Ask a Pagan, Part 2

[Tyuiop411]

Actually, I think it would be quite hypocritical of me if I did believe in the gods of the North and turned around and said: “But YOUR GOD doesn’t exist! Muahahahaha!”

So, I will sum up my views again:

-I do think that YHVH exists, but I see him as one god (small ‘g’ god) among many, certainly not the ONLY god, and certainly not the only one worthy of worship

-I think it is quite possible that a historical Jesus existed (it was a pretty common name back then). However…

Sorry about editing this down but these are the points I wanted to comment on.

First off I find your first statement much more intellectually honest than what a Wiccan friend of mine would always assert (Basically every god exists except the Judeo-Christian God).

Second is there some kind of consensus as to what makes a god have power? Is it the number of worshipers the respective god has or is the power simply an innate part of the god’s being. In my time as a pagan I ran into both views.

Finally my actual question, and forgive me for my ignorance. What differentiates Vanic Paganism from say Asatru?

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

The concept that deity is “perfect” is something that is foreign to Pagan gods. If God is all good, it follows that Satan is pure evil, but the gods that Pagans worship are neither good nor evil, as in this chart from the (late) Isaac Bonewits:

neopagan.net/graphics/Theology_Sm.jpg

However, I think there is an element of “perfection” particularly when discussing images of deities. Many cultures (the Greeks, for instance) saw their gods as physically ideal, but as far as perfection is concerned, the gods are not perfect, nor do they expect their followers to be perfect.

Thanks for the response.

This is the reason why I never really pursued paganism further because I never could rationalize how a Being which was imperfect could be called a god since I myself am an imperfect Being and could never claim to be a god. If I’m imperfect and the “gods” are imperfect then we are equals. Why would I worship something that is equal to me? Then I thought well what if there are multiple gods and all of them possess all perfection? This soon brought me to another problem since if all the gods possessed all perfection and neither one lacked a perfection that the other one had, then they were really by reason the same god and not two different gods. The conclusion I was left with was that polytheism (for me anyway) didn’t make much sense at all.

 

[Lokabrenna]

First off I find your first statement much more intellectually honest than what a Wiccan friend of mine would always assert (Basically every god exists except the Judeo-Christian God).

This was a common view I ran across as well. I think because many Pagans come from Jewish or Christian (mostly Christian), it’s a reactionary thing. They think that “because I reject monotheism I must then therefore completely reject YHVH (or Jesus, or both)” when really what they’re rejecting is how monotheists perceive YHVH and Jesus.

Second is there some kind of consensus as to what makes a god have power? Is it the number of worshipers the respective god has or is the power simply an innate part of the god’s being. In my time as a pagan I ran into both views.

It depends on who you ask. Some believe that belief is what keeps a deity going, so if everyone stopped believing in a certain deity, that deity would cease to exist (although, we still name companies after gods, and we tell their stories, so I wonder if that is not a “belief” of some sort). Others (particularly “hard polytheists”) will say that gods don’t depend on human belief to sustain them. It’s not uncommon to find Pagans (even in the same group) who have radically different views of deity and yet still manage to come together for rituals. Myself, I used to subscribe to the “gods have power through human belief” but now I’m more “gods don’t depend on humans for things” (although mythologically, the Sumerian pantheon depended on sacrifices for sustenance), but I think both positions have their benefits and drawbacks.

Finally my actual question, and forgive me for my ignorance. What differentiates Vanic Paganism from say Asatru?

Asatru is specifically Icelandic reconstructionist Heathenry. There are other types of Heathenry (Heathenry, btw, is basically a catch-all term for reconstructionist Germanic Paganism) such as Anglo-Saxon Heathenry, Frankish Heathenry, Forn Siðr (Scandinavian Heathenry) and many others. I know we recently had a thread about the reliability of Wikipedia, but it does do a good job of listing different movements: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_Neopaganism

A major dividing line between Vanatru and other forms of Germanic Paganism is which gods we honour. Many Asatru honour both the Aesir (Odin, Thor, Tyr) and the Vanir (Njord, Freyja, Freyr), but they tend to honour the Aesir primarily and the Vanir secondarily. The loosest definition of someone who is “Vanatru” is “someone who has one of the Vanir as a patron, someone who worships the Vanir primarily and the Aesir secondarily, or someone who worships the Vanir exclusively”.

