Ask a Pagan

[joe371]

True. But who started the rumor that He had risen from the dead? And what did he get for starting that rumor except persecution and death? And when did this rumor get started?

I cannot think of one good reason why any 1st century Jewish person e.g. Peter and Paul, would want to abandon their Jewish roots in favor of some newfangled movement that is destined to upset the applecart, other than Jesus actually rising from the dead.

 

[Skadi]

Think about it: all they (Jewish leaders) would have to do is reveal the body of Jesus and Christianity would have been halted. Does history tell us that they found the body of Jesus, in your opinion?

No, but how does no one finding someones body doesn’t prove anything. Even today with modern forensics and search dogs, working with teams of volunteers, modern police sometimes cant even find a body. So if someone took it out into the desert and burned it, or even just buried it up in the hills somewhere, it would be outrageous to think the authorities could find his body.

 

[joe371]

YES

OK take care…

 

[mlamg]

Think about it: all they (Jewish leaders) would have to do is reveal the body of Jesus and Christianity would have been halted. Does history tell us that they found the body of Jesus, in your opinion?

No one found Jimmy Hoffa either, LOL.

 

[mlamg]

OK take care…

You too!

 

[PRmerger]

No one found Jimmy Hoffa either, LOL.

Did he claim to be fulfilling a prophecy in which he would rise?

And did his enemies know where he was buried so they could simply go to his grave and produce his body to prove false his claim?

 

[mlamg]

I cannot think of one good reason why any 1st century Jewish person e.g. Peter and Paul, would want to abandon their Jewish roots in favor of some newfangled movement that is destined to upset the applecart, other than Jesus actually rising from the dead.

Ask the followers of Jim Jones why they followed him. Or the followers of any other cult in the world. The human mind does not always make sense. Emotion takes over and the mind takes a back seat. It happens every day. I’m sure it happened every day in the year 30AD as well.

 

[joe371]

No, but how does no one finding someones body doesn’t prove anything. Even today with modern forensics and search dogs, working with teams of volunteers, modern police sometimes cant even find a body. So if someone took it out into the desert and burned it, or even just buried it up in the hills somewhere, it would be outrageous to think the authorities could find his body.

All they (Jewish leaders) would have to do is reveal the body of Jesus and the Christ movement would not have occurred, logically speaking.

As I mentioned to PR: I cannot think of one good reason why any 1st century Jewish person e.g. Peter and Paul, would want to abandon their Jewish roots in favor of some newfangled movement that is destined to upset the applecart, other than Jesus actually rising from the dead.

 

[joe371]

Ask the followers of Jim Jones why they followed him. Or the followers of any other cult in the world. The human mind does not always make sense. Emotion takes over and the mind takes a back seat. It happens every day. I’m sure it happened every day in the year 30AD as well.

Surely you are not comparing Jim Jones and company, to the early Christian movement? Those followers eventually tried to get away from that madman…But, I respect your right to believe what you want…

 

[mlamg]

Surely you are not comparing Jim Jones and company, to the early Christian movement? Those followers eventually tried to get away from that madman…But, I respect your right to believe what you want…

I’m not comparing anything, I’m simply giving you an example of how the mind works sometimes. And actually, no, many of his followers willing drank the kool-aid and gave it to their children. Their devotion and belief did not prove in any way that what they believed was right.

 

[joe371]

I’m not comparing anything, I’m simply giving you an example of how the mind works sometimes. And actually, no, many of his followers willing drank the kool-aid and gave it to their children. Their devotion and belief did not prove in any way that what they believed was right.

Why not entertain the possibility that the Christ movement was the result of Jesus rising from the dead? Long ago, miracles prevented me from believing, at least until I researched Fatima, at the request of a family member. Is that the case with you?

Just curious: what are your thoughts on Fatima, witnessed by thousands of people, both scoffers and believers in terms of the accurate prediction of the children and the miracle?

 

[SteveVH]

Why, should we not look at things critically?

Yes, absolutely we should look at things critically. Why don’t we do that.

the Bible itself warns of false prophets. Why Is Jesus not one?

