Ask a Pentecostal

[4Squarebaby]

Most of the time people who speak in tongues are not stopping the service and demanding attention. They are usually just praying or praising as they would do in English. So, for Pentecostals it is just not an issue.
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And/or the worship leader and or pastor exhorts or releases the congregation as a body in to that response. In different local churches it may be more or less likely with it happening more in some Pentecostal organizations today then in others.

 

[andrewstx]

Im not sure I understand your question. As I stated, Im in a pentecostal program and this is emphasized on often and encouraged. In terms of the scripture verse, this is kind of what I was gearing towards.

I agree and disagree at the same time. I do think that tongues are the least of the gifts of the Spirit and have read that. I don’t agree that tongues and the rest of the gifts just went away when the NT was completed at all.

That is the position of the fundamentalist sect I converted from, “the churches of Christ”. They all but worship the NT as an idol. They think that when the NT was completed the Holy Spirit withdrew. And In think that is very wrong.

They are so radical with the worship of the NT that everything not expressly commanded in it is automatically forbidden even things as innocent as musical instruments and flowers and candles are forbidden in the “buildings”. The word church reffering to a place of worship is forbidden as well!

 

[RaiseMeUp]

I agree and disagree at the same time. I do think that tongues are the least of the gifts of the Spirit and have read that. I don’t agree that tongues and the rest of the gifts just went away when the NT was completed at all.

That is the position of the fundamentalist sect I converted from, “the churches of Christ”. They all but worship the NT as an idol. They think that when the NT was completed the Holy Spirit withdrew. And In think that is very wrong.

They are so radical with the worship of the NT that everything not expressly commanded in it is automatically forbidden even things as innocent as musical instruments and flowers and candles are forbidden in the “buildings”. The word church referring to a place of worship is forbidden as well!

Maybe that chart wasn’t a good representation. I don’t think that tongues have completely ceased either. However it just seems too easy and far too common. Even to the point of people requesting the pastor to help them speak in tongues. So much emphasis on it that people want to “learn” how to speak tongues to prove to themselves the Spirit is with them.

 

[GaryTaylor]

However, it just seems too easy and far too common. Even to the point of people requesting the pastor to help them speak in tongues. So much emphasis on it that people want to “learn” how

I agree, seems to be a type of pressure.

 

[ltwin]

I agree, seems to be a type of pressure.

Some Pentecostals may apply high pressure tactics. Though, from what I’ve experienced and what I have read from scholars of the movement, many if not most Pentecostal churches are moving away from heavy emphasis on tongues. They’ve been going in this direction since at least the 1960s.

They still believe in it and practice it, but the growing consensus is that post-war Pentecostalism developed a very unhealthy attitude toward speaking in tongues. This attitude treated the initial evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit as little more than a checkmark on a list. People were urged to tarry at the altars for the baptism in the Holy Spirit, but they were never taught the purpose of Spirit baptism. A whole generation of Pentecostals grew up speaking in tongues but never really understanding the larger purpose of Spirit empowerment.

As a consequence, many Pentecostal churches have reacted against this “checkmark” mentality and would rather just deconstruct the traditional mindset altogether that has developed around tongues and the infilling of the Holy Spirit.

 

[grannymh]

Some Pentecostals may apply high pressure tactics. Though, from what I’ve experienced and what I have read from scholars of the movement, many if not most Pentecostal churches are moving away from heavy emphasis on tongues. They’ve been going in this direction since at least the 1960s.

Do Pentecostals pray in tongues privately in their home or in their car or out walking – anyplace where there are not people? Do they pray silently in tongues?

 

[siamus2k13]

Some Pentecostals may apply high pressure tactics. Though, from what I’ve experienced and what I have read from scholars of the movement, many if not most Pentecostal churches are moving away from heavy emphasis on tongues. They’ve been going in this direction since at least the 1960s.

They still believe in it and practice it, but the growing consensus is that post-war Pentecostalism developed a very unhealthy attitude toward speaking in tongues. This attitude treated the initial evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit as little more than a checkmark on a list. People were urged to tarry at the altars for the baptism in the Holy Spirit, but they were never taught the purpose of Spirit baptism. A whole generation of Pentecostals grew up speaking in tongues but never really understanding the larger purpose of Spirit empowerment.

