Ask a Pagan (Again!)

[LemonAndLime]

How do you know that what you believe in, how you practice your religion (rituals) and how you express your beliefs is right/correct/genuine?

For example, as a Catholic, I know what I’m doing is “right” because its based on a direct line of tradition from Jesus, as well as the Holy Bible and my local Church/Priest.

 

[Warrenton]

. Some have reason to believe that a god or goddess made contact with them, and that’s fine for them, but is it really going to convince anyone else?

That is the only thing that is going to convince anyone else.

The only reason you believe what you claim to believe is because someone, sometime, claimed to know what you believe, and someone else believed that person.

 

[Lokabrenna]

How do you know that what you believe in, how you practice your religion (rituals) and how you express your beliefs is right/correct/genuine?

For example, as a Catholic, I know what I’m doing is “right” because its based on a direct line of tradition from Jesus, as well as the Holy Bible and my local Church/Priest.

This will vary depending on who you talk to, a reconstructionist Pagan might say something like:

This is what my ancestors have been doing for centuries (based on primary source material, archaeological evidence, and scholarly articles regarding this practice) or “This is as close as I can get to what my ancestors were doing,” which is also based on the above mentioned sources.

A Wiccan might say that they perform a ritual a certain way because they’re part of a lineage that has done it a certain way.

But the simplest explanation is that the gods have made it known (through dreams, during prayer, from an analysis of their particular cults) that they want to be worshiped a certain way.

Of course, sometimes a practice just “works”.

 

[Legal_Eagle]

These things are true for specific groups of people (Rastafarians, Mormons, and Muslims respectively) but they’re not my truth.

So then if I become a Mormon the Smith was actually guided to some plates by an angel, but if I later renounce my Morman beliefs then Smith was a fruad? Is that how it works?

Peace,

 

[Lokabrenna]

That is the only thing that is going to convince anyone else.

 

[MorningSong51]

In the second century, to proclaim that God exists as a Trinity, would be to proclaim that which was heretical.

As a general rule, Pagans do not believe that there is one true way.

Pagans do have fairly strong opinions that there is one correct way to do a specific ritual, when they are participants in the specific ritual. If they are not participants in the ritual, then whatever way you do the ritual is fine, because it involves you, and not them.

Amber

Specific ritual - what ritual would you be thinking of? and also what is your opinion about Trinitarian Wicca and upholding the Wiccan Rede. Aren’t they practicing two religions as Trinitarian practitioners celebrate the Wiccan Way, observing the 8 Sabbats, the 13 Esbats, and upholding the Wiccan Rede. How can you observe one religion in one way as a trinitarian and on the other hand, observe the rituals of another? I would think this would be rather confusing to a lot of people - especially within a community and having members of your own.

 

[Lokabrenna]

So then if I become a Mormon the Smith was actually guided to some plates by an angel, but if I later renounce my Mormon beliefs then Smith was a fruad? Is that how it works?

Peace,

Well, I would assume that you would be renouncing your Mormon beliefs for some reason, which could very well be because you have determined that Joseph Smith was a fraud. However, that doesn’t stop all the faithful Mormons in the world from believing that the same thing is true.

I used to believe that Adam and Eve were real people who were tempted by Satan in the guise of a serpent, but I don’t believe that anymore, that doesn’t suddenly mean that the story has no meaning for anyone (that it doesn’t contain “truths”) and it’s fine if you want to believe it. What I don’t like is when anyone insists that I believe it is true. I’m not the religious police, and I won’t do anyone else’s spiritual “work” for them.

 

[Legal_Eagle]

Well, I would assume that you would be renouncing your Mormon beliefs for some reason, which could very well be because you have determined that Joseph Smith was a fraud. However, that doesn’t stop all the faithful Mormons in the world from believing that the same thing is true.

I used to believe that Adam and Eve were real people who were tempted by Satan in the guise of a serpent, but I don’t believe that anymore, that doesn’t suddenly mean that the story has no meaning for anyone (that it doesn’t contain “truths”) and it’s fine if you want to believe it. What I don’t like is when anyone insists that I believe it is true. I’m not the religious police, and I won’t do anyone else’s spiritual “work” for them.

Do you understand the difference between belief and truth?

 

[Lokabrenna]

Do you understand the difference between belief and truth?

Well, in my opinion, no one can definitively say what is “Truth” (capital ‘t’ truth) when it comes to religious beliefs. As both I and amber_lux have said, Pagans reject the notion that there is such a thing as universal truth, beliefs, however, are plentiful.

