Ask a Pagan (Again!)

[Lokabrenna]

Thank you for such a clear answer.

It highlights a basic difference between our belief systems.

Based on your answer, one would expect a much closer correlation between a medieval Catholic and modern one than between a medieval pagan and a modern one.

Well, which time period one is trying to reconstruct varies, but I’d say what you’ve said is true. Then again, the development of the old faiths was “interrupted” so who knows what pagan religions would have looked like if they had as much time to grow as, say, Hinduism.

 

[Captain_America]

For Joe and PR: I see the “pagan” thing as a cultural consumerism. It’s fun to wear the dresses! It’s fun to talk medieval! Some people wish they lived through the Civil War; they go out, buy the gear, perhaps develop a “persona” or second life notion, and become Civil War reenacters. The pagans that I have met just like the trappings so much, PLUS the “outcast unity” that develops (as well, for some, a sense of intellectual snobbery or superiority: THEY have studied spiritual things, whereas Mr. Average Joe just accepts what was doled out to him by his–ek!-parents!)

To some extent, the appeal is similar to the appeal of the Rosicrucians or carriers of “esoteric knowledge”; to really KNOW real KNOWLEDGE you have to be with the in-crowd.

The great and convenient thing about paganism is its essential anti-intellectualism: a pagan can never be challenged by another pagan or Gentile; it’s live and let live; my zen is your karma is your good will is your charity, etc. No really hard stuff there to rub up against in the end. It’s a warm bath for everybody, which does give a sense of peace and unity, to be true, but at the cost of obfuscating serious questions.

I doubt a society of true pagans could survive.

Oh, here’s one for the OP: if there are many, many Gods, of different abilities, are humans superior to any particular kinds of Gods? Are some Gods totally good, some totally evil? And how can you actually TELL?

Heck, why not the question: does evil actually exist?

 

[Lokabrenna]

Can you give me an example of evidence that your Nordic god/goddess wouldn’t ever demand that you continue in a pregnancy? You say that there’s a lot of lore that’s merely entertainment, so I guess we should dismiss those writings.

The lore is not “just” entertainment (although it is that) in the same way that Jesus’ parables weren’t just entertainment. Their purpose was to tell the people about their gods, to teach the next generation about their values. Unfortunately, since the tribes had an oral culture, the best known written material that we have was written down by Snorri Sturluson, who was a Christian. It’s a bit like trying to understand what Christians believed in if they only text we had to go by was something written by Dawkins. We also have reports from other writers like Tacitus and Ibn Fadlan, but they too have their own cultural biases.

You say that there is textual evidence as well as archeological evidence that supports how you know this? Can you provide sources for this?

Ah, I see why you might be confused. Let me back up a bit. The texts provide us with certain bits of information (that horses were sacrificed to Freyr) but other things are pure speculation (a popular term for this is UPG–Unverified Personal Gnosis). There are things that we simply cannot know from looking at the texts alone. I’ll use a less complicated example: It is generally accepted that Freya likes to receive strawberries as an offering, obviously, strawberries aren’t found in Northern Europe, but since so many people have reported that she accepts them when they offer them to her, it’s become more or less “canon” (and it seems appropriate, given that strawberries are heart-shaped, sweet, and go well with chocolate, seems like it might make for a good offering for a love goddess).

Also keep in mind that, as I mentioned, certain cultures didn’t necessarily view certain issues in the same way that we would. Homosexuality, for instance, had more to do with who was “on top” than any “ick” factor. There’s an Icelandic hero named Grettir who allegedly slept with “maidens and widows, everyone’s wives, farmers’ sons, deans and courtiers, abbots and abbesses, cows and calves, indeed with near all living creatures,” and no one seems to really care that much (although these days, we would have arrested him for pedophilia and bestiality).

Doesn’t it seem a bit like you’re projecting your own views upon these gods/goddesses? Aren’t they entities of their own thoughts/ideas?

They are their own entities, true, but if any of them have a problem with certain issues, they haven’t told me either way. I personally think that if any deity REALLY had a problem with a certain person based on something they professed, then they just wouldn’t bother engaging with that person.

This talk of “projection” reminds me of “Republican Jesus”, maybe you’ve seen this cartoon before: cmoore.com/gallery/albums/uploads/news/Cartoon20041116.gif It seems to me that that Jesus isn’t like the Jesus I encountered in Catholic school. I think it’s a given when texts are so open to interpretation. I think it’s natural to want “a deity who looks like you” to quote The Secret Life of Bees but it seems I forgot my own words about gods not necessarily taking sides.

