to many of the common off the cuff objections against Jesus of Nazareth being the Messiah (I just searched it on this site, who knew?). Modern Rabbinical Judaism is different than Second Temple Judaism. Any Jew can tell you that. Often times they reinterpret prophecies post-Jesus differently then Jews pre-Jesus: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=345705&highlight=prophecies

I really don’t want to debate this now, though. I have to finish reading Salvation is from the Jews by Roy Schoeman (himself a Hebrew Catholic) first.

Christi pax,

Lucretius

 

[Sophia_Christ]

I would say this regarding non-Judeo-Christians:

Everyone can reach certain parts of the summit without faith: everyone can use reason to reach certain truths (like the existence of God). So knowledge of God is available to all, as the Apostles writes (in his letter to the Romans 1:19-20),

Even then, few of those limited to reason would be able to reach the Truth. Many got lost: they went in a direction that lead far from the Truth. So even then, finding these Truths through reason alone was a very difficult task.

However, God has set aside a people, a people who, although they have been weighed by great responsibility, have also been given certain privilege. Israel has been given knowledge of the True God, knowledge that could not even in principle be found by reason, but rather only by a Revelation. They not only recognize the True God, but they have entered in a relationship (read: covenant) with Him, and thus, just as spouses are only allowed to know one another, so only those who are a part of this covenant are given knowledge of the True God. I remind others though: after the Messiah came, God changed the form this covenant by: 1) deepening it, 2) making it salvatory, and 3) opening it to the Gentiles. Now, although the Jews were saved first (they are the Guests of Honor at the Wedding Table), those who were only able to know God through the world can now know Him directly through the Holy Spirit.

Because of this Divine Revelation, those who accepted His Grace can help those limited to reason find these Truths, for they have been revealed. When it comes to Truth that can be known through reason, Divine Revelation is like the answers at the back of the book, which can be used to guild reason so that it won’t go off track. One can even go farther, in that by reaching the truths knowable by reason, by reason, it will become easier for one to accept the gift of Faith and take the next leap.

God is revealed to everyone in every culture. The problem is that humans being fallen, have misunderstood what has been revealed to them. To use your analogy, those in a weak relationship with me will only see parts of me, and thus fill in what they haven’t seen or misunderstand what they have seem. On the other hand, when I give my mind, life, and heart to my wife (if I had one :crying: ), she would see every part of me: she would see me as a whole, as I would give her everything that is me (if I am a perfect lover ). Because she sees me like this, she is now able to understand me completely, won’t have misunderstandings since I will guild her through them, and won’t need to fill in any details. The weaker relationships are like those between God and the Gentiles, the relationship between the spouses is like the relationship between God and Israel. Since God is Love, He is the perfect Lover, and thus gives Himself completely to His beloved, Israel. Israel, on the other hand, is given complete knowledge of God so that She will not fall into the errors of the Gentiles, with their ignorance. Jesus the Messiah has come and opened this spouse-like relationship to Gentiles as well as Jews, so that they can strengthen their relationship with God. The Church, who is the new Israel, has this knowledge of God, and so clarifies it when She needs to (this is called the Magisterium, aka “the teaching Authority”).

This is why the Apostle also says (in his first letter to the Corinthians 9:22):

and from St. Luke’s Acts of the Apostles, chapter 17, line 23:

The Apostle to the Gentiles knew that the Gentiles had an imperfect relationship with the True God, with their misunderstandings coming from their culture and the like. So, he decided to find the aspects of God that have been revealed to them, and show them where they’ve gone wrong with misunderstandings, and then to take them on the Right Path, filling in the rest with Revelation.

He could only be “everything by turns of everyone,” because the Gentiles had an incomplete knowledge, while he had complete knowledge. Since he was complete, he could emphasis in himself what the Gentiles have been given, so that they would realize that he has everything they have, and more. And thus be converted.

I hope this post makes sense, because it took a while to write, and I’m not sure whether what I am trying to show you came out clearly. I kind of just wrote down my thoughts, which even confuse me

Christi pax,

Lucretius

Its not confusing what youre saying makes perfect logical sense!

However, I do not feel that you adequately explained your basis for why you believe other culture’s conception of God to be a mere misunderstanding of Jehovah.

Also, why does it make sense to believe that one culture (Israel) had a monopoly on God for thousands of years of history prior to the arrival of Jesus?

 

[Sophia_Christ]

Here’s an off the cuff answer to many of the common off the cuff objections against Jesus of Nazareth being the Messiah (I just searched it on this site, who knew?). Modern Rabbinical Judaism is different than Second Temple Judaism. Any Jew can tell you that. Often times they reinterpret prophecies post-Jesus differently then Jews pre-Jesus: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=345705&highlight=prophecies

I really don’t want to debate this now, though. I have to finish reading Salvation is from the Jews by Roy Schoeman (himself a Hebrew Catholic) first.

