Ask a Pagan (Again!)

[Lokabrenna]

So then “truth” is whatever we “believe” it to be? What about the word “reality?”. Does reality change with our beliefs?

I would say that reality itself doesn’t change, but how one views reality does change. Some will disagree and say for instance that our thoughts do change reality. I think that most people would accept that no matter how badly someone wants to be able to fly unassisted by machinery, the reality is that we aren’t built like birds. Some belief systems do have the concept of a “spiritual” body, however, which isn’t bound by the laws of physics, but that’s a little different.

 

[GaryTaylor]

So then “truth” is whatever we “believe” it to be? What about the word “reality?”. Does reality change with our beliefs?

Reality becomes a “comparison” of relevance. Not a great argument when viewed objectively. Its then a comparsion of lets say,… a chimp and a man.

Or that many same paintings portray the same image. Yet the truth is they all have a different construction of materials and pigments, and are somwhat the same.

To take the reality to faith or belief its like this.

The fundemental difference between all religion or belief is one comes to show the way to raise one up to the Gods or Truth, Christianity works in reverse. Its God who came down to man.

It is Jesus Christ who descended for man and stated I AM GOD. Where I go, I will return, so you can be where I am. Peace

 

[MorningSong51]

So then “truth” is whatever we “believe” it to be? What about the word “reality?”. Does reality change with our beliefs?

We “believe” is expressed verbally at mass in the Nicene creed, this to be the absolute truth, we have faith as faith stands for the habit or virtue by which we assent to those truths (those truths are internalized within us) that knowledge is integrated into our heart and actions. Actions - from those truths, the biggest is how you will act upon those truths. In a biblical sense, we will do and then understand or understand than do - to internalize those beliefs. When the rich man came to Jesus, he asked "“Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” Jesus told the rich man “20You know the commandments” - ‘Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.’ What was it that the rich man couldn’t do? Jesus reply "“You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” - It is in the “come follow me” - One believes but one must have faith to follow and trust, those are truths - absolutely!

Actions speak louder than words…First clean the inside of the cup…to quote, ” We should tend to our soul and make sure the intentions behind our actions are holy motivations. We need to check our heart frequently so that we can work with purity of intention. Sometimes we work only to present an appearance to others, to appear virtuous and holy, but inside we are filled with negative judgments, such as lack of charity. Virtue comes from within the heart of a person, where the Spirit dwells and inspires as he wills. We need to be attentive to the Holy Spirit and follow his lead."Catholic.net - Catholics on the net

My question back to you, which tends to be an opposite - is how can you (as a Christian) ask a person who considers themselves Wiccan or as they used the term on the title thread “Ask a Pagan” what they consider belief and truths to be? They would have to be totally different from the Christian perspective - The term “pagan” originated as the Latin paganus, which was used amongst early Christians in southern Europe to refer to those who were neither Christian nor Jewish - they encountered the wide variety of non-monotheistic religious traditions. (paganus to refer to those people who were not worshipers of a monotheistic God (thereby not being either Jews or Christians)

 

[MorningSong51]

Well, in my opinion, no one can definitively say what is “Truth” (capital ‘t’ truth) when it comes to religious beliefs. As both I and amber_lux have said, Pagans reject the notion that there is such a thing as universal truth, beliefs, however, are plentiful.

Yes they can when it comes to a religious belief. Would you doubt your own beliefs as a Pagan or Wiccan. You would have to have some certain amount of truths within your own group - why would you engage in the rituals. The actions of those rituals that you or others participate will embody you into the community - as a whole. Do you realize when you are participating into those rituals - what you’re doing? I listed the definitions - I know you are aware of them and how they affect you inside? emotionally? or the community as a whole? You may quarrel about how these rituals are being demonstrated but never the less - you believe in what you are doing. Those are your truths - but they can change.

You reject the idea of a monotheistic religion - only one God, not many. I remember awhile back, my grandmother - on my father’s side, who was very angry with me, invited me to come over for dinner. After dinner, we both sat down to talk about our disagreements - as we were talking, she bursted out loud that she knew a witch. You have to understand that my grandmother was born and raised in the south - and witches were a common. You mention Louisiana - yet, in the south there are many states who had to deal with the witches (or so, Wiccans). What I cry about, is that she was my grandmother. Since then, we never talked until my son was born. At that time she was in nursering home and I came see her. My grandmother got to see her grandson before she died. The point that I’m making with you, Wiccan or Witches, should 'not" have to be used for family disagreements or fights - you don’t profit from it, then it isn’t a religion - is it? What you tell others to do - only reinforces, rituals according to your standards. When Christians are being attacked - we use Wiccan methods?

