Ask a Pagan, Part 2

[Lokabrenna]

He asked for some assistence in compiling information on the subject. From the reading and discussions I’ve had with my Neo-pagan friends, Asatru isn’t “racist” as much as it is very “clan” oriented. One’s loyalties is within the Clan AND one’s racial ancestory…they are not against other races or ethnicities…if a person of African ancestory wish to practice his pagan religion and ancestors the Asatru are all for it…but the Gods and Goddesses of Asatru are not of African descent…and since ancestor identification is very strong among Asatru…so is their “racism”…not in the same sense “White Supremacists” embrace racism/hate mongering…but the Asatru are very race conscious as their Gods are in a way…“Ancestors”.

In all honesty, it depends on what sort of Heathen you encounter. I’ve already talked about folkish types, but there are also “tribalist” Heathens who believe that reconstructing the culture and worldview of the ancients is just as important as reconstructing the religion, and at the other end of the spectrum are the “universalists” who believe that anyone who feels a connection to these deities can worship them.

This article does a good job explaining the tensions between these three groups: uppsalaonline.com/uppsala/racism.htm Although I would actually disagree with how he characterizes universalists. To me “universalism” means that the gods just don’t care about genetics, not that “anyone who says they are practicing Asatru is practicing Asatru”. I certainly don’t practice Asatru, nor do I claim to. I know someone who practices Norse Wicca, same pantheon, different approaches.

I would agree with you that Heathenry (and not just Asatru, which is particularly Icelandic Heathenry) is very clan and family oriented. However, I will say that the notion of “ancestry” is something that is definitely up for debate. I think some people tend to forget that the tribes traveled widely, so it’s entirely possible that anyone could have the “Germanic gene” that you need to worship the gods, but my opinion is that the gods don’t run around obsessing over whether a particular human is 49.9% German/Icelandic/Swedish, etc.

As for the gods being ancestors, it is true that some kings claimed divine ancestry (lots of kings did that sort of thing) but in my experience, it’s less that the deities are literal ancestors and more that they are treated “like family”.

 

[Publisher]

Since Neo-paganism has no “Vatican”, sometimes pinning down exact representations and statements concerning some of these faith traditions is very difficult…and that difficulty is part of the problem many Neo-pagan chaplins face in ministering to incarcerated Neo-pagans…the prison system has a very “Christian” mindset.

 

[Lokabrenna]

Could an African be accepted into an Asatru group?

I know in Santeria, which venerates African ancestor/deities, there is no requirement that one have recent African ancestry in order to be initiated. The ancestors, though African, seem to be welcoming to anyone who is willing to undergo the sacrifices necessary.

Again, this depends on the group, “folkish” Asatruar will most likely say “No, this person should honour African deities (which deities would depend on where he’s from, which might be difficult to determine).”

However, I’ve also seen “He can, but he has to be adopted into the group first.” Some groups believe that if you haven’t “professed” a belief in Asatru, you shouldn’t call yourself an Asatruar. You can, however, call yourself a “Heathen” (which is a more generalized term).

A universalist, on the other hand, generally wouldn’t have a problem with an African-American joining their group, ancestry isn’t so much of an issue, it’s whether the gods have called to you or not.

 

[Lokabrenna]

Since Neo-paganism has no “Vatican”, sometimes pinning down exact representations and statements concerning some of these faith traditions is very difficult…and that difficulty is part of the problem many Neo-pagan chaplins face in ministering to incarcerated Neo-pagans…the prison system has a very “Christian” mindset.

Well, Neopaganism isn’t even a single religion, so you would probably need hundreds of chaplains to minister to every Pagan prisoner, most decide to go with Wiccan or Asatruar simply because they make up the majority of Pagan inmates.

Erm, not that those groups are more likely to commit crimes, just that there are more of them population-wise.

 

[ringil]

While I am no authority on the subject…I don’t believe he/she would feel…“comfortable” among an Asatru worship group…not because they are of African descent…but becasue they do not share the same ancestors and clans…since they would not share the same Gods and ancestors as the Clan…how would they participate in the life of the People…in many ways how could someone not linked by blood hear the “call of the Gods”?