It’s difficult to come up with an exact analogy, but it’s almost like saying: “A Christian is someone who believes in and follows the teachings of Jesus.” Sort of.

The second big difference is that Vanic Pagans may or may not be reconstructionist in their approach to religion. Again, some will worship the Vanir in exactly the same way as someone who is a member of Asatru would, reasoning that, well, these deities were worshiped in that way historically. Others say that the surviving lore is largely focused on “important” deities like Odin and Tyr, whereas we only have a few stories about Freyr and his family, and that there were important differences in cultic practice and general behaviour (Snorri mentions that the Vanir practiced incest while the Aesir do not, the Aesir also seem much more concerned with adultery and such).

I think that basically what I’m trying to say is: “We have the same pantheon, but we have different ways of approaching that pantheon.”

Let’s see, some other differences:

I often call Vanatru “Asatru’s earth-based hippie cousin” because there does seem to be more of a focus on nature–whereas many Asatruar will LOUDLY proclaim that they’re “not an earth-based tradition” (which is, to some extent, true). This has to do in part with reconstructionist traditions trying to distance themselves from Wicca, which is probably the Pagan tradition that most people recognize.

This probably seems a little confusing because I’m throwing lots of terms and viewpoints around. First let me say that I don’t consider myself to be a reconstructionist, hence why I don’t refer to myself as a ‘Heathen’ (which tends to imply that one is a reconstructionist). I have my own issues with the way some of my fellow Pagans treat the written records and scholarship in general. I could probably go on, but I’d almost need another post to get all my thoughts down.

 

[Tyuiop411]

This was a common view I ran across as well. I think because many Pagans come from Jewish or Christian (mostly Christian), it’s a reactionary thing. They think that “because I reject monotheism I must then therefore completely reject YHVH (or Jesus, or both)” when really what they’re rejecting is how monotheists perceive YHVH and Jesus.

It depends on who you ask. Some believe that belief is what keeps a deity going, so if everyone stopped believing in a certain deity, that deity would cease to exist (although, we still name companies after gods, and we tell their stories, so I wonder if that is not a “belief” of some sort). Others (particularly “hard polytheists”) will say that gods don’t depend on human belief to sustain them. It’s not uncommon to find Pagans (even in the same group) who have radically different views of deity and yet still manage to come together for rituals. Myself, I used to subscribe to the “gods have power through human belief” but now I’m more “gods don’t depend on humans for things” (although mythologically, the Sumerian pantheon depended on sacrifices for sustenance), but I think both positions have their benefits and drawbacks.

Asatru is specifically Icelandic reconstructionist Heathenry. There are other types of Heathenry (Heathenry, btw, is basically a catch-all term for reconstructionist Germanic Paganism) such as Anglo-Saxon Heathenry, Frankish Heathenry, Forn Siðr (Scandinavian Heathenry) and many others. I know we recently had a thread about the reliability of Wikipedia, but it does do a good job of listing different movements: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_Neopaganism

A major dividing line between Vanatru and other forms of Germanic Paganism is which gods we honour. Many Asatru honour both the Aesir (Odin, Thor, Tyr) and the Vanir (Njord, Freyja, Freyr), but they tend to honour the Aesir primarily and the Vanir secondarily. The loosest definition of someone who is “Vanatru” is “someone who has one of the Vanir as a patron, someone who worships the Vanir primarily and the Aesir secondarily, or someone who worships the Vanir exclusively”.

It’s difficult to come up with an exact analogy, but it’s almost like saying: “A Christian is someone who believes in and follows the teachings of Jesus.” Sort of.

The second big difference is that Vanic Pagans may or may not be reconstructionist in their approach to religion. Again, some will worship the Vanir in exactly the same way as someone who is a member of Asatru would, reasoning that, well, these deities were worshiped in that way historically. Others say that the surviving lore is largely focused on “important” deities like Odin and Tyr, whereas we only have a few stories about Freyr and his family, and that there were important differences in cultic practice and general behaviour (Snorri mentions that the Vanir practiced incest while the Aesir do not, the Aesir also seem much more concerned with adultery and such).