Why would you believe anything written in the Bible? The entire story, from Genesis to Revelation centers on Jesus, whom you consider to be a false prophet. Why would you use this as a valid source for your argument? Do you believe the Bible, or just parts that help your argument?

What makes the claim that Jesus turned water into wine more credible than the claim Odin rode onto the field at Lena and lead the Pagan Swedes to victory over the Christian Danes?

Because we have many, many witnesses to the life of Christ. They witnessed these miracles, among many more. One can make any claim they wish, but how many people wrote down an eyewitness account of Odin riding onto the field at Lena.

 

[Skadi]

All they (Jewish leaders) would have to do is reveal the body of Jesus and the Christ movement would not have occurred, logically speaking.

As I mentioned to PR: I cannot think of one good reason why any 1st century Jewish person e.g. Peter and Paul, would want to abandon their Jewish roots in favor of some newfangled movement that is destined to upset the applecart, other than Jesus actually rising from the dead.

Thats what im saying. How hard is it to steal the body and go bury it in the hills? 2 Roman guards wouldn’t be to difficult to overcome for a group of conspirators.

 

[Porknpie]

Really? Where does it say that in the bible, other then Paul saying it?

I wasn’t thinking about Paul but that’s a good point. I was thinking more about Mark. The Word of God is for the ALL THE WORD… ALL CREATION… and not for a tiny community as you say.

14 Later he appeared to the eleven themselves as they were sitting at the table; and he upbraided them for their lack of faith and stubbornness, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen.[c] 15 **And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the good news[d] to the whole creation. **16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned.

And the Gospel of Matthew 28…Jesus himself says to make disciples of all nations.
16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”[d]

You know Paul, the guy who opposed the apostles, including Jesus’ brother James. And I won’t even get into how Paul changed nearly everything about Jesus’ message.

You seem to think Paul was Anti-Catholic. Here’s a short catholic.com tract that addresses your thoughts or do you have some different ones?

Error? Please prove it.

What’s your definition of proof?

 

[Skadi]

Yes, absolutely we should look at things critically. Why don’t we do that.

Why would you believe anything written in the Bible? The entire story, from Genesis to Revelation centers on Jesus, whom you consider to be a false prophet. Why would you use this as a valid source for your argument? Do you believe the Bible, or just parts that help your argument?

Because we have many, many witnesses to the life of Christ. They witnessed these miracles, among many more. One can make any claim they wish, but how many people wrote down an eyewitness account of Odin riding onto the field at Lena.

1. Many Christians act as though they have never questioned their faith. I think alot of peoples faith (in all religions) comes from being raised in a religion and their inability to even consider they may be wrong. Someone suggesting that is spitting the words of Satan to tear them away from the true faith. Catholics dont tend to be like this, thats more of an evangelical thing, but it affects every faith on earth because everyone suffers from pride.

2.I don’t, but i’m arguing from your point of view. If the bible is true and infallible then it warns very specifically about Jesus-like figures. On thing those people I speak of in answer 1 are totally incapable or unwilling to view the world from some elses perspective. Every time I discuss stuff like this most people come in debating like Jesus’s miracles are just established facts.

I dont believe the bible but you do, and if you believe all of it that would include the parts where God warns the Jews of false prophets, and the Jewish description of Messiah (which Jesus does not meet). If you start throwing out quotes from the Eddas contesting my positions then by all means I will listen, but Christians blatantly ignore some parts of their own book for the most part, or try to explain it away.

 

[Skadi]

As I mentioned to PR: I cannot think of one good reason why any 1st century Jewish person e.g. Peter and Paul, would want to abandon their Jewish roots in favor of some newfangled movement that is destined to upset the applecart, other than Jesus actually rising from the dead.

I cannot think of one good reason that any self respecting Christian farmer from New York or the Midwest to suddenly abandon his faith, join the Mormon church (which at the time was being martyred right here in America, and which the governor of Missouri had literally threatened to “exterminate”) and set out across the great plains and rocky mountains to live in the Utah desert.