Those of African descent would hear the “call of the Gods” from their own bloodlines…the “call” is not “racist”…it’s just that the Gods whom the Asatru would worship…the Aeisir and Vanir calls to those who share their blood…

NOW all that being said…there are Asatru that are “universalist” in belief and do believe that anyone can hear the “call”…but how can one hear the call of the Ancestors if they don’t share the Ancestors doing the calling?

There are some who are quite racist and actually believe that those of other races are inferior…but that’s not an Asatru belief necessarily…it’s the belief of racists…I’ve know “Christians” who believe those of African descent are somehow “inferior” to them as “white people”.

As I understand Asatru…each of us must listen to the “Call of the Gods” from our own bloodlines…stated in those terms as the Gods are “Clannish”…“Folkish”, Asatru who adhere to the “Call” would not “hear” the “Call” of African Gods…only those of African descent would…

Yoruba/Santeria/Vodoon “Gods” operate on a more universal mythology…that “mythology” is not shared between the Asatru and the Yoruba/Santeria/Vodoon.

It’s very difficult to get Asatru “chaplins” in to minister to Asatru inmates because of the “Christian” influence in our prison systems…“It’s satanic”…“It’s racist” is usually the answer provided to those who seek to minister to the Asatru/Neo-pagans in many prison systems…only “Christian/Jewish/Muslim” “monotheists” usually are allowed to “minister.”

But all humans have the same bloodline, and what is “bloodline” anyway?

And it seems to me that a far and significant majority of the norse religion stuff would be racist in a prison.

The prison adherants involved with what they present to be a religion is really as much a simple gang as anything else. A veneer over violence and ignorance.

I don’t think these dirtbags are the same folks we are taking about here, and who are participating in this thread who are involved in the norse traditional magic practice.

I’m probably totally using the wrong terms in describing the religion here so offense intended except to racists- then offense is intended.

 

[Publisher]

Well, Neopaganism isn’t even a single religion, so you would probably need hundreds of chaplains to minister to every Pagan prisoner, most decide to go with Wiccan or Asatruar simply because they make up the majority of Pagan inmates.

Erm, not that those groups are more likely to commit crimes, just that there are more of them population-wise.

Most definitely…some prisons do have “Pagan chaplins” and are able to accomodate many of the various traditions within Neo-paganism…working with the prison system is the main difficulty as there is a decidedly “Christian” bias against any form of Neo-paganism.

 

[Publisher]

But all humans have the same bloodline, and what is “bloodline” anyway?

And it seems to me that a far and significant majority of the norse religion stuff would be racist in a prison.

The prison adherants involved with what they present to be a religion is really as much a simple gang as anything else. A veneer over violence and ignorance.

I don’t think these dirtbags are the same folks we are taking about here, and who are participating in this thread who are involved in the norse traditional magic practice.

I’m probably totally using the wrong terms in describing the religion here so offense intended except to racists- then offense is intended.

According to your belief system…but Asatru doesn’t share your belief system…you would have to ask or research Asatru to answer your question about “what” is “bloodline”…it may mean nothing to you…but we aren’t discussing your faith tradition.

While I would agree on the surface with the rest of your statement…not the name calling but the general udnerstanding that the pagan faith traditions are used as a screen to promote hatred and racial tensions, that too is one of the issues facing prison chaplins…“facts” concerning Neo-paganism and it’s various traditions usually mean little to prison officials who share a “Christian” worldview of things.

 

[ringil]

Most definitely…some prisons do have “Pagan chaplins” and are able to accomodate many of the various traditions within Neo-paganism…working with the prison system is the main difficulty as there is a decidedly “Christian” bias against any form of Neo-paganism.

Well if the racists didn’t claim to be pagan they probably wouldn’t have a problem.

There is a culture linking a false paganism and racislly based gangs in prison. It’s pretty ubiquitous.

 

[ringil]

I certainly agree that every prisoner does have a right to a chaplain of their choice. Even the. . . . uh. . . . Satanists.

I feel what you are saying about the discrimination factor. Catholic prisoners in the deep South often don’t have nearly the access to faith based support as protestants. Same in the millitary, there is a culture favoring evangelical christianity as the expense of the Catholics and/or Orthodox.

