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joe371
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Actually the Catholic Church codified the Bible and gave it a table of contents, but I see what you mean.
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joe371
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If you are only answering off-topic questions, then you are not to blame; the one asking the question is…
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Skadi
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Sorry for lagging in my answer I had to go to work. the Honchō Hokke Reigenki is a Japanese book that recounts notable Buddhist miracles, although they are only attested to in a single, 1000 year old source, and such are debatable just like the miracles of Jesus and the Buddha. Also throughout the world every day people of many different religions preform “Faith Hearings”, of which I am skeptical but certainly could be true in some instances.
Just as you say a non-christian miracle dosnt discredit Christianity, a Christian miracle dosnt discredit soft-polytheism. If God is transcendent, everywhere and in everything, and reveals itself in a culturally relative way, then the form of Mary would be a natural form for talking to some turn of the century Spanish children, as Spanish culture has been heavily connected with Catholicism for over 1000 years.
One thing in modern Germanic religion that could be considered a “Miracle” is that the religion reformed almost simultaneously in Iceland, Britain, and the US, with all three groups being totally unaware of each other. While not necessarily a miracle many people, including myself, believe this is a sign that Odin the Wanderer is once again wandering the earth as he is said to have in olden times. Though I would say its safe to say that if he is he no longer dresses like Gandalf.
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Skadi
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I dont dismiss things not written by historians, but I am suspicious of religious books written by “Men of God” when they are used as a historical reference. The main goal of a historian is to record history. the main goal of a 1st century Christian is to go out and convert others to Christianity.
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Skadi
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The Germanic story also begins with one man and one woman, crafted from driftwood by the three sons of the first of the race of Gods. But the vast, vast majority of Pagans, of all practices, do not interpret these sort of stories literally. I dont think the ocean is the blood of a long dead giant as the story say, or that there literally is a giant snake in there that curls all the way round the world. Im a deist on creation, If the “is all” is made up of every energy in the universe, than it could intentionally or unintentionally animate stuff. The conditions were present on early earth, we just dont know how it makes the jump from gooey primordial soup to single celled organism. I do think that happened supernaturally. But after that, I am a firm believer in evolution.
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Skadi
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You obviously have me confused with a 15 year old “fluffy” Wiccan girl. Im not an outcast nor do I just want to dress up in costume (I would buy Samurai armor and swords before Nordic ones). There are times yes where I wish I had been born back when it was a bit easier to find a good death, but I was born now, and for a reason. The Nords have woven my destiny and thats that no changing it. I dont know where it will take me, but I like to think im a bit more… serious, about religion than you claim.
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Skadi
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And there are many people every day who claim to get over addiction and be healed by other deities aswell.But where is the proof. Remember what you said you don’t believe everything that was written? Do I believe the entire bible is correct? Of course I do. Why? Simple because it is the word of God.
Speaking of documents. How do you explain the millions through the years that claim that with the help of God they are cured.
Explain this to me, Why is it that hundreds and thousands are in these rehabs today for addictions, but it seems that the only ones that can truly beat these addictions seem to be going to Jesus Christ for strength and help?
Could it be possible that the word of God that you seem to reject as being the truth could indeed be truth.
How is it possible thousands years later these words seem to be true. And more people can swear to you today as yesterday to being the truth. How can so many People continue to say, they themselves were unsure of the truth, but now to this day testify to Christ?
Anyway here are the true words that ring true today.
Lets see what they say about addiction. Isn’t it true until you admit your addiction there is no hope for you to be cured. Funny how God said that like forever.
Proverbs He who conceals his sin does not prosper but whoever confesses and renounces them find mercy.
James, Therefore confess your sin so that you may be healed.
Here is the key to beating ANY addiction,
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you and you will be my witness in Jersusalem, In all Judea and Samaria and to the ENDS of the World.
Pretty powerful words huh? How can they be true after all this time. No actually how can anyone reject them not to be true is the question.