I think that basically what I’m trying to say is: “We have the same pantheon, but we have different ways of approaching that pantheon.”

Let’s see, some other differences:

I often call Vanatru “Asatru’s earth-based hippie cousin” because there does seem to be more of a focus on nature–whereas many Asatruar will LOUDLY proclaim that they’re “not an earth-based tradition” (which is, to some extent, true). This has to do in part with reconstructionist traditions trying to distance themselves from Wicca, which is probably the Pagan tradition that most people recognize.

This probably seems a little confusing because I’m throwing lots of terms and viewpoints around. First let me say that I don’t consider myself to be a reconstructionist, hence why I don’t refer to myself as a ‘Heathen’ (which tends to imply that one is a reconstructionist). I have my own issues with the way some of my fellow Pagans treat the written records and scholarship in general. I could probably go on, but I’d almost need another post to get all my thoughts down.

Thanks for the answer, and don’t worry about throwing a bunch of terms around. I grew up with the Norse myths being read to me as a child, so I know the main players in the Norse pantheon and the main terms fairly well.

But your summary of Asatru seems pretty spot on with what I encountered when I was part of that movement. Wicca, from what I remember, was looked upon almost as the Antichrist (Anti-Thor? Anti-Odin?)

 

[Lokabrenna]

Thanks for the answer, and don’t worry about throwing a bunch of terms around. I grew up with the Norse myths being read to me as a child, so I know the main players in the Norse pantheon and the main terms fairly well.

But your summary of Asatru seems pretty spot on with what I encountered when I was part of that movement. Wicca, from what I remember, was looked upon almost as the Antichrist (Anti-Thor? Anti-Odin?)

“Wiccatru” is usually what they call it. Although, some actually do use it as a label nowadays (for any practice that combines Wicca and the worship of the Norse gods), but it has very negative connotations.

I personally think that Heathens tend to get a little overzealous with all the Wicca-bashing. I understand that Wicca is very popular (so popular that some people think Wicca = Paganism) and there is this desire among recons to differentiate between what is and what isn’t a reconstructed practice, but I don’t think one should need to put others down so that their position looks better. Perhaps you don’t see this so much in European Asatru (where Wicca’s probably not as prevalent) on the other hand, recent articles that I’ve read suggest that European Asatruar are absolutely baffled by some of the things that American Asatruar do. It’s very interesting.

 

[Lokabrenna]

I really don’t believe there should be a thread celebrating Paganism on CAF.

If Atheism is banned, how can a thread on “honoring” false gods and/or goddesses be allowed?

I understand the idea of “ask a pagan” but this seems more like a place for pagans to hang out and celebrate paganism.

Aw, I’m sorry you feel that way! However, I don’t see this thread as a thread about “honouring” anyone’s deities. Rather, it is a place where people can ask questions, to foster understanding, if not agreement. In fact, I’m not expecting anyone to agree with me. As I have said, if I wanted agreement, I’d go hang out on one of the Pagan forums.

Is it wrong for people to attempt to understand each other? Or would it be better for Christians (not just Catholics, but Christians) to believe wild and crazy things like how all Pagans sacrifice animals and have orgies on full moons?

 

[Ahimsa]

Or would it be better for Christians (not just Catholics, but Christians) to believe wild and crazy things like how all Pagans sacrifice animals…?

I never understood this critique. Most Christians eat animals, so they sacrifice animals (to their appetites) on a continual basis…which is why some Christians point to the fact that Elohim did not allow humans to eat meat until after the Flood.

 

[Lokabrenna]

I never understood this critique. Most Christians eat animals, so they sacrifice animals (to their appetites) on a continual basis…which is why some Christians point to the fact that Elohim did not allow humans to eat meat until after the Flood.

I think it’s because we moderns have this collective “ew” factor about sacrificing animals for purely religious purposes (and not, as you say, simply "sacrificing them to their stomachs). Now, some traditions (particularly Afro-Caribbean traditions like Vodou) do practice animal sacrifice, but many Pagans realize that:

1. Animal sacrifice is illegal in many parts of the world
2. Even if animal sacrifice was allowed, there’s historical precedent for giving other offerings

Historically, Heathens practiced both animal and human sacrifice, and I certainly haven’t come across anyone (not just Heathens, but any Pagan) who advocates human sacrifice. I don’t think many people in this day and age would want to worship a deity who likes human sacrifices (apart from H.P. Lovecraft fans), after all, if you ran out of sacrifices, who’s to say you wouldn’t be next?