 

[Publisher]

Well if the racists didn’t claim to be pagan they probably wouldn’t have a problem.

There is a culture linking a false paganism and racislly based gangs in prison. It’s pretty ubiquitous.

Many white supremecist groups claim on being “Christian” as well…“there is a culture linking flase Chrisina and racially based gangs in prison”…it works both ways…racism and igonorance know no religious boundries.

 

[amber_lux]

so you would probably need hundreds of chaplains to minister to every Pagan prisoner, most decide to go with Wiccan or Asatruar simply because they make up the majority of Pagan inmates

CF McCollum v. CDCR, 2011 U.S. App. LEXIS 10971, (9th Cir., June 1, 2011), or for those less inclined towards esoteric legal jargon, courthousenews.com/2011/06/01/37004.htm.

Amber

 

[samiam1611]

Sadly, I’m probably not going to dress up this year since I’m too old to go trick-or-treating, I never get invited to Hallowe’en parties and when I stay home to hand out candy, we get like, two kids. I am planning on putting my dog in a costume, though. I think a princess costume will do. She can be a bratty princess sometimes!

Oh you should dress up though! You could dress up like a queen and your dog could be the princess. Just buy a cheap crown from one of those Halloween stores, and maybe you have some sort of dress or cape you could wear. Maybe they have dog costume contests in your area?

The dog in my signature is wearing a fairy costume which I bought her for Halloween last year. I bought it in September and she was trying it on. However, she died before Halloween came and it doesn’t fit my new dog. So my new dog just has fairy wings but no dress. And of course I am a fairy too every year. I usually dress up like an evil fairy bc it fits in with the spirit of Halloween, but at other times of the year, I prefer nature fairies (depending on what season it is.)

As for dressing up as one of the gods. I’ve seen some phenomenal costumes of deities, but I’m not sure if I’d dress up as a deity myself, I think that perhaps a historically accurate viking costume would be more appropriate, but that would take time to make and would probably exceed my costume budget. I don’t mind if people want to dress as deities, though. I think the gods are more amused than offended by costumes, perhaps a bit of both depending on the deity. I also dare anyone to go as Aphrodite (protip: Almost every depiction of Aphrodite is nude), enjoy the freezing weather!

I’ve seen some Eve costumes that were pretty skimpy…some well-placed fig leaves and vines. Although the apple shaped purse and serpent boa were a nice touch.

 

[Lokabrenna]

But all humans have the same bloodline, and what is “bloodline” anyway?

That’s exactly why I’m not one of those folkish types I talked about earlier. I think notions of “blood” have no basis in current scientific understanding of genetics. (The notion of “genetic memory” was popular in the Romantic period, and from there it’s crept into certain belief systems).

And it seems to me that a far and significant majority of the norse religion stuff would be racist in a prison.

The prison adherants involved with what they present to be a religion is really as much a simple gang as anything else. A veneer over violence and ignorance.

Personally, I think dirtbags will find an excuse to be dirtbags no matter what ideology they profess. A white supremacist actually lived next door to me (I had no idea until recently when an article on him appeared in the paper) and as far as I knew, he was an atheist. On a forum I used to post on, there was a woman on there who claimed to be a Catholic…while being a racist anti-Semite (she claimed that Jesus wasn’t a Jew, for starters, he was white with strawberry blond hair).

 

[Andromedus]

I don’t know if you would count this group as the other folkish groups or even if you would count them as ‘‘folkish’’, but still I would like to know your opinion. Of course, they don’t give much information in english so that might be hard, but what would you say about ther view on neo-pagans?
nordisksed.se/utrikiska/english

By the way, I’m not sure that I believe their claim about being an old, living tradition, but it would still be interesting to hear what you think of them. And sorry, I know that their english, like my own, isn’t perfect.

 

[Lokabrenna]

I don’t know if you would count this group as the other folkish groups or even if you would count them as ‘‘folkish’’, but still I would like to know your opinion. Of course, they don’t give much information in english so that might be hard, but what would you say about ther view on neo-pagans?
nordisksed.se/utrikiska/english

By the way, I’m not sure that I believe their claim about being an old, living tradition, but it would still be interesting to hear what you think of them.

