meltzerboy
New member
Thanks for the information, Sophia. Your belief is, in part, the reverse of that of Nazarene Jews, who believe that Jesus was the Messiah but not divine.
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Lucretius
Guest
I would be careful with that statement: there has not been a Temple sacrifice in 2000 years (ignoring the whole Jesus-Mass-Sacrificing thingy
). I actually arguably agree that the Rabbinical Jews still sit in what Jesus called the “chair of Moses,” but obviously the ritual (Temple) aspect has been lost for some time now.Christi pax,
Lucretius
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WonderAndAwe
Guest
So… Yes? No?
meltzerboy
New member
I’m too tired to debate this point now since it is quite complicated; but there are other threads on similar issues in which I have provided the Jewish perspective. It involves the meaning of animal sacrifices in the larger context of Jewish theology. Maybe tomorrow on a different thread!I would be careful with that statement: there has not been a Temple sacrifice in 2000 years (ignoring the whole Jesus-Mass-Sacrificing thingy
Christi pax,
Lucretius
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Lucretius
Guest
These things are REALLY complicated (they have been around for 2000 years). It’s not like Rabbis enjoy agreeing with each other or anything, anyway. That’s why I didn’t want to debate it: especially unprepared.
Christi pax,
Lucretius
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Lucretius
Guest
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Lucretius
Guest
I was swept by the moment: I LOVE languages, so I began to Info Dump really fast
Sorry, WonderAndAwe!
Christi pax,
Lucretius
Sorry, WonderAndAwe!
Christi pax,
Lucretius
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Stillsosola
Guest
My question Dan browns books tend to paint gnostics as ceremonial magic/Mary Magdalene worshippers this is incorrect? Also is Sophia a goddess in your beliefs or a symbol of wisdom?
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Sophia_Christ
Guest
We do believe in magic (not in the David Blaine sense) and believe magical experiences can occur during ritualistic ceremonies. For example, the spiritual feelings experienced during the traditional Catholic mass can be viewed as a magical occurrence. We do not worship Mary Magdalene but see her as a favored apostle of Jesus and a human emanation of Sophia. Sophia is a goddess but ultimately all gods and goddesses are viewed as symbols of the tendencies of the human psyche.
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Ceddd99
Guest
Can you please excplain to me about the demiurge?
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Denise1957
Guest
I don’t think that ‘monopoly’ is a good term to use in this case. It’s not the culture necessarily that was favored by God, but rather that Judaism itself was fiercely monotheistic, and remained so, even though some Jews believed in polytheism at times. That’s my understanding; maybe Meltzer can correct me if I’m wrong about that.
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Lucretius
Guest
The only reason the Jews were monotheistic is because God kept (literally) pounding it into their heads. He revealed Himself to them, and thus they stayed monotheistic, not that they were monotheistic, and thus He then revealed Himself to them. Or at least this is my understanding.
Christi pax,
Lucretius
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gnosisofthomas
Guest
Dan Brown’s book is fiction, so it’s depiction of Gnosticism is largely meant to entertain, not to teach.
In my own Church, we do see a certain ceremonial magical aspect to the liturgy, especially the Eucharist – more specifically this would be theurgy, as we invoke God and make Him present on the altar. But ceremonial magic isn’t emphasized in the Church.Mary Magdalene is one of the most, if not the most, important of Jesus’ disciples. She had a very special relationship with Him and understood Him better than the others, often to the frustration of the other apostles. She isn’t worshiped though, she’s venerated just like any other saint. If I remember correctly, Dan Brown depicted her and Jesus as married and having children together, which is not something Gnostics would believe. Gnostic scripture does say Jesus would kiss her often, and even refers to her as His consort (which could have various different meanings), but there’s no indication that they were married. It’s just part of Brown’s fiction.
Sophia isn’t so much a goddess but She’s not just a symbol either. She’s an Aeon – an emanated aspect (hypostasis) of the Father. “Goddess” tends to imply, in modern terms, a female counterpart to God; but since She is literally an aspect of Him, “Goddess” seems to be incorrect. But if by, “goddess” you mean a divine reality who happens to be identified as feminine, then I guess you could call Her one. While She has a very special place in Gnosticism, I’d suggest reading the Wisdom literature in the Bible to get a sense of what She is.
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gnosisofthomas
Guest
In the Gnostic view of the Divine, God contains all potentiality within Himself. Everything that can exist in the past, present, and future are all part of Him. God first emanated in order to understand Himself, so with the first emanation (Forethought, Barbelo, the Mother of the Aeons) He then had an observer and an “observee”. Each one of us are part of His overall experience… What we experience temporally is just a blip in His eternal existence. So the flaw also came about, through His will, as a means of experiencing all that He contains.