I think Hinduism is a good example of this sort of change. At the time the Vedas were written, horse sacrifice was a very important component of the religion, that quickly became impractical, so the religion changed and adapted accordingly. The Vedas are still used in modern Hinduism(s), but in some ways it’s quite different from it’s roots. Recently, I came across a discussion among Pagans that asked the question: “What would our religions look like now if Christianity hadn’t interrupted the ‘flow’ of these traditions?” I personally think they would look a lot like Hinduism does now, but as it is, we’ll probably have to wait a long time to see if anything changes. Then again, Wicca is only about sixty years old, and it’s already changed quite a bit.

 

[Andromedus]

1. About animal sacrifices, do you know any pagan that sacrifice animals, but perhaps not all of the animal but just some part of it and then they take the other parts themselves (or at least the parts they like)? The Greeks did so if I remember correctly. Another way to sacrifice an animal is (again, if my memory is correct) to cook the meat like people normaly is done and then they eat it, and the sacrifice to the gods is kind of the smoke (or something else) which goes to the gods and they appreciate it. That way you don’t sacrifice an animal just because of religious reasons, which you said some people have problems with.
2. Since I think that the ancient norsemen and scandinavians didin’t worship the Vanir, why do you worship them and not the Aesir (and other things)?
3. Do you believe in beings from Scandinavian folklore which originally derives from Pagan sources or is related to those, or do you know someone believing in such things?
4. Do you live in a Nordic country? Just wondering if it might also be a cultural thing

If the English is bad, I apologise.

 

[Lokabrenna]

1. About animal sacrifices, do you know any pagan that sacrifice animals, but perhaps not all of the animal but just some part of it and then they take the other parts themselves (or at least the parts they like)? The Greeks did so if I remember correctly. Another way to sacrifice an animal is (again, if my memory is correct) to cook the meat like people normaly is done and then they eat it, and the sacrifice to the gods is kind of the smoke (or something else) which goes to the gods and they appreciate it. That way you don’t sacrifice an animal just because of religious reasons, which you said some people have problems with.

Some Afro-Caribbean traditions (particularly some forms of Santeria and Haitian Vodou) do sacrifice animals to the lwa/orishas, but I suspect the laws in those countries vary. I have heard of Heathens who raise their own animals killing them in a ritualistic manner and throwing a bar-be-que, but most Pagans I know aren’t that self-sufficient.

1. Since I think that the ancient norsemen and scandinavians didin’t worship the Vanir, why do you worship them and not the Aesir (and other things)?

It’s true that in some parts of the world, certain cults were not as popular as others, but that doesn’t mean that the other gods weren’t important. Freyr was popular in Sweden, for instance, and Swedish kings claimed descent from him (as kings so often do). To say that the Germanic tribes (wherever they happened to be at the time) didn’t worship their gods (whether Aesir or Vanir) sounds…odd…to me, as many place names in Northern Europe can attest to at least the presence of believers. (I wish I could find a list of them. I will ask around.)

1. Do you believe in beings from Scandinavian folklore which originally derives from Pagan sources or is related to those, or do you know someone believing in such things?

If you mean beings like the jotnar, alfar, disir, and wights (among other things), many do believe in the literal existence of such beings, and will give offerings to the house-wight or land-wight. I can’t tell you if they exist or not since I’ve never encountered a land spirit, I can only relate what others have said about them.

1. Do you live in a Nordic country? Just wondering if it might also be a cultural thing

I live in Canada, which is up north, just not the north you’re probably thinking of! I should also note that Norse/Germanic Paganism as it is practiced in Europe (particularly Iceland) is very different from how it’s practiced in North America. I rather like how the Icelanders do things, actually.

 

[cmforte]

No less than God coming down from on High and saying: “Hey you! I’m real! Also, I’m actually the only deity out here. You’ve been deceived by demons the whole time. Sorry it took Me so long to tell you!” and even then, I’d have some questions.

