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PRmerger
Guest
Contarini: don’t spoil the fun! It’s a funsie thing; a let’s pretend. Heck, I just saw a pair of fairies whisp behind my computer just now!If you cross your fingers and hold your breath, you CAN make it true!
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PRmerger
Guest
Actually, the point that is being made is that one knows they are NOT true deities because they only want things that aren’t repugnant for the worshipper to offer.
It reminds me of the Chesterton saying, “That Jones shall worship the god within ultimately means that Jones shall worship Jones.”
The question I’m posing is meant to cause pagans to pause and think, 'Hmmm…am I really worshipping a deity, or just a projection of myself?"
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Contarini
Guest
But repugnant in what way? Why would a deity want things at cross-purposes with human nature?
I think you are on to something, but I worry about the implicit “divine command theory” in your argument, as if the true God’s commands were arbitrary and unrelated to the nature He gave us.
The reason God’s commands are sometimes unpleasant to us is that we are sinful. Since pagans do not believe in original sin, I don’t see why they would expect this.
I think you may be confusing “challenging” with “repugnant.” They aren’t the same thing.
Edwin
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PRmerger
Guest
Fair enough. Perhaps I am confusing “challenging” with “repugnant”.
But I apply the “repugnant” to the offerings that these deities would like.
And “challenging” to moral practices.
IOW: why don’t the gods want manure to be offered at home altars? Why wouldn’t that be something a god may like–especially those partial to horses?
And why has a god never commanded, as far as moral practices, that a worshipper abstain from an illicit sexual liason that the worshipper so desires?
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Captain_America
Guest
Natural law is written in our hearts. For instance, we KNOW there is an ethical principle in the pagan notion of “cause no harm,” but we also know that if the world were filled with multiple gods holding multiple purposes, no one god would really stand out. They would be at cross-purposes, and while one god might say, “cause no harm,” the other might say, “maximize your own pleasure.” And yet a third might opine: “maximize the public good,” while his brother-spirit might chime in, “just do it,” or question, “just what do you mean by ‘harm’ ?”
Where is the final, transcendent, superior god-voice among all the god-options?
Now perhaps the self-identifying pagan here believes there is one superior god, or Zeus of them all. In that case, the lesser deities really have no moral claim to our attention.
Where is the final, transcendent, superior god-voice among all the god-options?
Now perhaps the self-identifying pagan here believes there is one superior god, or Zeus of them all. In that case, the lesser deities really have no moral claim to our attention.
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Lokabrenna
Guest
Perhaps a horse deity might, but why go to all that trouble when carrots and apples are readily available? Better yet, why not volunteer somewhere where you would be taking care of horses? If they want manure, then sure, give them what they want, but maybe all they really want is for someone to take care of their animals.
We are free to make our own decisions (including bad decisions). Also, it depends on your definition of illicit. I think the vast majority of Pagans realize that cheating, pedophilia, and bestiality is wrong and that being very open regarding sexuality isn’t an excuse to do something stupid. Consensual sex between adults is generally not a problem, but would certainly seem ‘illicit’ to certain people.
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Lokabrenna
Guest
Not all Pagans believe this. This is specifically a Wiccan belief, and a very tiny part of the whole rede. In Asatru for instance, there are the Nine Noble Virtues: Courage, Truth, Honour, Fidelity, Discipline, Hospitality, Self Reliance, Industriousness, Perseverance (lists vary, but that one’s most common). There’s nothing in that list about never doing harm.
The short answer is that there is none. Generally a pantheon does have a head deity (Odin, Zeus, El) but even they aren’t all-powerful, and a clever deity can sometimes one-up them.
More like certain gods are more important to certain people. A fisherman who makes his livelihood from his catch isn’t going to have much to do with Odin unless he is called to fight. No, he would sacrifice to Njord mainly, and honour the other gods at events that called for the whole community’s participation. A farmer might look to Thor or Freyr (depending on their location) for help, warriors and skalds would be more interesting to Odin. It’s not that one god is superior, even Odin isn’t an all-purpose god, it’s just that some have more experience in certain areas than others, and of course, just because you primarily honour one god doesn’t mean you can’t honour the others.
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Captain_America
Guest
I think you misunderstand me. The whole matter is about ethics and human ethical action and choice, not about “gods” mechanics.