How do you explain millions in this world who do not even KNOW Christ, but will admit they have given into a higher power that healed them?
And that higher power Has to be Christ. Because anyone who has given into any other power except him with his love and mercy have come to destroy themselves and others.
Now I can quote you words given to us by God until the end of our life. But my question is, how can people to this day swear to you and others that it was ONLY by the help of God through his Holy Spirit that they learned to survive their tragedy’s?
I mean really. Because your average person makes no money for professing Christ. Look at us here, we get no money, no fame, no appreciation. But we don’t want that. How do you explain that?
Its totally possible Christianity is true, but it is also totally possible that Islam, or Hinduism, or Buddhism are true.
There are people who find comfort in every religion, thats why people follow them.
And there are a few who make good money haha. But remember, im not making money either, and im not even here to proselytize, just have good discussion.
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Porknpie
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Mlamg -
Great link. A successor of St. Peter through whom Christ built his Church.
So Mlamg, what would be an specific example of bias on faith and morals?
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PRmerger
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Your mistake is that the above is not CIRCULAR, but rather SPIRAL. And, as such, a spiral argument is absolutely logical.
For the argument above to be circular, you would have to start with a premise, and end with the same premise.
It would look something like this: The Bible is inspired. The Bible says that the Church is infallible. The Church says the Bible is inspired.
OR: The Church is infallible. The Church discerned the canon of Scripture. The Scriptures say that the Church is infallible.
That’s circular.
The spiral argument is this:
On the first level we argue to the reliability of the Bible insofar as it is history.
From that we conclude that an infallible Church was founded.
And then we take the word of that infallible Church that the Bible is inspired.
This is not a circular argument because the final conclusion (the Bible is inspired) is not simply a restatement of its initial finding (the Bible is historically reliable), and its initial finding (the Bible is historically reliable) is in no way based on the final conclusion (the Bible is inspired). What we have demonstrated is that without the existence of the Church, we could never know whether the Bible is inspired." source
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joe371
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Interesting. The 64000 dollar question is: where did all the energy come from, and the answer is - you believe it came from a Pagan God(s) and I believe it came from the Trinity, and I do have some actual proof that empirically supports my claim: Fatma, at least in my humble opinion. Even if you do not agree, this is still a great movie. The miracle, using CGI, is based on 20th century eyewitness testimony:
The 13th day
youtube.com/watch?v=vO0OeTnRO7Y
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Deltadeliquent
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Oh yes… There is a lot of fluffiness in Wicca. But I put Germanic paganism in the same category of type, just different in form.
Sorry if I offended, didn’t really mean to.
But my experience with Paganism leads me to my opinion. And I have found that most pagans grow up and move away. Maybe to Christianity, maybe not.
Christianity must seem just as silly to an unbeliever as your paganism does to me. And we both have a lot to be ashamed of in our religions.
It is just that you have a recreated religion based in history of a dead belief that never really had a formal system and we have a living religion based on an unbroken history of two thousand years with a formal system of belief, ritual and and morality based on the intellectual work of the most educated and finest minds of human history.
In your religion, you solicit the gods for their favour with sacrifices and spells and prayers. If you are silent, they are too.
In ours, we can’t get rid of Him. He goes after us. He loves us no matter how we respond, indeed even if we fail to respond at all.
And we have the advantage of living in a society for which there is lots of community and support for our belief.
It is very hard to keep a religion when you and a few friends are the only ones doing it.
Although I do understand that your type of paganism is pretty popular in Iceland.
In the end you can’t really argue a religion, you can only come to it through grace and intuition, mixed in with needs and the culture you live in.
I wish you peace.
Sorry if I offended, didn’t really mean to.
But my experience with Paganism leads me to my opinion. And I have found that most pagans grow up and move away. Maybe to Christianity, maybe not.
Christianity must seem just as silly to an unbeliever as your paganism does to me. And we both have a lot to be ashamed of in our religions.