In all honesty, I don’t know if it’s possible to convince me (isn’t the Holy Spirit supposed to do that, anyways?). The argument that begins with: “Well, the Bible says…” isn’t going to cut it. I don’t accept the Bible as authoritative anymore than you would accept the Eddas to have any authority over you. In fact, even the Eddas don’t have the sort of authority that Christians ascribe to the Bible. (For starters, the Eddas were first written down by Christians).

We christians believe God did exactly that through Jesus! Too bad he doesn’t do it like that today!!

You hit the nail right on the head about, “The argument that begins with: “Well, the Bible says…” isn’t going to cut it. I don’t accept the Bible as authoritative anymore than you would accept the Eddas to have any authority over you.” That is why I love being a Catholic and why I decided to be Catholic…we don’t say that!! We don’t believe in Sola Scriptura!! I needed a Church that stands on more than just a book, like say, Apostolic Succession and Tradition? And 2,000 years of a living and continuous history?

-Chris

 

[Andromedus]

Some Afro-Caribbean traditions (particularly some forms of Santeria and Haitian Vodou) do sacrifice animals to the lwa/orishas, but I suspect the laws in those countries vary. I have heard of Heathens who raise their own animals killing them in a ritualistic manner and throwing a bar-be-que, but most Pagans I know aren’t that self-sufficient.

No, it isn’t so weird, of course, that not everyone can raise their own animals.

It’s true that in some parts of the world, certain cults were not as popular as others, but that doesn’t mean that the other gods weren’t important. Freyr was popular in Sweden, for instance, and Swedish kings claimed descent from him (as kings so often do). To say that the Germanic tribes (wherever they happened to be at the time) didn’t worship their gods (whether Aesir or Vanir) sounds…odd…to me, as many place names in Northern Europe can attest to at least the presence of believers. (I wish I could find a list of them. I will ask around.)

No, its just that according to old myths the Aesir and the Vanir were fighting, but after awhile they grew tired of it and made peace and then I think some of the gods from the Aesir became Vanir gods and three gods from the Vanir joined the Aesir. The three Vanir gods were Freja, Frej and Njord (sorry, not sure on the English versions of the names). But I don’t remember any name of the other Vanir-gods and I think they are not mentioned either, but I could be wrong. However, the myths in the Eddas is probably not all true myths, in the meaning that the pagans didin’t believe in them, most of our stories about the norse gods were written in Christian times. So I don’t say that the germanic tribes didin’t worship their gods (which would be strange), but I am saying that this myth about the war between the Vanir and the Aesir likely is made up in Christian times and therefore Freja, Frej and Njord were just normal gods like the rest of the Aesir. Therfore I mean that the Vanir pantheon, as another pantheon than the Aesir one, didin’t exist. However, I am not 100 % sure about all of my claims, and perhaps there is a Vanir deity which didin’t join the Aesir but was still worshiped.

And yes I know a couple of places with names from old pagan gods. But as long as you don’t count Freja, Frej and Njord as Vanir gods, then I don’t know about a location with a Vanir-god name. But tthey can still exist of course. Then there is also gods, like Ull, which isn’t mentioned very much, or at al in the written sources we have but stil got places named after them. So perhaps an old Vanir got his/her name attached to a place somewhere.

If you mean beings like the jotnar, alfar, disir, and wights (among other things), many do believe in the literal existence of such beings, and will give offerings to the house-wight or land-wight. I can’t tell you if they exist or not since I’ve never encountered a land spirit, I can only relate what others have said about them.

Yes, among other things, though I prefer the names in my mother tounge And yes, I know that there is people which believe in such beings, the funny thing is that not all of them is Pagans.

I live in Canada, which is up north, just not the north you’re probably thinking of! I should also note that Norse/Germanic Paganism as it is practiced in Europe (particularly Iceland) is very different from how it’s practiced in North America. I rather like how the Icelanders do things, actually.

Ah, but there is only one true ‘‘The North’’.

 

[AnAtheist]

This is the reason why I never really pursued paganism further because I never could rationalize how a Being which was imperfect could be called a god since I myself am an imperfect Being and could never claim to be a god.

