Ask a Pagan, Part 2

  • Thread starter Thread starter Lokabrenna
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
In several of your prevoius posts, you cite lack of funds as something preventing you from worshipping as you might like. My question is: why does it have to be so expensive to be a pagan? Is it because you have to do it all yourself, lacking co-religionists to pool your resources with?
 
In several of your prevoius posts, you cite lack of funds as something preventing you from worshipping as you might like. My question is: why does it have to be so expensive to be a pagan? Is it because you have to do it all yourself, lacking co-religionists to pool your resources with?
Good question! Actually, the best answer is that it costs as much as you want it to cost. The ancestors had the advantage of entire communities who would pool their resources to build temples and such, but individuals and families would pay for offerings and sacrifices out of their own pockets.

In all honesty, it costs nothing to pray, and many Pagans make do with pictures that they’ve printed off their computer. However, I like statues, I find them aesthetically appealing. There’s something tangible about a statue that you can’t get with a picture. I suppose you might call it vanity, but I’d personally rather wait until I could buy one.

I should also mention that in traditions like Wicca, there are tools that have specific purposes within ritual, and these tools can be expensive (but they don’t have to be). However, several people have pointed out to me that, while tools are nice, your finger can substitute for a wand or an athame in a pinch.

In terms of Catholicism, is it absolutely necessary to have statues of saints around or spend lots of money on pilgrimages? I wouldn’t say so, yet lots of people do it. My mom has a small statue of Mary in my parents’ room, but she’s never felt the need to go to, say, Lourdes on pilgrimage.
 
Good question! Actually, the best answer is that it costs as much as you want it to cost. The ancestors had the advantage of entire communities who would pool their resources to build temples and such, but individuals and families would pay for offerings and sacrifices out of their own pockets.

In all honesty, it costs nothing to pray, and many Pagans make do with pictures that they’ve printed off their computer. However, I like statues, I find them aesthetically appealing. There’s something tangible about a statue that you can’t get with a picture. I suppose you might call it vanity, but I’d personally rather wait until I could buy one.

I should also mention that in traditions like Wicca, there are tools that have specific purposes within ritual, and these tools can be expensive (but they don’t have to be). However, several people have pointed out to me that, while tools are nice, your finger can substitute for a wand or an athame in a pinch.

In terms of Catholicism, is it absolutely necessary to have statues of saints around or spend lots of money on pilgrimages? I wouldn’t say so, yet lots of people do it. My mom has a small statue of Mary in my parents’ room, but she’s never felt the need to go to, say, Lourdes on pilgrimage.
The Pagans/Wiccans I am acquainted with have made their own tools…they are gifted artists…the athame and boline I have seen are beautifuly crafted. The pentacle and wand were made from items from their yard…the cup an, antique pottery item they found at the Goodwill…they are taking pottery classes and plan on throwing a hand made cup eventually…the incense from herbs and resins gathered from forests…the salt from the ocean they gathered off the rocks at the beach…the only expense they seem to incur is for candles and wine…they have made homemade beer to use in ritual to substitute for store bought wine.

When I have visited their home…their alter is clean and usually simple…a couple candles…a dish of salt…a bowl of water…an incense burner and some stones and crystals…I do enjoy their Samhain alter…quite interesting…usually “decked out” with all their tools…

Any time I have gone to their home for dinner…there has been lit candles and incense burning on the alter.
 
Number 2 is the question I’d like most to hear the answer to. Also, I wanted to know if you believe that following paganism has some advantage over following another religion, i.e. Christianity. Do any pagans believe that their religion is objectively true, and other religions are not? Note: If you believe objectively in the existence of pagan gods, then you have to believe objectively that Judaism, Christianity, Islam are all false because these three religions all declare that there is only one true God. To say that all religions are true is a logical contradiction.
No problem!