As a consequence, many Pentecostal churches have reacted against this “checkmark” mentality and would rather just deconstruct the traditional mindset altogether that has developed around tongues and the infilling of the Holy Spirit.

I think the comment about using high pressure tactics, has some validity to it, but there is a good reason for it.

Salvation is on their minds. They want people to get saved.

Nothing wrong with that.

It “tastes awful, but it works”…

. . . . . . . . . . . . .

Oh, and the whole speaking in tongues thing. I don’t think you can call speaking in tongues a practice.

Know why?

A practice, is something that you do out of habit or by your own will power. The actual phenomenon, is truly not the person deciding to do it.

 

[ltwin]

Oh, and the whole speaking in tongues thing. I don’t think you can call speaking in tongues a practice.

Know why?

A practice, is something that you do out of habit or by your own will power. The actual phenomenon, is truly not the person deciding to do it.

Praying in tongues is simply praying in the spirit. Praying is a spiritual discipline.

Your comment has peaked my interest though. Do you really have no control over when you speak in tongues? It just comes and goes without you having any say over it?

To me, that’s unbiblical. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14:32 that “the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets.” He said this in the context of discussing the gifts of tongues, interpretation, and prophecy being vocalized in the public gathering. After saying this, he goes on to say, “For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.”

Right before all of this, Paul tells the Corinthians, “If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God” (1 Corinthians 14:27-28).

So, I’ll ask you to clarify. Do you have control over when you speak in tongues or not?

 

[Methos]

Not really sure what this means. People who speak in tongues do not know what they are saying. When I speak or pray in tongues, I never understand it. Only those with the gift of interpretation can understand tongues, and this really only applies to “messages in tongues” not to simple prayer or praise.

Acts 2:4-11 says otherwise. If I were to come to you and say “говорите мне о Евангелии” (phonetically: govorite mne o Yevangelii), would you or anyone else be able to respond right then and there? If no, why not? A person is concerned about his salvation, why would the line to God suddenly be a busy signal? If yes, can you tell us about it (it can be about another language)?

 

[ltwin]

Acts 2:4-11 says otherwise.

No, it does not. All Scripture is inspired by God, we agree? Therefore, God cannot contradict himself. In 1 Corinthians 14, we have an extensive description of how tongues should and should not function within the church. Here is how Paul defines speaking in tongues (1 Cor. 14:2):

For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.
​

As you can see, my statement agrees with Paul’s. People who speak in tongues are not understood by anyone, including themselves. Their communication is not directed to men, but “to God.”

But, you might say, surely they understand what they themselves are speaking? Once again, I align my views with that presented in Scripture. Paul says (1 Cor. 14:13-14):

Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful.
​

In verse 13, Paul tells us that the one who speaks in tongues should pray for interpretation. By this, Paul does not mean a learned, studied interpretation. He means a supernatural ability to understand the “mysteries in the Spirit” discussed at the beginning of the chapter. This supernatural ability to interpret is a spiritual gift (charism) called “the gift of interpretation.” This gift is listed among the charismata in 1 Corinthians 12:10 right along with tongues, prophecy and the working of miracles.

In verse 14, Paul gives us the reason why the speaker in tongues should pray for interpretation. This is because, “if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful.” Obviously, this means that one is praying with their spirit rather than with their mind (intellect). The sounds that one hears, even though spoken by oneself, cannot be understood because they are intellectually meaningless.

If I were to come to you and say “говорите мне о Евангелии” (phonetically: govorite mne o Yevangelii), would you or anyone else be able to respond right then and there? If no, why not? A person is concerned about his salvation, why would the line to God suddenly be a busy signal? If yes, can you tell us about it (it can be about another language)?

Why should I be able to understand that? As I’ve pointed out above, Paul is quite clear that speaking in tongues need not be the speaking of an actual foreign language but of speaking “mysteries in the Spirit” that no one understands but God.