Firstly the term “perfect being” is not well defined. What does “perfect” regarding a person mean?
Secondly, if things like omnipotence are meant, those are logically impossible. This “impefect” pagan gods are not logically impossible, putting aside whether or how they might exist.

If I’m imperfect and the “gods” are imperfect then we are equals.

Not every pagan (at least not the ones I know) believes, their gods are running around on two legs. To them gods are personalised forces of nature, ideals, ideas. E.g., the Christian god would be a personalised concept of love (caritas) then.

Epicuros said: “Gods are the ideals the wise do follow.”

So they are not worshipping someone equal but something they behold as valuable, desirable - in short worthy. Which is a far better way than to worship someone because he is more powerful, if you ask me.

 

[Lokabrenna]

So they are not worshipping someone equal but something they behold as valuable, desirable - in short worthy. Which is a far better way than to worship someone because he is more powerful, if you ask me.

This, just this.

 

[Lokabrenna]

No, its just that according to old myths the Aesir and the Vanir were fighting, but after awhile they grew tired of it and made peace and then I think some of the gods from the Aesir became Vanir gods and three gods from the Vanir joined the Aesir. The three Vanir gods were Freja, Frej and Njord (sorry, not sure on the English versions of the names). But I don’t remember any name of the other Vanir-gods and I think they are not mentioned either, but I could be wrong. However, the myths in the Eddas is probably not all true myths, in the meaning that the pagans didn’t believe in them, most of our stories about the norse gods were written in Christian times. So I don’t say that the germanic tribes didin’t worship their gods (which would be strange), but I am saying that this myth about the war between the Vanir and the Aesir likely is made up in Christian times and therefore Freja, Frej and Njord were just normal gods like the rest of the Aesir. Therfore I mean that the Vanir pantheon, as another pantheon than the Aesir one, didin’t exist. However, I am not 100 % sure about all of my claims, and perhaps there is a Vanir deity which didin’t join the Aesir but was still worshiped.

I personally think that modern Pagans get very worked up about labels when our ancestors wouldn’t have had that problem. The term “Heathen” for instance, was a pejorative term when it was first used, and yet people have adopted the term to refer to their beliefs, same with Pagan. They wouldn’t necessarily have referred to themselves as Pagans, just said: “I serve/worship/follow X deity/the deities of X people,” or something.

And yes I know a couple of places with names from old pagan gods. But as long as you don’t count Freja, Frej and Njord as Vanir gods, then I don’t know about a location with a Vanir-god name. But tthey can still exist of course. Then there is also gods, like Ull, which isn’t mentioned very much, or at al in the written sources we have but stil got places named after them. So perhaps an old Vanir got his/her name attached to a place somewhere.

In general, when my fellow Vanatruar speak of “the Vanir”, they are referring to these deities:

Freyr
Freya
Njord

and sometimes

Nerthus/Earth Mother

and others.

All of these deities could still be considered “Aesir” (in the sense that Aesir/As is one word for the collective of gods), that’s why Freyr is called “foremost among the Aesir”. For me, the label “Vanatru” is just easier to say than “Freyr-Freyja-Njord-Nerthus-Gerda-Skadi-whoever else-tru” that’s a mouthful and I don’t think it’s entirely accurate anyways.

Yes, among other things, though I prefer the names in my mother tounge And yes, I know that there is people which believe in such beings, the funny thing is that not all of them is Pagans.

I think it’s kind of like the Irish who believe in fairies (despite being Catholic) in that there are aspects of older traditions that have survived even after their believers have converted.

 

[Andromedus]

In general, when my fellow Vanatruar speak of “the Vanir”, they are referring to these deities:

Freyr
Freya
Njord

and sometimes

Nerthus/Earth Mother

and others.

Ok, but you don’t worship Odin, Thor and the others then? By the way, an interesting thing about Nerthus is that there is some people claiming she is an older, female version of the god Njord. But since we don’t know a lot about the pre-christian religion among the norsemen it could be wrong.

All of these deities could still be considered “Aesir” (in the sense that Aesir/As is one word for the collective of gods), that’s why Freyr is called “foremost among the Aesir”. For me, the label “Vanatru” is just easier to say than “Freyr-Freyja-Njord-Nerthus-Gerda-Skadi-whoever else-tru” that’s a mouthful and I don’t think it’s entirely accurate anyways.

