Ask a Pagan

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Skadi said:
If you believe Catholicism then you believe Joseph Smith knowingly died for a lie.
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Wrong. He died trying to save his own bacon after firing his gun at a crowd and jumping out the back window of the jail. Not quite the same thing as giving one your head rather than denying the one, true God.
 
SteveVH said:
Wrong. He died trying to save his own bacon after firing his gun at a crowd and jumping out the back window of the jail. Not quite the same thing as giving one your head rather than denying the one, true God.
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Smith had every opportunity to save himself by conceding to the other Mormon leaders, but he refused. If Smith had wanted, he could have appeased the crowd and saved his skin, and possibly even retained his followers.

Ill never understand how you can blatantly deny how people have and still do sometimes die for things they know to be a lie.
 
joe371 said:
Why not entertain the possibility that the Christ movement was the result of Jesus rising from the dead? Long ago, miracles prevented me from believing, at least until I researched Fatima, at the request of a family member. Is that the case with you?

Just curious: what are your thoughts on Fatima, witnessed by thousands of people, both scoffers and believers in terms of the accurate prediction of the children and the miracle?
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I do not believe that God goes against nature or natural law. I believe that God can be ‘seen’ most easily in the natural world, and so ‘he’ does not break his own laws of nature.

I believe Fatima to be a fraud. Most modern day miracles, if they go against the laws of nature, I believe to be fraudulent. That’s just me. 🙂
 
Porknpie said:
What’s your definition of proof?
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I’m sure you can Google it, LOL. As for the rest, that passage was determined to be added after the fact. It wasn’t written by the same person who wrote Mark. The story changed.
 
Skadi said:
What we know of the story was written by people who talked to the apostles, if the apostles had done this why tell the truth? They may very well have not hidden in fear. With Jesus dead what did the priests have to fear from his followers.

If you believe Catholicism then you believe Joseph Smith knowingly died for a lie. He had every opportunity in that jail in Carthage, Illinois to save his life and admit his lies, or even just bow to the demands of the Mormon decenters, but he went down guns blazing, and was shot out a second story window screaming “Oh Lord My God!!!”. Please explain how this is possible yet it is just insane to suggest the apostles could have done similar? And if you think Catholicism is true then this would be only one occasion of such fanaticism.

Mens egos have a huge effect on their minds, as does the powers of fear and faith.
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First, is this what you believe probably happened:

The apostles, who feared the Romans, knowing that breaking the law could lead to crucifixion (and as a result were hiding) had a change of heart (not as a result of Pentecost but rather a need to invent a religion) and then proceeded to beat those well-trained Roman guards up, steal the body, bury it, and then boldly proclaim a lie and knowingly die for a lie?

It is not insane to suggest the apostles could have done similar. Is it insane to suggest that the apostles were in fact who they claimed to be: the first leaders of Jesus’ church i.e. Gods’ church?
 
joe371 said:
First, is this what you believe probably happened:

The apostles, who feared the Romans, knowing that breaking the law could lead to crucifixion (and as a result were hiding) had a change of heart (not as a result of Pentecost but rather a need to invent a religion) and then proceeded to beat those well-trained Roman guards up, steal the body, bury it, and then boldly proclaim a lie and knowingly die for a lie?

It is not insane to suggest the apostles could have done similar. Is it insane to suggest that the apostles were in fact who they claimed to be: the first leaders of Jesus’ church i.e. Gods’ church?
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Who knows what happened to the body? The only people who said there were guards were Christians, no non-Christians. Is it not possible that the story was skewed in their favor? If anything, Jews guarded the burial site. The Romans couldn’t care less.

And yes, of course the apostles were the first leaders of the church. But that doesn’t prove that anyone rose from the dead. Anyone can say anything. All the bible says is “Many people witnessed these things.” No names, no proof of anything. I can sit here and way that many people witness my own miracles, lol, it doesn’t make it true. ,
 
mlamg said:
I do not believe that God goes against nature or natural law. I believe that God can be ‘seen’ most easily in the natural world, and so ‘he’ does not break his own laws of nature.

I believe Fatima to be a fraud. Most modern day miracles, if they go against the laws of nature, I believe to be fraudulent. That’s just me. 🙂
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Fatima a fraud. Well, I guess that is that…🤷 Curious. How did the 3 little children succeed at fulfilling their prediction? Just showed up with thousands of people hoping that on that day something that defies nature would happen? I don’t think you believe that, do you?