 

[Legal_Eagle]

Well, in my opinion, no one can definitively say what is “Truth” (capital ‘t’ truth) when it comes to religious beliefs. As both I and amber_lux have said, Pagans reject the notion that there is such a thing as universal truth, beliefs, however, are plentiful.

Would be correct to say then, that “for you” the word “belief” is synonomous" with the word “truth?”

 

[Lokabrenna]

Would be correct to say then, that “for you” the word “belief” is synonomous" with the word “truth?”

Depends on the definition of the word “truth”, more accurately, I would say that a person perceives “truths” in a story even though that story might not be literally true.

I would say “the moon is made of green cheese” is a belief, but it might also contain a “truth” for someone, that’s not the same as saying it is “true” (as in, scientifically true, science shows that the moon is composed of rock). I’m not sure what sort of truth that belief would convey though, maybe it sets someone’s mind at ease to think that the moon is made of green cheese.

In any case, what my neighbour believes isn’t a concern of mine (unless, of course, it has a direct impact on me and mine).

 

[amber_lux]

Popular opinion does not alter reality. The Arians were simply in error.

The Arians were not the only non-Trinitarians prior to Nicea.

The reality of the nature of Christ did not change at Nicea. Defining truth does not create truth.

Nicea simply points to where what became contemporary 21st century Christianity first learned how to reject the teachings of Jesus the Christ of Nazareth.

Either God was manifested Haile Selassie I or the Rastas are wrong. Either Joseph Smith was led by an Angel to some golden plates or he was a fraud. Either God dictated the Koran through Mohammed or he did not. I could go on, but you get the picture.

The picture is that you are incapable of envisioning a Universe where Either/Both exist, and are simultaneously both True and False.

Based on what?

Ritual is a psychological exercise based upon internal axioms. In ritual,the beliefs underlying the practice are what makes, or breaks the ritual.

If all truth is relative and one person’s belief is just as valid as any other person’s belief then how dare anyone have any strong opinions about anything?

Pagan theology allows an individual to believe whatever they wish to believe, regardless of how absurd, bizarre, or ridiculous the belief is. The limitation is in expecting to others to believe as you do, simply on your say so.

Amber

 

[amber_lux]

Specific ritual - what ritual would you be thinking of?

It doesn’t matter what the ritual is.

I’ve seen heated discussions about each and every aspect of nearly every ritual I’ve participated in. These can range from which direction represents water, to how to perform the five-fold kiss, to whether scourging should draw blood on the first blow, the last blow, or none of them.

Aren’t they practising two religions as Trinitarian practitioners celebrate the Wiccan Way, observing the 8 Sabbats, the 13 Esbats, and upholding the Wiccan Rede.

Their trad. Their lineage. Their choice. Not my trad. Not my lineage.

Would I do ritual with them? That depends. What type of energy do they emanate?

Amber

 

[genesius28]

I’ve been reading this whole thread, and have had responses to practically every comment… unfortunately it would take too long to respond to all of them, haha! But in regards to God and Truth, here are my thoughts:

In talking about the Divine, we’re talking about something that exists beyond the limitations of time and space, something far greater than what the human mind can even begin to comprehend. The ancient Gnostics, for example, referred to God as the Ineffable Father, because you can’t explain Him with the limitations of language – the minute you do, you’re setting up limitations that don’t actually exist for Him. Of course, as humans, we have to find some way to talk about Him, so His nature is expressed in a wide variety of ways… which leads to many different religious philosophies. Likewise, we need some way to connect to Him, through prayer, ritual, etc… So praxis comes in many different forms. One theory or practice might resonate with one person, but does absolutely nothing for someone else; yet they’re both still striving to connect with their ultimate Source. It doesn’t matter how we define God, or what we call Him. What matters is that we find a way to connect with Him, whether that be through Catholicism, Methodism, Lutheranism, Paganism, Hinduism… whatever.

I’ll be straightforward, I’m clergy in a Christian Gnostic church; I was raised Protestant; I converted to Catholicism as a teenager and still somewhat identify with my Catholicity; *and *I practiced Wicca for several years. In all that time, I was searching for Truth; and I was convinced of the truth of each those religions (as far as I could tell!) at the time I was practicing them. At no time, however, was I ever separated from God – I was still connecting with the same Ineffable God, no matter what I called Him, or what the outward trappings were.