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vsedriver
Guest
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Lokabrenna
Guest
Hence why it’s considered an odd offering. I’m sure the giver in question was quite confused at first, but what can you do? Unfortunately, most of us don’t raise our own animals to give them something more like what they’re used to.
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Contarini
Guest
Sounds like something James Stephens should have written.
Edwin
Edwin
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Lokabrenna
Guest
For most, yes, a libation is poured outside the place where a ritual’s being conducted (because Odin said that every time he’s given a drink, Loki gets one too) as a way of saying: “Okay, you have your share, now leave us alone!” Some groups (particularly Theodish ones) won’t even say his name.
More recently, there are some people who do honour Loki, but they aren’t accepted by the majority of Heathens, most don’t even call themselves Heathen, anyways. They’re more likely to call themselves Norse Pagans (or just Lokean if they honour Loki, or Rokkatru if they honour Loki and his extended family). They’re an interesting bunch of people.
Also, I see you mentioned Pratchett and Gaiman, Good Omens is my favourite book! It made me a fan of both of them.
More recently, there are some people who do honour Loki, but they aren’t accepted by the majority of Heathens, most don’t even call themselves Heathen, anyways. They’re more likely to call themselves Norse Pagans (or just Lokean if they honour Loki, or Rokkatru if they honour Loki and his extended family). They’re an interesting bunch of people.
Also, I see you mentioned Pratchett and Gaiman, Good Omens is my favourite book! It made me a fan of both of them.
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PRmerger
Guest
Because that’s what the deity wants–manure.
I’m just wondering why these deities never want something that’s a burden (here, read repulsive) to their worshippers.
Just like those who believe they are reincarnated never believe they were a manure-shoveler, but a Celtic princess or a grand matriarch of a clan.
It just makes you go, “Hmmm…”
So how does one know what your deity wants?
Yes, this is very Christian of you to say!
Consensual between adults? Even if they’re married to other folks? Do pagans really believe that adultery is ok, as long as the 2 enjoying the liason are consenting?
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Lokabrenna
Guest
Well, then that’s not a problem, it’s just never been requested to my knowledge.
Author Amber K. once did a past life regression and witnessed a group of priestesses holding a ritual. She assumed that she must have been a priestess in a past life–it turns out she was actually a servant who had snuck upstairs to watch the ritual. I can’t remember where I read it, but one claimed to be a woman who…made a pot…Just like those who believe they are reincarnated never believe they were a manure-shoveler, but a Celtic princess or a grand matriarch of a clan.
The lore is always a good place to start, at least as far as traditional offerings are concerned, as for what they’d want someone to do, I’ve heard “Try asking them,” or “keep doing what you’re doing, if they want something more, they’ll let you know.” At least, that’s what I was told when I complained to my Vanatru friends about not having a deep relationship with the gods and goddesses like they had. You can also get an idea as to what that god/dess values by taking a look at how they act in their myths. Freya, for instance, tends to become VERY upset when the gods try and take away her ability to make her own decisions (like deciding to marry her off without asking her first), especially when they try to control her sexuality. Does that mean that I have to do as she does? No, because gods, being gods, can do things that we humans can’t do without seriously impacting our health. Gods are not to be imitated, in that way, but there are still lessons that they can teach us.
Generally not, cheating on someone tends to hurt everyone involved and make people less likely to date you in the future. Deceiving your partner like that is never okay.
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PRmerger
Guest
So your criterion for licit sex is NOT, then, “2 consenting adults”.
Just wanted to point that out whenever I hear that oft-repeated phrase. No one who’s apprehending to be moral actually believes that sex is ok between 2 consenting adults.
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PRmerger
Guest
Again, as the lore is, in your own words, mainly “meant to entertain”–it’s curious that you would use entertainment to discern what a deity desires/wants/believes.
It’s like my asking you what Cinderella would believe about immunizing children–is she for it or against it? What in the lore about Cinderella tells you this?
(Again, I am not saying Cinderella is a goddess. Only that all we know about her is from entertaining lore.)
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mwok
Guest
If “pro-lifers” wanted zero abortions no matter the excuse, how could you want fewer?
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mwok
Guest
Do Pagans in general think there is a such thing as mental illness or insanity?