I’ve always found it interesting that Sophia’s syzygy is called Theletos, which means “perfection”. Whereas all the Aeons emanate through the cooperation of a masculine and feminine pair (syzygies), Sophia’s longing to know Her source resulted in Her emanating without Theletos – without perfection. This resulted in an imperfect emanation, the demiurge, whose imperfection all creation experiences and tries to overcome.
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gnosisofthomas
Guest
Truth is quite different from historical facts. When Gnostics speak of myths, it shouldn’t be taken as “stories that aren’t true”, but rather that the truths are embodied in these myths are of a different nature than dogmas of theology or philosophical statements. Ultimately, myth is more true than fact, because myths can help us understand eternal truths that are difficult to put into words due to the limitations of language.
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gnosisofthomas
Guest
In some of our liturgies, we talk about the Fourfold Godhead – the Holy Trinity, who is God; and the “fourth” aspect being the ineffable Unity of the three persons.
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gnosisofthomas
Guest
Linguistically, in English, no. In Greek (and even in French) the “g” is pronounced “Gnostic” – English speakers just have a difficult time doing that.
meltzerboy
New member
Are there any Gnostics who do not regard themselves as Christians? And, on the flipside, do you know which other Christians consider Gnostics to be Christians?
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Slartibartfast
Guest
Hullo Sophia,
Thank-you for such a fascinating thread,
From the dim and distant past, in a time when I was fascinated by all things Gnostic, I recall reading that there were some schools of Gnosticism where it was held that not all humans had the Divine Spark within them; that it was, in fact, impossible for these human beings to ever attain gnosis. Is that correct?
I became frustrated with Gnosticism chiefly owing to the fact it seemed impossible to find any method of practice whereby one could attain gnosis. Does your school have a methodical path of practice to realise the goal? If it does, would you be able to provide an overview of the practice , please? I must say that would be interesting to read about.
I read The Gnostic Religion by Hans Jonas a few times a long time ago. One thing that puzzled me was that the path towards gnosis required the need of the Divine Spark to overcome overwhelming opposition from the Archons and at many hierarchical levels, too. In fact, the complexity of the cosmos as depicted by Gnostic schools was thoroughly bewildering! I seem to recall that Irenaeus had a few things to say about that as well!
Anyway, I must say that the overriding impression that I was left with was that it was nigh on impossible to escape from the ‘prison’ of the earth and its rulers, those frightening Archons.
I note with interest that the gnostic comments elsewhere on the web, surrounding the Gospel of Thomas for instance, don’t seem to mention these difficulties; Gnosis is achieved by an internal transformation, often brought about by a new understanding of Christ’s teachings (often secret) and with the aid of esoteric knowledge. The result is union with God. I wonder if I am not mixing up diverse schools of Gnosticism…
Thank-you for such a fascinating thread,
From the dim and distant past, in a time when I was fascinated by all things Gnostic, I recall reading that there were some schools of Gnosticism where it was held that not all humans had the Divine Spark within them; that it was, in fact, impossible for these human beings to ever attain gnosis. Is that correct?
I became frustrated with Gnosticism chiefly owing to the fact it seemed impossible to find any method of practice whereby one could attain gnosis. Does your school have a methodical path of practice to realise the goal? If it does, would you be able to provide an overview of the practice , please? I must say that would be interesting to read about.
I read The Gnostic Religion by Hans Jonas a few times a long time ago. One thing that puzzled me was that the path towards gnosis required the need of the Divine Spark to overcome overwhelming opposition from the Archons and at many hierarchical levels, too. In fact, the complexity of the cosmos as depicted by Gnostic schools was thoroughly bewildering! I seem to recall that Irenaeus had a few things to say about that as well!
Anyway, I must say that the overriding impression that I was left with was that it was nigh on impossible to escape from the ‘prison’ of the earth and its rulers, those frightening Archons.
I note with interest that the gnostic comments elsewhere on the web, surrounding the Gospel of Thomas for instance, don’t seem to mention these difficulties; Gnosis is achieved by an internal transformation, often brought about by a new understanding of Christ’s teachings (often secret) and with the aid of esoteric knowledge. The result is union with God. I wonder if I am not mixing up diverse schools of Gnosticism…
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RACJ
Guest
A Christian is someone who believes that Christ is God, and also accepts that He came to the world to offer salvation for each person’s sins. Anyone else is NOT a Christian.
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