So where are the truths? We seek them in our faith.

 

[amber_lux]

Are you a united front, are their aspects you all agree on?

Neither pagans nor neo-pagans have a definition of their term, that everybody agrees on. So you have groups as different from each other as The Temple of Set, The Reformed Druids of North America, and Church and School of Wicca under its umbrella.

Amber

 

[amber_lux]

Would you doubt your own beliefs as a Pagan or Wiccan.

Whilst not everybody agrees that he is pagan, Aleister Crowley wrote about his doubts in the validity of Thelema. OTOH, he skewered everybody, and everything.

You would have to have some certain amount of truths within your own group - why would you engage in the rituals.

The pagan community has a history of sexual permissiveness, and sexual promiscuity that few other groups have. One consequence of that, is the belief by some men that if they do the ritual, they will be laid. (It doesn’t work that way, but some men won’t give up that illusionary belief.)

Amber

 

[CompSciGuy]

Sometimes 2+2 does not equal 4. There’s a whole branch of philosophical math where there’s more than one answer to a question. I was very good at that sort of math!

The other things that you mentioned can be scientifically tested in controlled conditions. I can prove that water is made up of particular particles. If religious claims were provable, there would be no need to have so many religions.

The fact that God cannot be scientifically tested doesn’t mean that God is whatever we want him to be. God either is or is not. Each of us has a reason why we believe in the God that we do. These reasons are based on evidence. What we’re having a hard time understanding is why believe in something for which there is no evidence.

The notion that there is “one truth” that applies to everyone isn’t something that most (if any) Pagans believe.

I see this as anti-intellectual. I respect pagans as human beings with a right to their beliefs but I cannot take their beliefs seriously for this reason. You may say that I am arrogant for thinking that truth is absolute and my beliefs are the truth, but to me, to say that truth differs from person to person and is subject to our wants and desires is the epitome of human arrogance. I find relativism, especially with regards to morality, to be atrocious and cowardly. It is of no use to anyone and doesn’t accomplish anything.

I do not agree with my Muslim friends and their theology, but I can at least respect them because they at least have the guts to admit to me “I think you are wrong about what you believe.” They are able to recognize that truth does not change from person to person, and recognize that both of our understandings of the truth are incompatible with each other. As opposed to a relativist who says “I just want everyone to be happy la la la everyone is right, nobody is wrong, hooray for everyone!”

 

[Barbkw]

Pagans believe whatever they wish to believe and do whatever they wish to do. In actuality paganism is a life choice - and not a religion.

Rather like the decision to use artificial contraception - it’s a life choice to be against conception.

From discussions I’ve had with pagans online, I’ve found that all were raised as Christians.
Their lifestyles (to do as they wish) eventually required both their complete separation from and rejection of Christ.

Their rejection of Christ revolved around four areas: unchastity, contraception, abortion and homosexuality.

Like Eve, those pagan women wished to be their own goddess - living outside of any external control - and particularly any external control by men.

The pagan women I spoke with worshiped Gaia (Mother Earth), and any number of other deities (so long as they were not male).

True to form, they placed great importance on wildlife, pets, tree, etc. Yet they held no sanctity of life for unborn children in the womb…

They all were militant feminists who activiely cooperated in the growth of and spread of abortion.

 

[Lokabrenna]

Pagans believe whatever they wish to believe and do whatever they wish to do. In actuality paganism is a life choice - and not a religion.

Is this the same sort of thing that certain Protestants say when they claim they have a “relationship” with Jesus Christ, not a “religion”, it makes about as much sense.

Rather like the decision to use artificial contraception - it’s a life choice to be against conception.

I’ll have to take your word for it.

From discussions I’ve had with pagans online, I’ve found that all were raised as Christians.
Their lifestyles (to do as they wish) eventually required both their complete separation from and rejection of Christ.

Well, yes, simple logic says that when you embrace one faith, you reject another (unless you live in Japan, where many claim to adhere to multiple religions).

Their rejection of Christ revolved around four areas: unchastity, contraception, abortion and homosexuality.

I’m still chaste, thank you, but many of us had other issues besides those four.

Like Eve, those pagan women wished to be their own goddess - living outside of any external control - and particularly any external control by men.

I have two brothers and a father and I love them very much. No one has the right to control anyone, externally or otherwise.

The pagan women I spoke with worshiped Gaia (Mother Earth), and any number of other deities (so long as they were not male).

Not everyone worships Gaia or is a Goddess monotheist.

True to form, they placed great importance on wildlife, pets, tree, etc. Yet they held no sanctity of life for unborn children in the womb.

Yeah, and most Pagans would say that the decision to abort is a personal choice.