It is just that you have a recreated religion based in history of a dead belief that never really had a formal system and we have a living religion based on an unbroken history of two thousand years with a formal system of belief, ritual and and morality based on the intellectual work of the most educated and finest minds of human history.
In your religion, you solicit the gods for their favour with sacrifices and spells and prayers. If you are silent, they are too.
In ours, we can’t get rid of Him. He goes after us. He loves us no matter how we respond, indeed even if we fail to respond at all.
And we have the advantage of living in a society for which there is lots of community and support for our belief.
It is very hard to keep a religion when you and a few friends are the only ones doing it.
Although I do understand that your type of paganism is pretty popular in Iceland.
In the end you can’t really argue a religion, you can only come to it through grace and intuition, mixed in with needs and the culture you live in.
I wish you peace.
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PRmerger
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Fair enough.
But you do see how you are being inconsistent, yes? You have a very low degree of skepticism for all things pagan and yet a very high degree of skepticism for all things Christian.
Would that you applied the same standard to both.
And, truly, would that you applied the same standard to all things historical. But you have already said that you apply a different standard for religious things. I guess that I understand that a bit. But the really judicious thing would be to apply the standard equally to all events that happened in the past.
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PRmerger
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This is not the Catholic position, Delta. The Catholic position is that our religion is eminently rational, and can indeed be argued for.
Fides quaerens intellectum is our mantra.
As is 1 Peter 3:15.
“Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect”
That’s called apologetics.
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Deltadeliquent
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I happily stand corrected. 
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SteveVH
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I beg to differ with you. Lourdes has hundreds of miracles that are verified by physicians outside of the Church. Miracles in the Catholic Church are scrutinized beyond belief before they are ever proclaimed an official miracle.
If I remember correctly, over 100,000 people witnessed the miracle at Fatima. There have been scientific studies done on the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe which cannot explain how the eyes reflect everyone in the room at the time Juan Diego showed the tilma (his cloak) with the image to the bishop. The image is not painted and there is no pigment in the fibers on which the image rests. It still hangs in Mexico City for all to see. There are countless other verifiable miracles, especially Eucharistic miracles.
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Skadi
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Yes I know Fatima, alwase got brought up in catholic school. two this my response is two fold.
- I am a soft, rather than hard, Polytheist. I believe there is a pantheistic, “Force”-like entity made up of all life and spiritual/magical energy. The various gods and goddesses of the worlds various religions are just masks, faces for the “Is-All”, through which it reveals universal truth in a culturally relative context.
- If the “Is-All” does appear in a culturally relative context than Fatima makes perfect sense in my opinion. Appearing as Horace to a 2nd century Celtic tribesman would not be ideal for conveying universal truth, because the Celtic tribesman is from a totally different culture than an Egyptian god and has no idea what he may be referring to. Mary, being a well known symbol of Christianity and especially Catholicism, would be very recognizable to a group of small Spanish children. I consider Fatima to be an appearance by a powerful spirit/entity in the shape of Mary, not Mary herself whom died 2000 years prior.
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Skadi
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I see the problem of our misunderstanding now, which stems from the problem of our religious dissimilarity.
As was just stated above, catholicism believes there can be a rational arrangement about religion. Im am of the other position,that in the end it is a matter of faith.
This is the cause of our disagreement. Catholicism is a VERY western style religion, it takes an almost scientific approach to religion. Over the past two thousand years generations of catholic theologians have debated and hammered out responses to nearly every question that can be posed. The positions of the catholic church are quantified in the catechism, and there are hundreds of books on how to properly respond to questions, both from within and without catholicism. While there are some things the catholic church claims simply cant be fully understood, such as the trinity, they have an official, well structured position on just about everything else, from scripture to morality to the nature of man. All these positions and the techniques of argument sharpened and perfected by two thousand years of endless debate. In my opinion a well learned Catholic is one of the most challenging debate opponents possible for a debate on theology, as they have a set plan in place for almost every line of argument.