Personaly I would call them Aesir, because I don’t think the Norsemen believed in two sorts of god-peoples divided in Aesir and Vanir. Thats what I meant earlier, the division in Aesir and Vanir is fiction made in Christian times and the war between them was just a story someone wrote. However, I could be wrong. But since you are the one believing in these gods I suppose you can call them whatever you want.

I think it’s kind of like the Irish who believe in fairies (despite being Catholic) in that there are aspects of older traditions that have survived even after their believers have converted.

Not long ago in my country, Sweden, there was people believing in such beings, and there still is a few, but the belief in them has definitely decreased during the last century. But even if people don’t believe in trolls there is still some believing in ghosts, but I think thats the case in almost all countries, if not all.

Again, if my English is bad, I apologise.

 

[Lokabrenna]

Ok, but you don’t worship Odin, Thor and the others then? By the way, an interesting thing about Nerthus is that there is some people claiming she is an older, female version of the god Njord. But since we don’t know a lot about the pre-christian religion among the norsemen it could be wrong.

I personally don’t have much to do with Odin, Thor, and Tyr in particular, although I respect them. I think certain gods will be more “compatible” with certain people. Some may be comfortable honouring one god for every day of the week (Tyr on Tuesday, Thor on Thursday) others may just be drawn to worshiping particular gods. It’s not that the other gods are “bad” or that those gods don’t exist.

As for the Nerthus/Njord thing, I don’t know enough about it to argue either for or against (although I gather it has something to do with names and cognates and such) but I do know that the only source for Nerthus (in which she is referred to by that name) is Tacitus, and therein lies the problem with taking the eddas and sagas too literally. Everything that we have on this cosmology was written down by outsiders. Sometimes I think it would be easier to be a Hellenic Pagan. The Greeks wrote stuff down!

Personaly I would call them Aesir, because I don’t think the Norsemen believed in two sorts of god-peoples divided in Aesir and Vanir. Thats what I meant earlier, the division in Aesir and Vanir is fiction made in Christian times and the war between them was just a story someone wrote. However, I could be wrong. But since you are the one believing in these gods I suppose you can call them whatever you want.

That’s actually a matter of debate among scholars right now. Rudolf Simek (who is a very well-respected scholar in Germanic reconstructionist circles, and a Catholic) recently wrote a paper arguing that no one would have known of “the Vanir” as a separate tribe, and that the word was simply an archaic term for “the gods” that fell out of use by the time Snorri was writing about them.

Not long ago in my country, Sweden, there was people believing in such beings, and there still is a few, but the belief in them has definitely decreased during the last century. But even if people don’t believe in trolls there is still some believing in ghosts, but I think thats the case in almost all countries, if not all.

Well, there are lots of people who aren’t Jewish, Christian, or Muslim who believe in angels. I think that perhaps it’s easier to believe in “lesser beings” who seem more intimately involved in human life than “bigger” powers like the gods.

 

[vsedriver]

A common statement I see is that: “The Divine is too big to only manifest in one form.”

I would say the opposite… The Divine can only be Divine if manifested in one supreme being.

I can only worship something greater than myself.

 

[Lokabrenna]

I would say the opposite… The Divine can only be Divine if manifested in one supreme being.

I can only worship something greater than myself.

Except that’s not exactly what a polytheist means when they say something like that. In particular, “hard” polytheists (who believe that each deity is an individual and not say, an archetype) would say that of course Gaia/Odin/Inanna/[insert your deity of choice here] is greater (greater in power) than humans. It’s part of what makes them gods (but only a part). What Pagans don’t expect is that their gods be paragons of virtue. I personally find it much easier to relate to a deity like Freyja or Skadi than the God of my childhood and early teen years.

There’s also what AnAtheist said: gods represent desirable/admirable qualities. For me, Freyr represents the concept of “frith”: which is something like peace, security, protection, but the sort of peace that one needs to work to obtain, that is worth something to me.

 

[Andromedus]

Ok, I come up with one more question

Do you believe in fate? I know that some people practicing Asatru (swedish: Asatro, no reason to tell people that but the fun of doing it… or something) believs in destiny or fate to some degree.