I definitely see some “folkishness” in that page, but without more information, it’s hard to tell. Basically, what separates the different groups is the question: “Could someone who is not of Northern European descent practice your religion?” They do say that only Swedish citizens and people who live in Sweden can become members, so I think that would at least imply a certain level of folkishness or tribalist thinking.

I think the label “traditionalist” might also apply to this group, traditionalists are those Heathens who actually grew up being exposed to elements of the religion in their culture, that’s why they don’t claim to be reconstructing anything. They don’t need to, they have all the information they need from their own culture.

I do think that they’re right in trying to separate themselves from Asatru, but they’ve oversimplified things. Asatru is specifically Icelandic-based Heathenry. It seems in this case that “New Age” and “neopagan” are synonyms for “movements I don’t like”.

I should also note (while I’m on the subject) that reconstructionists generally don’t refer to themselves as “Neopagans” because (in their eyes) they aren’t “new” at all, or they feel that “Neopaganism” refers to a specific set of beliefs that don’t describe them at all (labels like “earth-based” may not describe these religions). When I say “Pagan”, I also include the reconstructionist traditions in that definition, even though they may not self-identify as such.

 

[cheese_sdc]

I was going to say “You haven’t been hanging out with any hardcore Germanic reconstructionists, then, have you?” Some of them can get REALLY grumpy!

But that’s a whole other topic entirely, and not all hardcore recons are grumpy, of course. We come from all walks of life, but I think having the “no trying to convert people” rule (which is true for most modern Pagan religions, if not all) helps a lot.

Haha. No. Mainly wiccans.

 

[Lokabrenna]

Haha. No. Mainly wiccans.

I’ve always found the outright hatred directed at Wiccans on the part of some Asatruar/Germanic recons/Heathens to be…odd. I know, they resent that the public tends to assume that Pagan = Wiccan, but sometimes I wish they would just grow up and stop hating on people for being different! It’s disgraceful!

Sorry, it’s just…annoying!

 

[Ahimsa]

Again, this depends on the group, “folkish” Asatruar will most likely say “No, this person should honour African deities (which deities would depend on where he’s from, which might be difficult to determine).”

I wonder how the folkish Asatruar deal with people of recent mixed-race background. Most/many African-Americans have European (especially Celtic) ancestry.

Do the folkish accept reincarnation?

 

[Andromedus]

I definitely see some “folkishness” in that page, but without more information, it’s hard to tell. Basically, what separates the different groups is the question: “Could someone who is not of Northern European descent practice your religion?” They do say that only Swedish citizens and people who live in Sweden can become members, so I think that would at least imply a certain level of folkishness or tribalist thinking.

Now when I have looked into it a bit more (not very much though) its seems like the reason for why you can’t be a member if your not living in Sweden is because they only exist in Sweden and therefore they can not give any sort of service to the person in question. I think you don’t have to be of Northern European descent, at least they don’t explicitly say that you have to, but since their faith and tradition doesn’t exist outside of Scandinavian countries you can’t possible have been born into it. Therefore you have to convert and since they only have an organisation in Sweden you have to move there (or here, from my point of view ) to be a part of the organisation. However, they have sister-organisations in other Scandinavian countries.

 

[Lokabrenna]

I wonder how the folkish Asatruar deal with people of recent mixed-race background. Most/many African-Americans have European (especially Celtic) ancestry.

Well, in the case of someone who is, say, 1/2 Irish, 1/4 German, and a 1/4 Kenyan (let’s assume genetics is this cut and dry), they would say this person should look into Irish deities, but then you run into a problem: What if you’re 50% German/Icelandic/Swedish/English and 50% something else? These days, most (if not all) people are genetic “mutts”, and what if you can only trace your ancestry back to the late 1800s or something?

Do the folkish accept reincarnation?

Some do, but stress that reincarnation ONLY happens through family lines, not across species, which begs the question as to what you do when your line dies out. Do you go to the closest available bloodline and wait around until they have kids?