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Randy_Carson
Guest
Okay.
So, just to be clear, in your pantheon of gods, there are those who are considered evil and who seek the destruction of men?
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So, just to be clear, in your pantheon of gods, there are those who are considered evil and who seek the destruction of men?
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Lokadottir
Guest
Except that almost definitely wouldn’t work. Taking a risk such as Prometheus did is in the spirit of sacrifice. People who hid Jews during WWII didn’t intend to get caught but it was a true sacrifice (in that it is a selfless risking ones life and accepting that risk for the sake of another). To further the metaphor, going to Hitler and offering yourself in place of a Jew would just get both of you killed. (Side not I’m NOT comparing Zeus to Hitler)
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Lokadottir
Guest
You “seek the destruction” of the grass on the lawn when you mow it. I pass no judgement on “evil” ESPECIALLY with deities. Evil is a huge word that I avoid.There are however most certainly things that will trod on you for their means as humans kill many things to further themselves. But there are things that you just might not be putting you first. (This is more new age-y than most of my beliefs)
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Randy_Carson
Guest
So, you’re not comfortable labeling some gods as “good” and others as “bad”?
Or is it that there simply aren’t any “bad” gods?
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Contarini
Guest
And with all due respect, the avoidance of “huge words” is a characteristic of “post-modern” society and the postmodern phenomenon of neo-paganism/heathenism. I recognize that this avoidance of “huge words” is a reaction to the way these “huge words” have been abused by Christians and others, and also that it seems very humble. But I think it’s a retreat from engagement with truth and from the full use of the intellect.
If we are going to use the word “evil,” I would hope that we’d be especially ready to use it about deities–meaning by “deities” “beings of superhuman power and intelligence.” The more powerful a being is, the more he/she/it needs to be held to moral account. One reason people are so “scunnered” by the word “evil” is that Christians have so often used it to crush those who are already broken, when the main use of the word is to hold the powers and principalities accountable and free us from the worship of power.
Edwin
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Lokadottir
Guest
Maybe not “good for us” but they are very necessary.
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Lokadottir
Guest
Actually I think you avoid truth by polarizing everything into good or evil. An avoidance of the in between requires less consideration.
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Kallisto
Guest
Correct. Christianity did not create the concept of a god as savior and, as such, its specific definition is not the yardstick by which other religions or deities should be measured. Different religions are not obligated to conform to the dictates and beliefs of one another. Part of the problem with this thread is that sometimes other religions are approached with the expectation to defend themselves per the definitions and terms established by Christianity but that negates discussion and makes no more sense than expecting Christians to defend Christianity per the definitions and terms of another religion. Religions are not beholden to one another and cannot be objectively discussed when one party expects the other to conform to it.
There were many savior gods long before the Christian one. Such gods in Hellenism for example, bear the epithet of “Soter” (Savior), gods who save men in one manner or another. There is the “Messiah” in Judiasm, the Savior for whom they still wait. Since other religions don’t adhere to the notion of “original sin” there is no need to redeem man from it. There are a multitude of gods in various pantheons who have sacrificed in one way or another for humanity.
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Contarini
Guest
Pure good is very rare in this world (morally speaking, Catholics believe it existed, since the Fall, in only Jesus and the Virgin Mary among human beings), and pure evil is non-existent and a contradiction in terms. You are caricaturing the Christian position.
To borrow a metaphor from Chesterton, I’m arguing that if you stop believing in the North and South Poles you will lose your way, and you’re accusing me of believing that only the North and South Poles exist!
Terms like “good” and “evil” are directional terms. “Good” refers most fully only to God, and refers to other things as they approach God–specifically, as they fulfill the natures God gave them. “Evil” refers to the extent to which a thing falls short of the nature God gave it, and hence of participation in the ultimate goodness called God.
That does not mean that everything actually existing in the world can be polarized into “good” and “evil.”
I repeat: what do you call rape and genocide if not evil? Are you as a pagan, called to love those who commit such acts?
Edwin
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Lokadottir
Guest
Can all the pagans here do this for one hour just to watch the fireworks. (Sorry my Lokean is showing
)
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Lokadottir
Guest
Well, you are in fact a Christian who is. You make an excellent argument. Allow me to amend my view I prefer right and wrong for directions, because good and evil tend to evoke the poles. And whats more they are used by people in this sense so I don’t use them. This is similar to why people no longer use the work “***” solely to refer to a donkey because the first meanings people think of are very different. I realize this isn’t an exact comparison.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Christians have been explaining their beliefs to people of all cultures and languages for 2,000 years.