Christi pax,

Lucretius

Fair enough, i’ll check it out but like I said, even if you were to prove that Jesus fulfilled the prophecies of the Old Testament, it would not make any difference because I do not profess allegiance to Jehovah.

 

[Lucretius]

However, I do not feel that you adequately explained your basis for why you believe other culture’s conception of God to be a mere misunderstanding of Jehovah.

Also, why does it make sense to believe that one culture (Israel) had a monopoly on God for thousands of years of history prior to the arrival of Jesus?

Ι have been reading St. Therese’s Autobiography, in which I think I can tie in her thoughts with Chesterton’s, as well as my own. It has always been a mystery to me: that God gives more grace to others, that God chose Israel over all the other nations, etc. I think Modern philosophy has rubbed off on us through our culture, so that we get this excessive emphasis on equality. So, when God’s actions seem to treat people “unfairly,” people get mad at God.

There is a Jewish Fable where every other people in the world was given the option of being the Chosen People, but only the Jews chose to (usually the reason is from something of an accident, sometimes the reason is ignorance of the hardships, and sometimes it’s because the Jews were just plain stupid ) Remember, Jews don’t view being Chosen as a privilege (usually ), but rather as a responsibility.

Christi pax,

Lucretius

 

[meltzerboy]

Ι have been reading St. Therese’s Autobiography, in which I think I can tie in her thoughts with Chesterton’s, as well as my own. It has always been a mystery to me: that God gives more grace to others, that God chose Israel over all the other nations, etc. I think Modern philosophy has rubbed off on us through our culture, so that we get this excessive emphasis on equality. So, when God’s actions seem to treat people “unfairly,” people get mad at God.

There is a Jewish Fable where every other people in the world was given the option of being the Chosen People, but only the Jews chose to (usually the reason is from something of an accident, sometimes the reason is ignorance of the hardships, and sometimes it’s because the Jews were just plain stupid ) Remember, Jews don’t view being Chosen as a privilege (usually ), but rather as a responsibility.

Christi pax,

Lucretius

Some Jews believe it is more than a fable; most are not aware of this. Perhaps it is so to emphasize the daunting challenge and responsibility involved in the mission of the Jewish people rather than the privilege. Also, only the Jews accepted the responsibility.

 

[Sophia_Christ]

Ι have been reading St. Therese’s Autobiography, in which I think I can tie in her thoughts with Chesterton’s, as well as my own. It has always been a mystery to me: that God gives more grace to others, that God chose Israel over all the other nations, etc. I think Modern philosophy has rubbed off on us through our culture, so that we get this excessive emphasis on equality. So, when God’s actions seem to treat people “unfairly,” people get mad at God.

There is a Jewish Fable where every other people in the world was given the option of being the Chosen People, but only the Jews chose to (usually the reason is from something of an accident, sometimes the reason is ignorance of the hardships, and sometimes it’s because the Jews were just plain stupid ) Remember, Jews don’t view being Chosen as a privilege (usually ), but rather as a responsibility.

Christi pax,

Lucretius

Fairness aside, don’t you find it contradictory to the very definition of omipresence/omnipotence that God would limit His exposure to one group of people?

Also, Im pretty sure the Jews view being the Chosen People as both a responsibility and a blessing/privilege.

 

[WonderAndAwe]

Considering that the “g” in Gnostic is silent, should Agnostic be pronounced “Aynostic?”

 

[Lucretius]

Considering that the “g” in Gnostic is silent, should Agnostic be pronounced “Aynostic?”

etymonline.com/index.php?term=agnostic&allowed_in_frame=0

etymonline.com/index.php?term=gnostic&allowed_in_frame=0

en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Gnostic#English

en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B3%CE%BD%E1%BF%B6%CF%83%CE%B9%CF%82#Ancient_Greek

“γ” is the lower case form of Gamma (“Γ”). It looks like in Ancient Greek it was pronounce like “g” in “game”, but by Jesus’s time it was pronounced like a “w” as in “women” (the IPA symbol is “ɣ”: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_velar_fricative ).

In English, “gnostic” is pronounced with the “g” silenced (like “gnat”). But in “agnostic,” the g is pronounced.

Christi pax,

Lucretius

 

[meltzerboy]

Here’s an off the cuff answer to many of the common off the cuff objections against Jesus of Nazareth being the Messiah (I just searched it on this site, who knew?). Modern Rabbinical Judaism is different than Second Temple Judaism. Any Jew can tell you that. Often times they reinterpret prophecies post-Jesus differently then Jews pre-Jesus: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=345705&highlight=prophecies

I really don’t want to debate this now, though. I have to finish reading Salvation is from the Jews by Roy Schoeman (himself a Hebrew Catholic) first.

Christi pax,

Lucretius

There is much to debate here, and it has been done ad infinitum both on and off CAF. To comment only on one point, Jews believe that modern Judaism in its essence has remained the same.