I actually participated in a discussion on this very topic on The Cauldron. Here’s a link to it: ecauldron.com/forum/showthread.php?582-Do-you-accept-other-religions

In case you don’t want to wade through four pages of dialogue. I’ll summarize based on what I’ve seen in the community. Please remember that there are always exceptions to the rule:

Pagans generally accept that other traditions are true for their adherents. Some Pagans see YHVH as a local god of the Hebrew people who became VERY popular, but not that he’s the only god (small ‘g’ god) out there or that he’s THE god for everyone. Polytheism by it’s very nature is quite accepting (by varying degrees). I have encountered those who think that monotheistic traditions are ‘teh ebils’ and responsible for all the world’s ills, but I think some of them just replace one form of dogmatism with another.
I have never heard of Pagan apologetics, Pagan theological discussions, etc. The vast majority of pagans I’ve met don’t seem interested in absolute truth but rather in what they feel suits them. I cannot fathom why anyone would follow a religion unless they had good reason to believe that its teachings were true. To me a god whose nature is decided by me is no god at all but is rather a sort of “pet” god made in my own likeness, rather than vice versa.
Would it surprise you to learn that Pagan apologetics exist? Here’s one website I’ve seen: paganapologetics.faithweb.com/

Pagan theo(a)logies also exist. Here’s one link to such musings: pagantheology.com/

I think what you’re seeing is the difference between orthodoxy and orthopraxy. As a Pagan, I really don’t care if you believe that the moon is made of green cheese (even though, from a scientific standpoint, you’d be wrong). What do your actions say about you? How do you behave towards those around you? Do you work to make the world a better place or do you cause suffering?
I do not mean this post in a derogatory way, I just want to know what your thought processes are.
It’s complicated. Really, it is. 🙂
 
In terms of Catholicism, is it absolutely necessary to have statues of saints around or spend lots of money on pilgrimages? I wouldn’t say so, yet lots of people do it. My mom has a small statue of Mary in my parents’ room, but she’s never felt the need to go to, say, Lourdes on pilgrimage.
Catholics are fortunate in that, over time, the Church has acquired properties, art, and places of worship and much of these are open to the public.

In my own life, I am kind of minimalist in terms of religious artifacts (probably because I grew up Protestant). The crucifix that we have over our bed, for example, was hand-carved by my wife’s grandfather. It has rustic charm, and its significance to us is also that it was made by him during the war, when they really didn’t have much. We have a cross that hangs in the hallway that I carved. We have other items that we bought (but no statuary). I don’t know how your wood-carving skills are, but perhaps you could start with Freya in bas-relief on a wood panel.

At any rate, I tend to agree, religious art is an “extra”, more than a “must-have”. Actually, in Warsaw, I know a church that was bombed during the war and the interior intentionally never renovated. They put the roof back on and re-built the floor out of timbers, and rewired the lights, put in pews, etc., but they left the interior in its war-damaged state. everything is rough, exposed bricks, missing plaster, exposed beams, some new items. It is a striking place to worship. My wife’s cousin was married there, which is how I know about it. My point (I do have one, somewhere in here) is that simple artwork can also provide a moving worship experience.
 
Do you believe the gods of old are real, tangible beings, or are they just old stories that explained concepts of nature?
I see it as a bit of both. Obviously, the Pagans of old didn’t have the scientific knowledge that we have, so they imagined that the universe was created when a sky cow licked a frost giant free, then the gods killed him and made our world out of his brains. 🙂

The stories, first and foremost, were meant to entertain. The people had to do something to pass the time during the long winter months.

I think the gods are real beings, but I also think that the stories we have only give us a taste of who they are. What draws many people to Paganism is that they experience direct communication with a god or goddess in some way. Yasmine Galenorn, for instance, says that her journey to Paganism began when she saw a unicorn. She doesn’t expect that everyone will believe that she saw a unicorn, but I think that’s the nature of religious experiences–they’re only true for the person who had them.

As I’ve said elsewhere, the real debate among Pagans is not: “Do gods exist?” but “Are gods individuals, or are they aspects of a Single Divine Power?”
 
Do you talk with the deities on a daily basis?
If you mean “Do I hold conversations where everyone else can see me talking to thin air?” Then no, nor do I hear voices in my head that tell me to burn things. Talking to the deities might be as simple as saying: “Hail Sunna!” when one wakes up in the morning or “Hail Mani!” when one catches a glimpse of the full moon.