Christians often portray the story of early Christians martyrdom and choice of a life of persecution as proving the truth of their religion. But in fact this sort of things has happened many times in history.

So, what other reason would this Mormon have than the Book of Mormon literally speaking to their soul in its truth?

 

[SteveVH]

1. Many Christians act as though they have never questioned their faith. I think alot of peoples faith (in all religions) comes from being raised in a religion and their inability to even consider they may be wrong. Someone suggesting that is spitting the words of Satan to tear them away from the true faith. Catholics dont tend to be like this, thats more of an evangelical thing, but it affects every faith on earth because everyone suffers from pride.

2.I don’t, but i’m arguing from your point of view. If the bible is true and infallible then it warns very specifically about Jesus-like figures. On thing those people I speak of in answer 1 are totally incapable or unwilling to view the world from some elses perspective. Every time I discuss stuff like this most people come in debating like Jesus’s miracles are just established facts.

I dont believe the bible but you do, and if you believe all of it that would include the parts where God warns the Jews of false prophets, and the Jewish description of Messiah (which Jesus does not meet). If you start throwing out quotes from the Eddas contesting my positions then by all means I will listen, but Christians blatantly ignore some parts of their own book for the most part, or try to explain it away.

The Bible warns of false prophets, yes. And then it goes on to reveal Jesus as much more than just a prophet. No other “prophet” was resurrected of his own power. Jesus claimed to be God. No other prophet did that. Jesus backed up his words with miracles.

We can prove, from sources outside of the Bible that Jesus and the Apostles and many of his disciples were historical characters. We can listen to their words, to their witness of Jesus’ life and decide whether or not they sound credible. And we must consider what ulterior motive one must have in order to join an organization whereby membership meant persecution and many times death. Sorry, People don’t die for a hoax. I wonder how many people would give their lives for “Odin”. One thing is for certain; Odin did not give his life for you. That was Jesus.

 

[joe371]

I cannot think of one good reason that any self respecting Christian farmer from New York or the Midwest to suddenly abandon his faith, join the Mormon church (which at the time was being martyred right here in America, and which the governor of Missouri had literally threatened to “exterminate”) and set out across the great plains and rocky mountains to live in the Utah desert.

Christians often portray the story of early Christians martyrdom and choice of a life of persecution as proving the truth of their religion. But in fact this sort of things has happened many times in history.

So, what other reason would this Mormon have than the Book of Mormon literally speaking to their soul in its truth?

Which was why I converted to the CC, founded by Jesus, circa AD 33 in Jerusalem. I do not believe that martyrdom is proof of anything. Lot’s of people die for their beliefs. But I digress. I kind of went off topic: Ask a pagan.

 

[joe371]

Thats what im saying. How hard is it to steal the body and go bury it in the hills? 2 Roman guards wouldn’t be to difficult to overcome for a group of conspirators.

So, the theory is: the apostles, who feared the Romans and the Jewish leaders, (and as a result were hiding) had a change of heart (not as a result of Pentecost) and then proceeded to beat those guards up, steal the body, bury it, and then boldly proclaim a lie and knowingly die for a lie? That makes no sense to me.

 

[Skadi]

So, the theory is: the apostles, who feared the Romans and the Jewish leaders, (and as a result were hiding) had a change of heart (not as a result of Pentecost) and then proceeded to beat those guards up, steal the body, bury it, and then boldly proclaim a lie and knowingly die for a lie? That makes no sense to me.

What we know of the story was written by people who talked to the apostles, if the apostles had done this why tell the truth? They may very well have not hidden in fear. With Jesus dead what did the priests have to fear from his followers.

If you believe Catholicism then you believe Joseph Smith knowingly died for a lie. He had every opportunity in that jail in Carthage, Illinois to save his life and admit his lies, or even just bow to the demands of the Mormon decenters, but he went down guns blazing, and was shot out a second story window screaming “Oh Lord My God!!!”. Please explain how this is possible yet it is just insane to suggest the apostles could have done similar? And if you think Catholicism is true then this would be only one occasion of such fanaticism.

Mens egos have a huge effect on their minds, as does the powers of fear and faith.