Ask a Pagan

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Skadi said:
I don’t see how the next two negate anything. If figuring out a hoax was so easy for ancient people and Christianity is the true faith then why weren’t all phony religions cast out? Why didnt the people immediate abandon their other faiths and swarm to Jesus after Christianity became legal? It took centuries after the Edict of Milan for Christianity to fully dominate Rome, and centuries more for it to dominate Europe. Why would people follow a phony like Muhammad or Martin Luther when hoax’s are just so evident to illiterate tribesmen and farmers?
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Speaking just from what is taken out of scripture, Jesus told us those that are his would accept his word. He never said all would. He even predicted that if we follow him, we should be prepared to take up our cross also.

He told us this is not his world and if the world hates you, remember it hated me first. He told us we will be hated because of him.

The reason people choose to reject him is quite simple. If you follow Jesus you have to give up sin, How can you live in a world made up of sin, and still be a follower of Christ. You can’t.

So you must reject sin and fight it your whole life. Kind of like fighting the whole world in which we live in. But this world is tempory, and we want the eternal world that is after this world which is paradise and last forever.

This is not our world just like it was not Christs. He told us that if this was his world and his people they would have fought for him, but they killed him.

But for those few that follow him and believe we will get to meet him face to face and watch him on the last day come down as he left. And then we will have the new world. The world of everlasting peace and love, no sorrow, or hate, because there will be no more death because there will be no more sin.
 
rinnie said:
Okay but history states yes he was executed and came back on the thrid day. Now why do you accept half of history but not the other half then?

Are you with that also on all history? You only believe what you want to believe and reject what you don’t believe. Just wondering, No disrespect.
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Do you believe Muhammad existed? History states he was given the final revelation of God via Gabrielle, so why do Christians deny that?

You can say something like you say for almost every religion. History states that Jesus was a man living in Judea in the first century who was killed, and his friends claimed he raised. Muhammad was a man from the Arabian peninsula who claimed to have the revelation of God.

These things are historically debatable. And my personal opinion is that both stories are false.
 
rinnie said:
Speaking just from what is taken out of scripture, Jesus told us those that are his would accept his word. He never said all would. He even predicted that if we follow him, we should be prepared to take up our cross also.

He told us this is not his world and if the world hates you, remember it hated me first. He told us we will be hated because of him.

The reason people choose to reject him is quite simple. If you follow Jesus you have to give up sin, How can you live in a world made up of sin, and still be a follower of Christ. You can’t.

So you must reject sin and fight it your whole life. Kind of like fighting the whole world in which we live in. But this world is temporary, and we want the eternal world that is after this world which is paradise and last forever.

This is not our world just like it was not Christs. He told us that if this was his world and his people they would have fought for him, but they killed him.

But for those few that follow him and believe we will get to meet him face to face and watch him on the last day come down as he left. And then we will have the new world. The world of everlasting peace and love, no sorrow, or hate, because there will be no more death because there will be no more sin.
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That is a very eloquent description of Christian belief, but my comments were more in response to the “Christianity couldn’t have survived if it wasn’t true” argument.
 
Skadi said:
Do you believe Muhammad existed? History states he was given the final revelation of God via Gabrielle, so why do Christians deny that?
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No. History does not state that. A book called the Koran states that. Big difference.
 
Skadi said:
I don’t see how the next two negate anything. If figuring out a hoax was so easy for ancient people and Christianity is the true faith then why weren’t all phony religions cast out? Why didnt the people immediate abandon their other faiths and swarm to Jesus after Christianity became legal? It took centuries after the Edict of Milan for Christianity to fully dominate Rome, and centuries more for it to dominate Europe. Why would people follow a phony like Muhammad or Martin Luther when hoax’s are just so evident to illiterate tribesmen and farmers?
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We have different opinions on rate of the spread of Christianity. Latest statistics I could find show Christianity at 33% of the world’s population. About 2.1 Billion people.

From 1 to 12 through ~350 years of deathly illegal, through ~1,200 years of mostly by mouth, through ~500 years with the printing press.

Through wars, through population booms, through populations wiped out by disease, through culture changes, in 20-25 generations.

33% of the world’s population? I see that as really fast.

I think an interesting question is why and how did Rome flip? Deathly illegal to dominated by in a few centuries?
 
Skadi said:
and a book called the bible states that jesus rose from the dead. not history.
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There are 4 different authors who wrote these texts.

Are you of the opinion, Skadi, that only things written in first person narrative by historians are reliable?
 
ffg said:
We have different opinions on rate of the spread of Christianity. Latest statistics I could find show Christianity at 33% of the world’s population. About 2.1 Billion people.

From 1 to 12 through ~350 years of deathly illegal, through ~1,200 years of mostly by mouth, through ~500 years with the printing press.

Through wars, through population booms, through populations wiped out by disease, through culture changes, in 20-25 generations.

33% of the world’s population? I see that as really fast.

I think an interesting question is why and how did Rome flip? Deathly illegal to dominated by in a few centuries?
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With the conversion of Constantine there began a series of back and forth between Pagan and Christian emperors, eventually ending with all future emperors being Christian. Christianity in that day was very hostile twords other religions and it was even declared by and ecumenical council that Christians should have no relation with non Christians. Being Christian eventually became a political necessity, and most of the wealthy and powerful converted. The word pagan literally means “country dweller” because it was the common country masses that were the last to convert, and only after most of the Pagan temples were laid waste and sacrifice to pagan gods made a crime punishable by death, a death threat that lasted in Italy a lot longer than Christianity’s 300 years of persecution.