Now, I can’t say how this works, exactly, but others do seem to carry on conversations with the gods, either in a trance state, through dreams, even through full-on possession. Deity/spirit possession is particularly important in some African diasporic traditions, particularly Vodou, although Vodouissants usually don’t identify as “Pagan”.

Myself, I would like to try (safely) experimenting (ie. without resorting to illegal drug use) with ASCs (Altered States of Consciousness) but such work is best done with a group, and before someone chimes in with a “that’s evil!!” comment, we naturally slide into light ASCs by doing ordinary activities, like reading.
 
Do you talk with the deities on a daily basis?
It depends 😃 I pray alot and my prayers are answered in many different “voices”. These voices have shown up as a breeze, a sudden ah-ha moment, an animal that crosses my path, etc. I do know that the deities come to me in my dreams and speak that way too. Because I practice a very Afro-Caribbean path, I believe in possessions by the Orisha/Lwa. Has it happened to me personally? No not yet, but I know others who have had their Orisha/Lwa come down. I also believe through divinatory means such as the Diloggun (cowrie shell oracle) the deities can speak as well. I have also felt physical pressences next to me or holding me when I am worshiping.
 
I don’t believe religious texts were divinely inspired. I believe they were written by people about figures who may or may not have existed, with a certain agenda in mind. (I actually have more in common with atheists when it comes to hermeneutics). I don’t believe that there is a Universal Truth that applies to everyone, but I think all religions have an element of truth (or, at least, are true to their followers).
I think that answers a lot of questions and sort of confirms what I’ve always suspected, which is the underlying root of relativism, that “probably none of it is true anyways so we might as well believe whatever we want.” Paganism is more understandable if you come at it from this relativistic “nobody knows” approach; Catholicism is inherently anti-relativist.
 
I think that answers a lot of questions and sort of confirms what I’ve always suspected, which is the underlying root of relativism, that “probably none of it is true anyways so we might as well believe whatever we want.” Paganism is more understandable if you come at it from this relativistic “nobody knows” approach; Catholicism is inherently anti-relativist.
I didn’t get that from Paganism, actually. I picked that up as part of my four year BA in religious studies (which is distinct from theology). Religious studies as a discipline doesn’t assume that everyone has the same religious framework (or any religion at all, actually). My classmates were Pagan, Buddhist, various Christian denominations, Muslim, Jewish, agnostic, atheist, and everything in between. What I really liked about it was that no one perspective was privileged over another. Some Christians were offended by the term “Christian mythology” but I think that just shows how privileged Christians are compared to other religions, and, as my profs. pointed out, the term “myth” originally just meant a story, and only later came to be seen as a “thing that isn’t true”, same with the term “cult”.
 
All things being equal, would a pagan prefer to marry another pagan, or a non-pagan (say, an open-minded Southern Baptist)?
 
All things being equal, would a pagan prefer to marry another pagan, or a non-pagan (say, an open-minded Southern Baptist)?
I’d personally prefer another Pagan, but as long as they’re open-minded/willing to tolerate my quirks, I think we’d get along. I’d be more concerned with their views on being childfree. (I have absolutely no desire to have children, either my own or by adoption.)
 
Since no one seems to be asking questions, I thought I’d give this thread a bit of a bump and address some misconceptions regarding Paganism that have been coming up in this thread and others:

“Pagans can believe whatever they want to believe.”

This is actually true, in a sense. Paganism is not a single religion, but an umbrella term that encompasses many different traditions. Many Pagans are drawn to Paganism because of this spiritual openness. Some join established traditions, others (commonly referred to as ‘eclectics’) mix and match elements of different traditions that appeal to them. Often, you will hear Pagans say that a particular pantheon/deity “called to them”, that they felt drawn to look into a specific pantheon or a particular Pagan tradition.