They all were militant feminists who activiely cooperated in the growth of and spread of abortion.

Well, I’m a feminist, and I’m personally for fewer abortions. I’d like to live in a world where no abortions occurred. I disagree with “pro-lifers” as to how to attain that goal.

 

[Barbkw]

Well, I’m a feminist, and I’m personally for fewer abortions…

Most forms of contraception are also abortafacients.

How many fewer children do you want to see killed in the womb?

Annually worldwide, the range is somewhere close to 46 million dead children.

 

[Andromedus]

The picture is that you are incapable of envisioning a Universe where Either/Both exist, and are simultaneously both True and False.

I would say that Truth is objective and not relative and therefore, for example, there can not be one god and more than one god at the same time from a monotheistic perspective, which makes monotheism false or correct. People can have different views on a subject and there might be a whole bunch of theories about something but there is still only one truth, whatever people thinks of it. It might of course be so that it is impossible to actually know this truth, but it is still the truth whether we know it or not. Therefore Mohammad can not be a prophet and an un-prophet at the same time, someone has to be wrong, we can discus who. Relativism can be good in some forms since it might make you understand that there can be more than one view and therefore you might be able to talk with someone who thinks different. However, to say that there is more than one truth, truth with capital T, is not a good idea and it might even be dangerous. Did the holocaust happen but at the same time also not happen? Can we write in a history book that it didn’t happen and still say that the book is scientific? Should we teach Intelligent design in schools when the children is supposed to learn about real natural science? What about astrology and alchemy? etc etc.

Pagan theology allows an individual to believe whatever they wish to believe, regardless of how absurd, bizarre, or ridiculous the belief is. The limitation is in expecting to others to believe as you do, simply on your say so.

I assume that you already know this, but just for the sake of pointing it out, there are Pagans who would think that you are wrong about this, it depends on what ‘‘Pagan theology’’ you have. Paganism is after all not even ‘‘one’’ religion but many. Though I am already quite certain you know this I think some other people don’t. And I did not mean Pagans with ‘‘some other people’’, but there might perhaps be some pagans like that too, I don’t know.

Pagans believe whatever they wish to believe and do whatever they wish to do. In actuality paganism is a life choice - and not a religion.

That depends on what sort of Paganism you are talking about, even more so when we think about the fact that there is more than one difference between Paganism and Neo-Paganism. It is definitely not ‘‘a religion’’, there is a whole bunch of Pagan religions. The original meaning of the word is after all that it is a religion which is not Jewish or Christian. And Paganism is more than a life choice, at least according to me.

 

[MorningSong51]

Whilst not everybody agrees that he is pagan, Aleister Crowley wrote about his doubts in the validity of Thelema. OTOH, he skewered everybody, and everything.

Amber, alright so what are you saying here? You doubt the truths of the group by what this man writes or because you know that there are some false truths to the group by what you are witnessing for yourself? You know what the differences are between the two questions - one sees the truth and lies and on the other hand, the other finds out by further knowledge of the group by an educated knowledge of it. I have to quote this scriptural point with you! Luke 11, and I want you to understand the point - I know that Christ makes us very aware of the darkness of light, that seems to be like a truth but its not "When your eyes are healthy, your whole body also is full of light. But when they are unhealthy, your body also is full of darkness. 35 See to it, then, that the light within you is not darkness. 36 Therefore, if your whole body is full of light, and no part of it dark, it will be just as full of light as when a lamp shines its light on you.” This I believe, was Eve’s deception - at the time. The darkness is very dangerous! You don’t know how far you’ll go within rituals of the group - and you won’t be able to control it.

Question? Can you leave the community without any repercussions? You know in a marriage there are truths and there lies, woman find themselves caught in between the truths and lies of a relationship - they stay in it for several reasons but after a while the emotional and closeness end catches up with them and they find themselves stuck, unable to leave. So they live in a lie, until one day they see for themselves what it does to them - and they get old. What is the normal age of a group member? How long have you been in the group - at what age? and what is the youngest member age? are there children who perform these same sexual rituals?.. Do you call them truths? If you can’t call them truths- then you live a lie…

 

[MorningSong51]

Most forms of contraception are also abortafacients.

How many fewer children do you want to see killed in the womb?

Annually worldwide, the range is somewhere close to 46 million dead children.

Barbkw,

46 million dead children - how many are physically abused by these members? and sexually?

 

[Warrenton]

The Arians were not the only non-Trinitarians prior to Nicea.

This is true - indeed, before Arianism, the opposite error was common, that Christ’s humanity was a figment.

The picture is that you are incapable of envisioning a Universe where Either/Both exist, and are simultaneously both True and False.