You are correct about Christianities size, and most of the spread happened without modern technology, But Islam, 600 years younger and now growing faster has also grown amazingly.
 
Skadi said:
With the conversion of Constantine there began a series of back and forth between Pagan and Christian emperors, eventually ending with all future emperors being Christian. Christianity in that day was very hostile twords other religions and it was even declared by and ecumenical council that Christians should have no relation with non Christians. Being Christian eventually became a political necessity, and most of the wealthy and powerful converted. The word pagan literally means “country dweller” because it was the common country masses that were the last to convert, and only after most of the Pagan temples were laid waste and sacrifice to pagan gods made a crime punishable by death, a death threat that lasted in Italy a lot longer than Christianity’s 300 years of persecution.

You are correct about Christianities size, and most of the spread happened without modern technology, But Islam, 600 years younger and now growing faster has also grown amazingly.
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Very tight summary, I guess where I was going was to Constantine, point being and bigger scale question - Something I think I asked you a long time ago in this thread directly, but to be more on scale with the current discussion…

Are we learning for the sake of understanding if and where Truth is, or are we learning for the sake of building an empire of information in our grey matter?

We know truth exists, math shows us that on a simple scale. Why would we think it would not exist outside of the most obvious observations?
 
ffg said:
Very tight summary, I guess where I was going was to Constantine, point being and bigger scale question - Something I think I asked you a long time ago in this thread directly, but to be more on scale with the current discussion…

Are we learning for the sake of understanding if and where Truth is, or are we learning for the sake of building an empire of information in our grey matter?

We know truth exists, math shows us that on a simple scale. Why would we think it would not exist outside of the most obvious observations?
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i would say we learn to gain what understanding we can of the absolute truth, which is so grand and amazingly mind blowing that the human brain simply isn’t capable of comprehending it. But maybe, once our spirits are no longer tied to the limitations of a human mind we can.
 
Skadi said:
i would say we learn to gain what understanding we can of the absolute truth, which is so grand and amazingly mind blowing that the human brain simply isn’t capable of comprehending it. But maybe, once our spirits are no longer tied to the limitations of a human mind we can.
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Sounds good to me!👍 (and if I might, very Catholic except that I think the teaching is that our mind will still be ours upon leaving this rock.)

I assume we’ll have our thoughts, but the mystery shall be one until it is time.
 
I guess before I get flamed by the Catholics, I should be clear that a part of that learning process to Truth, is to be able to identify if some of the bigger picture has been revealed on this rock. If so, we are here to find it, learn it, teach it.

I also heard a great line the other day by someone who said, it’s also important to not look past this life on earth. Much of that teaching in the Catholic sense, is to help people understand that their life on earth is a part of the big picture, not just a journey towards it.
 
Skadi said:
Do you believe Muhammad existed? History states he was given the final revelation of God via Gabrielle, so why do Christians deny that?

You can say something like you say for almost every religion. History states that Jesus was a man living in Judea in the first century who was killed, and his friends claimed he raised. Muhammad was a man from the Arabian peninsula who claimed to have the revelation of God.

These things are historically debatable. And my personal opinion is that both stories are false.
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Because as you stated history. Muhammad claims to have given us the final revelation. Yet it is in direct conflict with the word of God.

The word of God predicted in the O.T. that we would receive our King. Christ is the word made flesh. It was all predicted in the O.T. to give us a heads up on what is true and what is false.

Scripture cannot contradict scripture. Muhammad does Jesus Christ does not.

God gave us reason and history to know the difference. That is what we have with the Church. Reason and Hostory,

Muhammad has neither.
 
Also I forgot to add, History does predict another.

Jesus told us after he left he would send the Holy Spirit to lead us into enternal life.

It is the Holy Spirit who is leading the Church until as history as you put it, or for Christians, Christ predicted HE would come again in Glory to judge the living and dead.

SO there is our proof.😃
 
rinnie said:
Because as you stated history. Muhammad claims to have given us the final revelation. Yet it is in direct conflict with the word of God.

The word of God predicted in the O.T. that we would receive our King. Christ is the word made flesh. It was all predicted in the O.T. to give us a heads up on what is true and what is false.

Scripture cannot contradict scripture. Muhammad does Jesus Christ does not.

God gave us reason and history to know the difference. That is what we have with the Church. Reason and Hostory,

Muhammad has neither.
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So you do not believe Muhammad received gods revelation because it conflicts with your religious belief in the bible. I do not believe Jesus rose from the dead because it conflicts with my religious beliefs. Neither one have any empirical evidence to support them, just circumstantial. But, when your talking with a person of another faith, you may not have the same opinions as them, so talking about the resurrection like its a historical fact they just ignore can come off as snobby.
 
Skadi said:
No, it isnt, but I dont believe it to be so. No one knows with absolute certainty, we weren’t there. that’s why its called faith. You have faith in the story of the resurrection, which is totally fine, I don’t. I just get a little tired of Christians acting like all the alternatives to the resurrection happening are so crazy and far fetched.
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I understand your frustration. BTW, is it fair to say that your religious beliefs are faith-based as well, and that no one knows with absolute certainty because we weren’t there?
 
joe371 said:
I understand your frustration. BTW, is it fair to say that your religious beliefs are faith-based as well, and that no one knows with absolute certainty because we weren’t there?
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Indeed, there isnt a religion on earth with proof. I never would talk to someone as if I had all the answers and they are a fool for not following my religion.
 
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