 

[Lokabrenna]

To some extent, the appeal is similar to the appeal of the Rosicrucians or carriers of “esoteric knowledge”; to really KNOW real KNOWLEDGE you have to be with the in-crowd.

I find that funny, because that doesn’t describe my particular tradition at all (nor the majority of reconstructionist belief systems). You can easily find all our rituals on the 'net or in books, no in-crowd required. I suspect you might have run into individuals who are part of a mystery tradition (like Wicca) in which certain things are not to be revealed to non-initiates (although you can still find lots of info all over the place).

The great and convenient thing about paganism is its essential anti-intellectualism: a pagan can never be challenged by another pagan or Gentile; it’s live and let live; my zen is your karma is your good will is your charity, etc. No really hard stuff there to rub up against in the end. It’s a warm bath for everybody, which does give a sense of peace and unity, to be true, but at the cost of obfuscating serious questions.

You’ve obviously never been to a Heathen moot! I’ve never met a more argumentative bunch of people! Although their take is more “Do what you want–just don’t call it Heathenry, 'cause it isn’t!”

Oh, here’s one for the OP: if there are many, many Gods, of different abilities, are humans superior to any particular kinds of Gods?

Superior in terms of power and scope? I don’t think, that’s why we call them gods, after all!

Are some Gods totally good, some totally evil? And how can you actually TELL?

No god is completely good or completely evil. Some gods are more inclined to help humans, others would prefer it if we left them alone for the most part.

Heck, why not the question: does evil actually exist?

Sure it does, but there’s no one particular entity who is to blame for evil actions, humans are perfectly capable of being cruel to each other on their own. Although, perhaps the definition of evil depends somewhat on where you happen to be standing at the time (the whole terrorist vs. freedom fighter thing).

 

[PRmerger]

The lore is not “just” entertainment (although it is that) in the same way that Jesus’ parables weren’t just entertainment. Their purpose was to tell the people about their gods, to teach the next generation about their values. Unfortunately, since the tribes had an oral culture, the best known written material that we have was written down by Snorri Sturluson, who was a Christian. It’s a bit like trying to understand what Christians believed in if they only text we had to go by was something written by Dawkins. We also have reports from other writers like Tacitus and Ibn Fadlan, but they too have their own cultural biases.

Ok.

So when you say that you don’t believe that any of the gods/goddesses that you worship would ever challenge you to continue in a pregnancy you know this how?

Originally Posted by **Lokabrenna **
Well, I couldn’t picture any goddess demanding that I keep a child conceived by rape (which is what it would be since I’m not interested in men)

I just don’t see how you know what the gods/goddesses would tell you about this situation–given that you have nothing more than lore (entertainment notwithstanding), and, it appears, no archeological evidence that this deity had any kind of paradigm about continuing in a pregnancy.

Could you please explain, specifically, what information you received from these entitites that tells you that you ought not keep a child you have conceived?

 

[PRmerger]

Ah, I see why you might be confused. Let me back up a bit. The texts provide us with certain bits of information (that horses were sacrificed to Freyr) but other things are pure speculation (a popular term for this is UPG–Unverified Personal Gnosis). There are things that we simply cannot know from looking at the texts alone. I’ll use a less complicated example: It is generally accepted that Freya likes to receive strawberries as an offering, obviously, strawberries aren’t found in Northern Europe, but since so many people have reported that she accepts them when they offer them to her, it’s become more or less “canon” (and it seems appropriate, given that strawberries are heart-shaped, sweet, and go well with chocolate, seems like it might make for a good offering for a love goddess).

Also keep in mind that, as I mentioned, certain cultures didn’t necessarily view certain issues in the same way that we would. Homosexuality, for instance, had more to do with who was “on top” than any “ick” factor. There’s an Icelandic hero named Grettir who allegedly slept with “maidens and widows, everyone’s wives, farmers’ sons, deans and courtiers, abbots and abbesses, cows and calves, indeed with near all living creatures,” and no one seems to really care that much (although these days, we would have arrested him for pedophilia and bestiality).

Very interesting. The above is a non-sequitur, but I appreciate the stories. Quite entertaining and engaging, really!

But it doesn’t answer my question as to how you know that no gods/goddesses would demand that you continue a pregnancy.

Do you see why I’m persisting in this, Loka?

Think about this.

You have no evidence whatsoever, based on how many times I’ve asked you to provide some, that any gods/goddesses wouldn’t tell you to continue in a pregnancy.

Yet you are quite confident in proferring: “Originally Posted by Lokabrenna
Well, I couldn’t picture any goddess demanding that I keep a child conceived by rape (which is what it would be since I’m not interested in men).”