I’d originally wanted to quote part of this passage from the Gospel of Philip in response to someone’s suggestion that the Trinity was a 4th century belief, because it illustrates that at least some Christians already held a belief in the Trinity prior to that (it’s far more explicit about Trinitarian belief than any of the canonical gospels!). But I think quoting a bit more of it illustrates Truth even better:

“Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in the types and images. It will not receive it in any other fashion. There is a rebirth and an image of rebirth. It is fitting for those who do not only receive the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, but have obtained them for themselves. If anyone does not obtain them for himself, the name also will be taken from him. But one receives them in the chrism of the fullness of the power of the Cross, which the apostles call the right and the left. For this one is no longer a Christian but a Christ.”

Truth has to come into the world in a form that people are able to receive it… For some they find Truth in Christianity, others find it in Paganism, still others find it in Islam. For me, Gnosticism has answered more of the questions I’ve had than any other religion. That’s not to say that it’s right for everyone, but it works for me! The real point is to connect with the Divine, somehow. But to say that only one religion describes ineffable truths accurately, is not only a bit arrogant, but it puts limitations on God that don’t actually exist.

(Sorry for the ridiculously long response, I’m not very good at being concise, haha!) Pax!

 

[MorningSong51]

It doesn’t matter what the ritual is.

I’ve seen heated discussions about each and every aspect of nearly every ritual I’ve participated in. These can range from which direction represents water, to how to perform the five-fold kiss, to whether scourging should draw blood on the first blow, the last blow, or none of them.

 

[MorningSong51]

I’ve been reading this whole thread, and have had responses to practically every comment… unfortunately it would take too long to respond to all of them, haha! But in regards to God and Truth, here are my thoughts:

In talking about the Divine, we’re talking about something that exists beyond the limitations of time and space, something far greater than what the human mind can even begin to comprehend. The ancient Gnostics, for example, referred to God as the Ineffable Father, because you can’t explain Him with the limitations of language – the minute you do, you’re setting up limitations that don’t actually exist for Him. Of course, as humans, we have to find some way to talk about Him, so His nature is expressed in a wide variety of ways… which leads to many different religious philosophies. Likewise, we need some way to connect to Him, through prayer, ritual, etc… So praxis comes in many different forms. One theory or practice might resonate with one person, but does absolutely nothing for someone else; yet they’re both still striving to connect with their ultimate Source. It doesn’t matter how we define God, or what we call Him. What matters is that we find a way to connect with Him, whether that be through Catholicism, Methodism, Lutheranism, Paganism, Hinduism… whatever.

I’ll be straightforward, I’m clergy in a Christian Gnostic church; I was raised Protestant; I converted to Catholicism as a teenager and still somewhat identify with my Catholicity; *and *I practiced Wicca for several years. In all that time, I was searching for Truth; and I was convinced of the truth of each those religions (as far as I could tell!) at the time I was practicing them. At no time, however, was I ever separated from God – I was still connecting with the same Ineffable God, no matter what I called Him, or what the outward trappings were.

I’d originally wanted to quote part of this passage from the Gospel of Philip in response to someone’s suggestion that the Trinity was a 4th century belief, because it illustrates that at least some Christians already held a belief in the Trinity prior to that (it’s far more explicit about Trinitarian belief than any of the canonical gospels!). But I think quoting a bit more of it illustrates Truth even better:

Truth has to come into the world in a form that people are able to receive it… For some they find Truth in Christianity, others find it in Paganism, still others find it in Islam. For me, Gnosticism has answered more of the questions I’ve had than any other religion. That’s not to say that it’s right for everyone, but it works for me! The real point is to connect with the Divine, somehow. But to say that only one religion describes ineffable truths accurately, is not only a bit arrogant, but it puts limitations on God that don’t actually exist.

(Sorry for the ridiculously long response, I’m not very good at being concise, haha!) Pax!

I believe, so it is the truth? If many believe so, it is so? …So if I believe in God, God is real. If I do not believe in God, there is no God? Does that make it a truth?

any truth -can be centered on what one believes and then integrates that knowledge into one’s heart and actions, which is part of a belief and having faith that involves free will choices and a certain amount of privacy to be able to choose. Since you had turn to become Christian - that was your free choice that others in your group may or may not be able to make so easily.

Similarly my understanding of God is not 100% but that doesn’t mean my faith will remain limitless. As we know, that in time it will grow but for right now it only exists to my limited knowledge - as the scripture says “5 The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!”6 He replied, “If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and planted in the sea,’ and it will obey you.” Is belief defined by knowledge and faith in the level of confidence that approaches that certainty.