The problem on a practical level is that if we admit a universe where any contradictions can exist side by side, we beggar discussion.

I could, for instance, reply that I am both capable and incapable of envisioning the universe you propose, or don’t propose.

At that point, what is the good of disucssing anything?

Ritual is a psychological exercise based upon internal axioms. In ritual,the beliefs underlying the practice are what makes, or breaks the ritual.

Pagan theology allows an individual to believe whatever they wish to believe, regardless of how absurd, bizarre, or ridiculous the belief is. The limitation is in expecting to others to believe as you do, simply on your say so.

Is this true? One reviews paganism, and what really jumps out is the practical nature of the thing. Pagans didn’t believe in the holiness of poverty, or for that matter, charity because neither are practical. Pagans understood the pleasure of sexual contact and the importance of begetting children, and they worshipped gods who would help them in those endeavors, which is all quite reasonable.

There was a diversity of method, just as one may select from a multitude of roads, and still get to Rome. Many rituals the pagans had, but the purpse was the same.

 

[Barbkw]

Barbkw,

46 million dead children - how many are physically abused by these members? and sexually?

How many of the 46 million aborted children were physically abused by their mothers?

All.

 

[MorningSong51]

How many of the 46 million aborted children were physically abused by their mothers?

All.

…now I’m in shock! I just took a look at the percentage rate of wiccans and pagans in the United States and abroad:

In surveys, contemporary pagans are usually classified under the heading of New Religious Movements and “other religions,” which includes everything from Scientologists to Spiritualists. According to the American Religious Identification Survey, members of “other religions” and New Religious Movements went from 1.3 million in 1990 to 1.8 million in 2001 to 2.8 million in 2008.

Specifically, the number of Wiccans more than doubled from 2001 to 2008, from 134,000 to 342,000, and the same held true for neo-pagans, who went from 140,000 in 2001 to 340,000 in 2008.

Experts say the growth reflects not only increasing numbers of neo-pagans, but also a rise in the social acceptability of paganism. As a result, more respondents would be willing to identify themselves as followers of some pagan tradition. They also note that identification surveys do not fully measure the influence of neo-paganism. Many people use two or more religious identifiers — calling themselves Unitarian and Druid, for example — while others might adopt certain neo-pagan practices without calling themselves neo-pagan.

religionlink.com/tip_091020.php

Another article will back what I said to Amber:

Jones touches on some very good points here. There have been many people who have practiced various aspects of the occult and have had dealings with spirits, but at some point or another, **have felt that they no longer have control over the forces which they call upon, but rather, they themselves are being swept along by forces beyond their control. **This was certainly my own experience, and has been the experience of countless others, who’s experiences I have also heard. The truth is, that these spirits are highly intelligent and powerful evil spirit beings who are intent on manipulating and deceiving humanity, and leading people away from the true freedom and salvation which is to be found in Jesus Christ.

 

[Lokabrenna]

Question? Can you leave the community without any repercussions? What is the normal age of a group member? How long have you been in the group - at what age? and what is the youngest member age? are there children who perform these same sexual rituals?.. Do you call them truths? If you can’t call them truths- then you live a lie…

 

[John7]

I wasn’t intending to post a part three as I’m pretty sure I’ve answered most (if not all) of the most common questions folks have regarding Paganism(s), and given the reactions of some people to the last thread (something about “cleansing the site of Satanism”) and such, I bet some people are sick of me and my attempts to enter dialogue with people/clear up some HUGE misconceptions, but I had fun last time and I think the two threads spawned some interesting discussions.

I notice there’s an interesting discussion re: the gods going on on the apologetics board, but I like to steer clear of that area as Catholic apologetics is (obviously) not my area of expertise.

So, as I said, I’m not sure if anyone has any questions that I haven’t already answered, but if that is the case, shoot! (And don’t say: “I hope this doesn’t offend you,” it won’t lol.)

how do you answer this question?

“how can YOU escape the damnation of hell?” (Christ, Mat 23)

ps, doesn’t matter if YOU believe in it or not,
truth/reality is that its the ultimate destination of the wicked

 

[Contarini]

how do you answer this question?

“how can YOU escape the damnation of hell?” (Christ, Mat 23)

Speaking, it should be noted, to highly religious and orthodox people who prided themselves on their exclusive relationship with God. . . .

So perhaps you and I are the ones who should answer the question?

 

[LemonAndLime]

how do you answer this question?

“how can YOU escape the damnation of hell?” (Christ, Mat 23)

ps, doesn’t matter if YOU believe in it or not,
truth/reality is that its the ultimate destination of the wicked

Harsh though, dude. Not going to win friends like that!