We’ve done okay so far.
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Kallisto
Guest
Christians explaining their religion is not the same as expecting other religions to conform to their beliefs. What holds true in one religion is largely irrelevant as to what is held as truth in another.
Or are you using “explaining” as code for “denouncing” or “vilifying” or “suppressing” other religions?
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Contarini
Guest
Not exact, but I take your meaning. Certainly many Christians tend toward Manicheanism in practice. For instance, on this forum some time ago (or maybe it was another Catholic forum) someone said that they liked Wizard of Oz because it had such a clear contrast between good and evil (this was in contrast to Harry Potter,). This is heretical nonsense, as far as I can see.
I guess my problem with your position comes down to this: when I read ancient pagan texts, they seem to me to have very clear-cut moral judgments. Yes, these judgments are in a sense more culturally relative than those of Christianity–they have to do with how well one fulfills certain social roles or upholds the honor of one’s family or society, or whatever. But the judgments are actually quite harsh and final on the people in question. Ancient pagan texts, whether Greco-Roman or Germanic (sticking to the Western tradition, which I know best and which has influenced our culture the most), seem quite ready to write some people off as just being inferior, whether morally or otherwise. On the whole, weakness and ignorance are seen as evil (this is often praised by modern people by putting it the other way round–that paganism speaks of weakness and ignorance rather than calling actions or people evil–but to my mind this is actually quite the opposite of humane or compassionate). I don’t want to caricature ancient paganism, but it’s certainly true, for instance, that both Greco-Roman and Germanic cultures widely practiced infanticide.
Christianity has distinguished itself from the beginning by the claim that all human life is sacred, and that moral failure is not a matter of intrinsic defect but of the will, which can be redeemed. The Christian belief in original sin is an easy target for criticism, and many forms of it are rightly criticized. But as far as I can see, the alternative to saying that everyone is a sinner is to say that some people are just intrinsically inferior–that they “don’t make the cut” in terms of full humanity. This is what orthodox Christianity has refused to say.
Admittedly, “orthodox Christianity” is somewhat of an ideal type here. In practice Christians have tended to recombine the apocalyptic moral judgments of our own faith with cultural attitudes about defective people (for instance, Hildegard of Bingen, recently declared a Doctor of the Church, thought that people conceived under certain kinds of circumstances, including but not limited to people conceived out of wedlock, were destined to have bad moral character). And this has had horrific, demonic results. I don’t want to whitewash Christianity or oversimplify the record or caricature paganism (in fact I find both Greco-Roman and Germano-Celtic paganism immensely attractive in a number of ways). But when all the nuances and qualifications have been made, it still seems to me that Christianity holds out for an understanding of forgiveness and universal love that is not to be found in the ancient pagan sources (Stoics come closest, in the Western tradition, but even they don’t seem to me to hold out much hope for the redemption of the wicked).
Thanks for the good discussion. Christians are horribly smug most of the time, and I’m sure that applies to me as well. We need folks like you to keep us honest.
Edwin
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Lokadottir
Guest
You made my day!
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freeRadical
Guest
A lot of people find the concept of the Trinity very confusing and rightfully so because it is confusing. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not equal to God, they are God. If you are truly interested in learning about the concept of the Trinity, there are numerous tracts on that subject on this website. I’m sure someone much more knowledgeable then me could find them and post them for you.
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Lokadottir
Guest
But I could make an argument similar to that which states Pagan Gods MUST be demons.
For example:
Jesus and the Holy Spirit aren’t REALLY God! They are servants of Satan who have led Jews astray!!!
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freeRadical
Guest
Jesus and the Holy Spirit aren’t separate from God so how could they do something that is contrary to God?
If Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God then that means, by your argument, that God is a servant of Satan that led the Jews astray. Their own God led them astray?
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Credo_in_Deum
Guest
Thank you for your response. I guess what I’m looking for is evidence of a Pagan god who come down to earth for the sole purpose of sacrificing him/herself for mankind and not one who took a risk which ended up in a sacrifice. I’m looking for a god that came down and said “I come to give my life, that they (mankind) maybe one with us!” Has there been such a pagan god?
Also what are the qualifications for a being to be considered a god in Paganism? I ask because if Prometheus had to resort to theft in order to obtain the fire, how can he be considered god? In Paganism do beings not have to be perfect in order to be gods?
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Uh…no…I mean explaining what we believe to others who do not know.
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