For example: I’m sitting in a room alone and I hear a noise coming from the outside of the door because I used my physical senses I believe what I heard. So where does faith (in what I heard) come to play, when I open the door to confirm what I heard or even when I trust my instinct.

The main thought, is that truths is what one believes and then integrates that knowledge into one’s heart and actions. First the soul, then the spirit and last the physical sense in the mind - as our Lord said “First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.” - that’s what makes the truth a truth.

 

[MorningSong51]

Do you understand the difference between belief and truth?

Everything that is of a belief and of the truth from the Christian perspective isn’t the same as with the Wiccans, it isn’t geared the same way when it comes to another religion - especially if they don’t practice it - if they did then it would be a different story altogether. What we understand to be truths (absolute) may not be for another. Your coming in with the thought that they understand, accept and act upon it with faith - and they don’t. Our truths center on a belief that has been taught, educated, highly promoted within our own families, and this faith & belief is a continuation to our children. These truths that we know are based upon our own good experiences and have been embedded into our everyday life - look around you, things are changing…Isaiah 5:20 “How horrible it will be for those who call evil good and good evil, who turn darkness into light and light into darkness, who turn what is bitter into something sweet.” Isn’t that how we understand this?

 

[LemonAndLime]

This will vary depending on who you talk to, a reconstructionist Pagan might say something like:

This is what my ancestors have been doing for centuries (based on primary source material, archaeological evidence, and scholarly articles regarding this practice) or “This is as close as I can get to what my ancestors were doing,” which is also based on the above mentioned sources.

A Wiccan might say that they perform a ritual a certain way because they’re part of a lineage that has done it a certain way.

But the simplest explanation is that the gods have made it known (through dreams, during prayer, from an analysis of their particular cults) that they want to be worshiped a certain way.

Of course, sometimes a practice just “works”.

Hmm, interesting. Thank you.

In pagan “culture” are certain forms of paganism considered more valid than others? Are you a united front, are their aspects you all agree on?

 

[Lokabrenna]

Hmm, interesting. Thank you.

In pagan “culture” are certain forms of paganism considered more valid than others? Are you a united front, are their aspects you all agree on?

Trying to get a bunch of Pagans to agree (never mind individuals within the same Pagan religion) on anything is like herding cats. There have been attempts to find common ground, but they’ve all fallen apart. It isn’t like an ecumenical event among Christians, where everyone can at least agree that Jesus was a pretty cool guy, it’s more like a microcosm of an interfaith event. I know I’ve been using the term “Paganism” in a way that might seem like it’s a single unified tradition, but the fact is that I’m actually discussing many different religions that fall under the Pagan umbrella.

I will say that there is a near universal dislike of “fluff bunnies”, but no one can seem to agree to an exact definition of a fluffy bunny. (In general, the term is used for someone who chooses to be Pagan ‘because its cool’, or the type of person who reads one book and then thinks they can be High Priestess of their own coven.) I hang around with more reconstructionist types (Heathens, mostly) and some of them think all Wiccans are fluff bunnies. Some non-recons think all recons are stuffy academics, so there are definitely stereotypes that exist between groups, but I would say that most of the conflict takes place within the individual religions. You might hear the phrase “witch wars” thrown around among Wiccans (both traditional and eclectic) which refers to debates like whether it’s acceptable to “self-initiate” oneself into the tradition or whether adherents must be initiated by a coven (preferably one that can trace its lineage back to Gardner, but there are lineages that claim to be older).

I’ll use an example that’s a bit closer to “home” for me. There is currently a heated debate among Heathens (and other people who worship Heathen gods) over whether jotun (giant) worship is acceptable. The majority opinion is that the jotnar (with some exceptions) are not to be worshiped, as they are: a) destructive forces and be b) beings that were never worshiped by ancient Heathens. However, there is a minority that disagrees with these assertions, and will perform rituals to beings like Loki (opinions of him in “mainstream” Heathen groups tend to range from ambivalent to hostile). However, since each kindred (group of Heathens) is independent, there’s no one who goes around and says “this practice is not Heathen, stop it now”, but the jotun-honouring groups might not be welcome in certain Heathen organizations. So there are definitely internal schisms, but there’s not as much conflict between different Pagan religions.

 

[Legal_Eagle]

So then “truth” is whatever we “believe” it to be? What about the word “reality?”. Does reality change with our beliefs?