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Lokabrenna
Guest
Yes, in fact there are Pagans who have to deal with mental illness. It’s not uncommon for a Pagan who first experiences contact with a god to question their own mental state. For all I know, since Pagans come from all walks of life, there are those who work to help people with mental health issues.
But I obviously can’t speak for everyone, and there are people out there who don’t believe in mental illness. Generally speaking, though, I would say that many would say there is such a thing, but leave the question of who is and is not mentally ill to the professionals.
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IanCorrigan
Guest
Sticking my schnoz back into this thread…
There are a bunch of assumptions about the nature of man, the divine and religion that would need addressing to get anywhere with this.
Let’s start with religion. Pagan religions aren’t ‘revealed’. The Gods or their heralds don’t generally descend and explain to mortals how to worship them, what offerings are proper, etc. Rather, Pagan religion is devised. Wise and inspired humans (called Rishis - Seers, in Hinduism, for example, and probably called ‘prophets’ in early biblical phases… i.e. “Saul is with the Prophets”…) discover the methods of communicating with the Gods, and aply them. Those that catch on with the people become tradition, and tradition defines the basics for future generations. At any time a new Seer or Wise One might appear, to offer new approaches, which may or may not become part of tradition. Each or any of these may produce ‘scripture’, or poetry or ritual text, and some of those writings may become hallowed by tradition.
This is possible because humans are understood to posses an indwelling spark of the divine. We are not different in kind from the Gods and Spirits, only in degree. Someone asked whether a human spirit could be greater than some gods. I’d say yes. There are some very small gods, and some very large heroes. In any case, our very human minds are reflections of the divine mind, and when we focus and clarify ourselves we can be inspired in many ways. Pagans don’t see this so much as hearing the voice of a god, as realizing truth by our own divine discernment.
Of course it can happen in the more common way, in which a god or spirit sends a dream or vision. That’s how a lot of temples and Shrines get built.
In Neopaganism, this process is just being restored. Our 50 or 60 years of invocation and seeking of the Gods is beginning to be answered in dreams, visions and inspirations. Very few of these have reached the level of tradition yet. When we get a few generations under us we’ll see more of that.
In any case, this is not self-worship. Rather it is an active reaching out to the divine other. In an animistic polytheism, the divine is never restricted to one place, person, condition or name. The divine inheres in me, and in you; in trees and stones and art and music and turds and the flow of stars across the sky. To know the divine in fullness we must be open to the divine wherever it presents itself, and seek it where we might not otherwise seek. That’s the mystic’s work, but many people just want enough religion to get by. We see no problem in that, and the simple business of making an offering to a god and getting a blessing in return is enough for a lot of Pagans. No one is required to seek mystical understanding in order to get some good of religion.
Now as to why the gods don’t ask for nasty stuff…
First, understand that the practice of making offerings is based on the setting of a feast for a noble guest. A ‘Sacrifice’ (latin for sacred work, but RCs should know that…) is a banquet arranged for a god - incense to sweeten the air, wine poured in libation, cakes burned or buried, and a nice lamb or goat roasted, butchered and either shared between the god and the folk or given whole to the god.
Smaller offerings are essentially a scale-down of that approach. You give what you would give a friend. The gods don’t so much demand or prescribe what’s given, rather they graciously appreciate the small welcome most folks can give, and respond with noble gifts in turn. Of course different friends like different things, and you don’t lay in reisling for your stout-drinking friend. That brings us back to inspiration, experiment and tradition, by which these customs arise.
For a spirit to ask a repugnant thing would be a strange deal. It isn’t their custom to ask us to ‘prove ourselves’ to them (except a few folks who may have some sort of ‘destiny’ or something), or to require us to jump through hoops for them. Especially in these early stages of our revival, the gods are pleased to be receiving offerings again.
On yet another level, remember that the divine is infinitely multiple in form, and no one person can be in religious relationship with all of those forms. The beings that come to be part of human religion are beings that like humans, and may even be like humans, including our ancestors, and spirits of the lands we live in). They are beings that respond when we make offerings of wine and bread. Beings who want offerings of turds (divine as they may be) can mostly look somewhere besides my house for worshippers.
Can I sum up…? It’s unusual to have a god ask for anything in particular. Rather, offerings are devised through inspiration, experiment and tradition. The goal is to please the deity with our gifts. Therefore, no turds.
Incidentally, that would be entirely different from asking a god or spirit to bless a turd for, say garden fertility…
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