So if something miraculous goes against the laws of nature, you believe it to be fraudulent? That so confuses me. No miracles, no reason to believe in the supernatural. A supernatural act occurs witnessed by thousands, dismiss because goes against the laws of nature. OK…🤷

I don’t even know what this means: I do not believe that God goes against nature or natural law.
 
mlamg said:
Who knows what happened to the body? The only people who said there were guards were Christians, no non-Christians. Is it not possible that the story was skewed in their favor? If anything, Jews guarded the burial site. The Romans couldn’t care less.
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It is not insane to suggest the apostles could have done similar. Is it insane to suggest that the apostles were in fact who they claimed to be: the first leaders of Jesus’ church i.e. Gods’ church?
 
Skadi said:
Smith had every opportunity to save himself by conceding to the other Mormon leaders, but he refused. If Smith had wanted, he could have appeased the crowd and saved his skin, and possibly even retained his followers.

Ill never understand how you can blatantly deny how people have and still do sometimes die for things they know to be a lie.
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He wasn’t in jail for his religious beliefs. Anyway, this is the “Ask a Pagan” thread, not the “Ask a Mormon” thread. As much as I would like to discuss it, we’re way off topic.
 
joe371 said:
It is not insane to suggest the apostles could have done similar. Is it insane to suggest that the apostles were in fact who they claimed to be: the first leaders of Jesus’ church i.e. Gods’ church?
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I edited, go back and read.

As for Fatima, a lot of people think it was a fraud. I’m not here to debate it. Go Google why people find it a fraud. No, I don’t believe in miracles to the degree that they are represented in the bible or at Fatima. God IS natural law. He doesn’t break his own laws.
 
mlamg said:
Who knows what happened to the body? The only people who said there were guards were Christians, no non-Christians. Is it not possible that the story was skewed in their favor? If anything, Jews guarded the burial site. The Romans couldn’t care less.

And yes, of course the apostles were the first leaders of the church. But that doesn’t prove that anyone rose from the dead. Anyone can say anything. All the bible says is “Many people witnessed these things.” No names, no proof of anything. I can sit here and way that many people witness my own miracles, lol, it doesn’t make it true. ,
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Well, as you know, Christianity is a faith-based religion, and, if you do not believe, then you do not believe. That’s cool.👍 It is possible that Jesus was who said he was, and rose from the dead on the third day, or an impossibility?
 
mlamg said:
I edited, go back and read.

As for Fatima, a lot of people think it was a fraud. I’m not here to debate it. Go Google why people find it a fraud. No, I don’t believe in miracles to the degree that they are represented in the bible or at Fatima. God IS natural law. He doesn’t break his own laws.
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Did God tell you that He doesn’t break his own laws? LOL Really, how do you know what God will and will not do? I will ask one more time because I do not want to derail the thread. Not fair to the OP. The 3 little children succeed at fulfilling their prediction? What are the odds that upon showing up at the Cova along with with thousands of people, (who probably would have been upset if nothing had happened) hoping that on that exact day something miraculous would occur - actually happening by luck Which is more believable: these scared little peasant children concocted the whole thing and got lucky that day of the miracle, or the actual claim?
 
who turned u off to christianity the most and who turned u on to paganism the most and why.
 
Skadi said:
  1. Many Christians act as though they have never questioned their faith
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Well, it is good that you have come to the CAFs, where there is a plethora of Catholics who have questioned their faith, given it the critical eye, compared it to others and found the others wanting.
 
mlamg said:
There’s such a thing as being mistaken, or being overcome by emotion, or being so distressed that your mind can’t function properly. People do make mistakes.
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So the disciples were all fooled? Who was it that did the fooling? :confused:

I don’t understand the source of the mistake. What exactly did they mistake for Christ’s resurrection?
 
mlamg said:
And yes, of course the apostles were the first leaders of the church. But that doesn’t prove that anyone rose from the dead. Anyone can say anything. All the bible says is “Many people witnessed these things.” No names, no proof of anything. I can sit here and way that many people witness my own miracles, lol, it doesn’t make it true. ,
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If Christ was not resurrected, and did not appear to his disciples after His resurrection, then they all died for something they knew was a lie.I wouldn’t die for something I knew was a lie, would you?
 
Faithdancer said:
If Christ was not resurrected, and did not appear to his disciples after His resurrection, then they all died for something they knew was a lie.I wouldn’t die for something I knew was a lie, would you?
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No way.
 
joe371 said:
No way.
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Right on and sorry, Joe, I basically repeated your argument from post #304, which I didn’t see until afterward. Then again maybe it bears repeating. Perhaps the logic will sink in.
 
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