This is catholicism. Rigid and scientific in its belief and masters of the art of theological debate.
On the other hand Paganism, and I believe this will go for most people across the pagan community regardless of tradition, are much much more lax. Pagan beliefs cover a wide variety even within the same traditions, and we are in the middle of our own religious renewal as paganism is reborn from the ashes. Even though the ancient pagans of Europe believed literally the local stories of their cultures, there is no governing body to dictate beliefs, and in fact we are in the mildly did not attempt to convert their neighbors, or engage in cross-religious debate. What is more important is meaning. There are many different ways to make a sacrifice, but it is the intent that matters. similarly the stories may vary from region to region but the message they convey remains the same. The story dosn’t need to be true, so long as it conveys the message, the universal truth. For a pagan, truth is much more illusive, mythical. Much like many eastern religion we are willing to accept a degree of mystery, uncertainty. While the western style of religion is tangible, alwase in a quest for the fullest understanding possible, where as we are willing to accept some mystery, some allegory, not knowing everything because maybe we cant.
So, to sum that all up, the burden of proof lies with Christianity, because it is the religion that makes the bold claims. You claim the Resurrection, and the miracles of the bible, and on those are built the other arguments and tenants of catholicism. Without those being true, the rest of your religion, as Catholics so often point out, would be hollow. Put the pagan stories can be myths, not necessarily actual events, because they are meant to convey universal truths like support of family, punishment for ones crime, courage, and other values that culture may value highly. Even if Fenrir was never literally bound with a silken chain and the world isnt literal in a giant tree, we no longer see our stories as some literal “this happened in this spot on this date” true. Our stories convey meaning, weather they are historical events is much less significant.
well, if you read that whole thing i applaud you.
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Skadi
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I would agree with some of what you say. I do know quite a bit about catholicism, If today I was to have the christian god appear before me and prove my beliefs wrong I would be catholic because your evangelical arguments beat all the protestant churches, and yourselves and the Orthodox do lead directly back to the historical person of Jesus. That said the reason I dont follow catholicism is I disagree with some key tenants of it, Most importantly on the nature of god but on other theological issues as well.
Of all the pagan religions too Id say Germanic and Slavic have the most staying power in terms of long term membership. Wicca is sadly a fad to quite a few people and it steadily has people like myself leave it to follow the various gods directly. The others, Celtic, Druidism, Grecco-Roman, all are quite romanticized, bringing in wuite a few people who just like the myth/culture. Germanic has a bit of this but the fact that it is a warrior religion discourages alot of fluffys, especially women, who make up a majority of the pagan/new age movement. As for Slavic that has absolutely no pop-culture draw in the west and I bet 99% of Americans cant name one Slavic deity. But that’s kind of insignificant because the Slav pagans are almost exclusive to the old Soviet Union. A sign of the difference though between Germanic/Slavic paganism and the rest of Neopaganism and New age is that gender gap. We are probably the only group in all of new agey type religion that has a significant male majority, and while I dont mean anything sexist in my experience most of the fuffys in paganism are 15 year old girls who wana learn about thier inner goddess, put flowers in their hair, and do magic to get the cute guy at school. Or male hatting goth/emo girls. Either way they are a lot less drawn to a religion that revolves in many ways around violence like Germanic paganism is. Thats why I think Germanic is set to be the most stable in terms of growth in the future,
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joe371
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So you believe that the powerful spirit posing as Mary is lying to the little children? After all the supposed unknown spirit revealed herself as the blessed virgin Mary, the queen of the Most Holy Rosary?
Remember, Mary told the children that they should always tell the truth, no matter what, and yet here she is supposedly lying about who she is, if you are right, that is. Nah…Let’s assume you are correct for a moment. Are you OK with powerful spirit that lies and misleads?
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