This limns quite trenchantly the problem with paganism–it’s entirely made up. * “I have no evidence that a god/goddess would say , but since I believe in I’m going to say that the gods/goddesses proclaim .”*

Any thinking person can understand that if there are truly divine entities of their own making, with their own thoughts and ideas, then, they’re going to demand at least a few things that are contrary to a worshippers’ belief/practice system.

Yet, it seems, in paganism, no such demands are ever made.

Things that should make you go, “Hmmm…”

 

[PRmerger]

This talk of “projection” reminds me of “Republican Jesus”, maybe you’ve seen this cartoon before: cmoore.com/gallery/albums/uploads/news/Cartoon20041116.gif

Heh. Funny.

It seems to me that that Jesus isn’t like the Jesus I encountered in Catholic school.

Absolutely not!

 

[PRmerger]

The great and convenient thing about paganism is its essential anti-intellectualism: a pagan can never be challenged by another pagan or Gentile; it’s live and let live; my zen is your karma is your good will is your charity, etc. No really hard stuff there to rub up against in the end. It’s a warm bath for everybody, which does give a sense of peace and unity, to be true, but at the cost of obfuscating serious questions.

Indeed. There is no god/goddess that happens to challenge a worshipper to change her morality.

Its simply magical that the gods/goddesses happen to agree with the worshipper on every issue of importance. How convenient!

 

[Andromedus]

It is generally accepted that Freya likes to receive strawberries as an offering, obviously, strawberries aren’t found in Northern Europe, but since so many people have reported that she accepts them when they offer them to her, it’s become more or less “canon” (and it seems appropriate, given that strawberries are heart-shaped, sweet, and go well with chocolate, seems like it might make for a good offering for a love goddess).

How do you mean? During the times when Paganism was the most common religion in Northern Europe or today? Because if it is the later we do have strawberries, perhaps not this time of the year but when it is a bit warmer.

Sorry for being off-topic.

 

[Lokabrenna]

How do you mean? During the times when Paganism was the most common religion in Northern Europe or today? Because if it is the later we do have strawberries, perhaps not this time of the year but when it is a bit warmer.

Sorry for being off-topic.

I meant during the former, nowadays we can grow all kinds of crops in places where the crops aren’t native.

Another example is chocolate, lots of deities like chocolate, but it wasn’t brought to Europe until Christianity was the dominant religion. There was a joke in my religion and food class, that went “All deities like sweets,” because in every single example we came across, the deity/spirit was traditionally given sweets as an offering. (My professor had a picture of a statue of the Buddha surrounded by PILES of sweets, though technically he’s not a god).

 

[PRmerger]

I meant during the former, nowadays we can grow all kinds of crops in places where the crops aren’t native.

Another example is chocolate, lots of deities like chocolate, but it wasn’t brought to Europe until Christianity was the dominant religion. There was a joke in my religion and food class, that went “All deities like sweets,” because in every single example we came across, the deity/spirit was traditionally given sweets as an offering. (My professor had a picture of a statue of the Buddha surrounded by PILES of sweets, though technically he’s not a god).

Heh. And, again, this segues nicely with my point: all deities like what humans like because, well, we’ve been projecting ourselves onto them.

 

[Contarini]

It is generally accepted that Freya likes to receive strawberries as an offering, obviously, strawberries aren’t found in Northern Europe

Really? Ingmar Bergman references them in at least two of his movies (they’re in the title of one, which I haven’t seen, and they feature movingly in Seventh Seal as well), and this article says that they are “northern Europe’s favorite summer crop”!

 

[Captain_America]

I appreciate the OP’s persistence and willingness to explain her take on things, but the tough questions or hard questions are something I’m not seeing here in her philosophy. I guess I’m not seeing philosophy, so much as I see brush-offs of tough questions possible though this approach (can’t call it particularly conceptually deep).

At any rate, it’s fun!

 

[PRmerger]

It would really decrease my skepticism of paganism if a pagan would profess, "Well, my deity has revealed to me that he wants manure to be offered at my home altar, so we do indeed offer that to him daily at our house. I confess that it does make visitors a rare entity at our home, but that’s what my deity wants. "

Loka? Has anyone ever done that at the bidding of the gods? Or something equally repugnant?

 

[Lokabrenna]

It would really decrease my skepticism of paganism if a pagan would profess, "Well, my deity has revealed to me that he wants manure to be offered at my home altar, so we do indeed offer that to him daily at our house. I confess that it does make visitors a rare entity at our home, but that’s what my deity wants. "

Loka? Has anyone ever done that at the bidding of the gods? Or something equally repugnant?