However, while it could be said that the misconception is often (but not always) true for eclectics, established traditions (particularly reconstructionist traditions, like Asatru or Hellenismos) have standard rituals and ethical codes. It’s important to understand, however, that Pagan religions are very de-centralized. Despite what you may have heard, there is no “Witch Queen” or “Asapope” that dictates how all members of X tradition should practice it. You might wonder who does have authority, then, and the answer really depends.Some traditions (particularly reconstructionist traditions) possess a body of written lore which is given a measure of authority, but these texts aren’t seen as infallible the way that some Christians might view the Bible. The works of respected scholars and elders in the tradition might also carry weight with practitioners, but they are also subject to critique. For others, absolute authority lies with the individual. I would say that most consider several of these things to be “authoritative” to some degree, but not infallible.

“Why would you worship gods who are, essentially, humans with supernatural powers?”

I think for some, Paganism (and, I would argue, polytheism in general) is appealing for just that reason–the gods are very human-like. Different Pagans will give you different answers, but for me, the Christian understanding of God always seemed very distant, despite hearing things such as “God is everywhere” He never struck me as being as…immediate…in my life. In contrast, many Pagans directly experience their gods in their lives (without the need for intermediaries); the deities are very “active” in their followers lives. In fact, upon first making contact with a deity, the first thing many Pagans ask themselves is: “Am I hearing things? Am I going crazy? What’s going on?”

Another thing to consider is that Pagan gods aren’t seen as “role models” for human behaviour. There’s no “living one’s life in imitation of Freyr”. I have not met any Pagan who expects that their gods will be paragons of virtue all the time. Freyja does not expect that I will go out and sleep with a bunch of men, as she does in one of her myths, for instance. The notion that deities should be all-good is a dualistic concept that doesn’t have a place in polytheistic systems. In my own tradition, the line isn’t drawn between good and evil, but is closer to order and chaos.

Some other stuff to keep in mind:

Pagans generally don’t proselytize. You won’t find Pagan missionaries looking for converts (although many Pagans are “converts” themselves). Historically, polytheistic traditions tend to adopt foreign deities rather than demonize them. This does not mean, however; that Pagans were always accepting and tolerant (far from it) nor were they above making war with their neighbours.

Many Pagans have read the Bible. This is particularly a problem with certain conservative Evangelical Christians, but many Pagans, having been Christian at one point in their lives, are very much aware that “the Bible says X” about divination, witchcraft, and many other topics. The assumption that many make, I find, is that Pagans either haven’t read the Bible, or they haven’t read it “properly” (because obviously, if they had, they would be good Christians).
 
So I was just wondering how did you find this website and why did you join it if the website is called catholic.com?
I actually can’t remember how I found this website. I think it was probably due to a quote I saw on “Fundies Say the Darndest Things” (I would post a think but I don’t think it’s allowed) because I wanted to see the quote in context.

As for why I joined, I’m interested in dialogue and discussion with others, and I’m already on a few Pagan forums. The rules do state:
“Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board.”
If I want to hang around with other Pagans, I can always go to one of the Pagan forums I’m already on. I like that this place welcomes different perspectives, not like, say, “Rapture Ready”.
 
I actually can’t remember how I found this website. I think it was probably due to a quote I saw on “Fundies Say the Darndest Things” (I would post a think but I don’t think it’s allowed) because I wanted to see the quote in context.

As for why I joined, I’m interested in dialogue and discussion with others, and I’m already on a few Pagan forums. The rules do state:

If I want to hang around with other Pagans, I can always go to one of the Pagan forums I’m already on. I like that this place welcomes different perspectives, not like, say, “Rapture Ready”.
No, I know. I was just curious. Sorry, if it came off accusatory or anything. I was just always curious as to why non-catholics join this website
 
No, I know. I was just curious. Sorry, if it came off accusatory or anything. I was just always curious as to why non-catholics join this website
Makes perfect sense to me. There aren’t many Christians on the Pagan forums I’m on, although I have seen Jewish and Buddhist members post occasionally.

Anyways, if you have any questions, just ask! There are no stupid questions, and before you ask, you aren’t going to offend me or appear ignorant. I seem to get a lot of “I don’t want to offend you, but…” I don’t get why everyone thinks I’m so sensitive. 😃
 
How do you know that your gods exist? Is there any evidence for their existence?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top