I’ve heard that Hel likes for food offerings to be left until they’ve rotted (she’s in charge of the dead, so it makes sense), depends on the deity though.

Some other odd offerings I’ve heard of:

Apollo: Sunny Delight
Loki: Fireworks, Hot sauce, marshmallow peeps and Tang
Durga/Kali: Raw meat (this was one my professor saw when he was in India, the idea is that you give the goddess raw meat so she’ll “leave you alone” because she can be quite fierce when she’s having a bad day)
Athena: Chocolate and tampons (I’m assuming unused tampons)
The Morrigan: Tea (specifically tea with some cream, no sugar, and hot, Earl Grey tea is a good choice)
Brighid: French fries

There’s also a traditional offering for the ghede (spirits of the dead) in Vodou where someone will give a person possessed by Papa Ghede rum which contains twenty one hot peppers (!) not generally something a person would drink, but the idea is that if they are truly possessed, the drink won’t affect them. It’s basically a test to see if they’re “faking it”.

Some deities also like blood. Pagans who honour Mesoamerican gods do offer their own blood (drawn safely, I should hope) as an offering. I have a devotional authored by a priestess of Lilith, and she appreciates a blood offering, or red wine for the squeamish. It’s always your own blood though, never anyone else’s, that’s just not safe or particularly ethical.

 

[PRmerger]

I’ve heard that Hel likes for food offerings to be left until they’ve rotted (she’s in charge of the dead, so it makes sense), depends on the deity though.

Some other odd offerings I’ve heard of:

Apollo: Sunny Delight
Loki: Fireworks, Hot sauce, marshmallow peeps and Tang
Durga/Kali: Raw meat (this was one my professor saw when he was in India, the idea is that you give the goddess raw meat so she’ll “leave you alone” because she can be quite fierce when she’s having a bad day)
Athena: Chocolate and tampons (I’m assuming unused tampons)
The Morrigan: Tea (specifically tea with some cream, no sugar, and hot, Earl Grey tea is a good choice)
Brighid: French fries

There’s also a traditional offering for the ghede (spirits of the dead) in Vodou where someone will give a person possessed by Papa Ghede rum which contains twenty one hot peppers (!) not generally something a person would drink, but the idea is that if they are truly possessed, the drink won’t affect them. It’s basically a test to see if they’re “faking it”.

Some deities also like blood. Pagans who honour Mesoamerican gods do offer their own blood (drawn safely, I should hope) as an offering. I have a devotional authored by a priestess of Lilith, and she appreciates a blood offering, or red wine for the squeamish. It’s always your own blood though, never anyone else’s, that’s just not safe or particularly ethical.

Again, quite interesting, but non-sequiturs all.

Do you know anyone who has offered something repugnant to them because the gods commanded it? For example, did that worshipper actually keep the raw meat at her altar? For how long?

 

[Lokabrenna]

Again, quite interesting, but non-sequiturs all.

Do you know anyone who has offered something repugnant to them because the gods commanded it? For example, did that worshipper actually keep the raw meat at her altar? For how long?

The people who left the raw meat were Hindu, who probably wouldn’t identify as Pagan (except as small ‘p’ pagan), but I’d assume that it was either disposed of or cooked and eaten later. (Traditionally, food that is offered to a deity during puja is eaten.)

I should also note that most approach offerings as a sort of trial and error process, especially when they’re first starting out. The gods aren’t always very up front about what they like, although they do traditionally like certain things (apples are a pretty safe bet for Idunna, pork for Freyr, amber/gold for Freya). If it’s within the person’s means to give something, I don’t see why there would be a problem giving it even if it was repulsive, but I’d have to interview every Pagan there is to find you an example. As you can see, most of the offerings I listed are more “odd” than “disgusting”.

 

[TypesAndShadows]

The Morrigan: Tea (specifically tea with some cream, no sugar, and hot, Earl Grey tea is a good choice)

See, here’s the disgusting offering! Who can respect a god who wants cream in their tea rather than milk? Ew ew ew! Case closed, pagan gods do indeed ask for repugnant things

 

[Contarini]

Again, quite interesting, but non-sequiturs all.

Do you know anyone who has offered something repugnant to them because the gods commanded it? For example, did that worshipper actually keep the raw meat at her altar? For how long?

Why is everyone so concerned with this?

I hope the assumption is not that one knows a true deity by the fact that such a being would ask for repugnant things?

Edwin

 

[Captain_America]

Contarini: don’t spoil the fun! It’s a funsie thing; a let’s pretend. Heck, I just saw a pair of fairies whisp behind my computer just now! If you cross your fingers and hold your breath, you CAN make it true!