Pentecostals do not seek to isolate one part of Scripture from another. We like to consider the “whole counsel of God.” When it comes to tongues, we study both Acts and 1 Corinthians and believe that rather than disregard one or both of these biblical texts, we will follow and teach both of them. The gift of tongues cannot be reduced to pure “missionary tongues” nor can they only be considered “ecstatic language.” The gift of tongues cannot be reduced to either of those.

 

[grannymh]

Praying in tongues is simply praying in the spirit. Praying is a spiritual discipline.

Your comment has peaked my interest though. Do you really have no control over when you speak in tongues? It just comes and goes without you having any say over it?

To me, that’s unbiblical. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14:32 that “the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets.” He said this in the context of discussing the gifts of tongues, interpretation, and prophecy being vocalized in the public gathering. After saying this, he goes on to say, “For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.”

Right before all of this, Paul tells the Corinthians, “If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God” (1 Corinthians 14:27-28).

So, I’ll ask you to clarify. Do you have control over when you speak in tongues or not?

One of the first things, one learns about Tongues in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, is that a person has total control over when she or he starts praying and when she or he stops praying. The Holy Spirit Tongues is a gift one freely and deliberately yields to.

 

[Methos]

Why should I be able to understand that? As I’ve pointed out above, Paul is quite clear that speaking in tongues need not be the speaking of an actual foreign language but of speaking “mysteries in the Spirit” that no one understands but God.

Pentecostals do not seek to isolate one part of Scripture from another. We like to consider the “whole counsel of God.” When it comes to tongues, we study both Acts and 1 Corinthians and believe that rather than disregard one or both of these biblical texts, we will follow and teach both of them. The gift of tongues cannot be reduced to pure “missionary tongues” nor can they only be considered “ecstatic language.” The gift of tongues cannot be reduced to either of those.

First, it’s Russian and translates as “Tell me about the Gospel.” Yes, Paul said it need not, but it could. So, why aren’t there few, if any, instance of someone speaking a language unknown to them or “missionary tongue” as you call them? A person giving you that request is an opportunity to share. I just get the impression that, if the gift of tongues is so commonplace, you’d think it could be used in that instance. Also, if both part of the gift are taught, why is so much emphasis placed on the “ecstatic language”?

Also, how you do know when the gift of interpretation is genuine and not “pressured” as well or counterfeited? I have never witnessed either of them, but a friend has. In that instance, the person was speaking a language known to a companion of my friend. Whereas someone else did claim that the speaker was praising God (I don’t know if that person claimed the gift of interpretation), it was far from it. If I remember correctly, it had to do with a swimming pool.

I can respond to only part of your post as it’s somewhat late (I’m just typing off the top of my head) and my internet is slow for some reason on my end. I apologize if my post and questions are somewhat unclear.

 

[Reuben_J]

Speaking in tongue, praying/singing in tongue is a gift of the Holy Spirit. As gift, it is just that – a gift. Therefore it is up to the recipient to exercise it in a manner he/she wants to. In other word, it should be under one’s control when to say it and when to stop. Thus it is exercised in an orderly manner in an appropriate moment where it would not cause chaos and confusion.

It should not be beyond our control that we are unable to stop it. If that is the case, then it is more like a trance. Gift of tongue is not a trance. That is more like being possessed and the only One who possesses us is the Devil. When it happens in that manner it will cause distraction to the congregation. Similarly manifestation. When it happens, then someone should restraint that person or brings him/her to another room to be ministered to so that the whole congregation would be able to continue on with the worship and not be distracted.

Remember, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of order and not of confusion.

 

[grannymh]

Also, how you do know when the gift of interpretation is genuine and not “pressured” as well or counterfeited? I have never witnessed either of them, but a friend has. In that instance, the person was speaking a language known to a companion of my friend. Whereas someone else did claim that the speaker was praising God (I don’t know if that person claimed the gift of interpretation), it was far from it. If I remember correctly, it had to do with a swimming pool.

Please note that I have no way of knowing about this individual, particular story involving a swimming pool. I assume that the story is accurate.

On the other hand.

This reminds me of a kind of “teaching story” which is helpful in discerning if mysterious utterances are being interpreted correctly. I believe that discernment is the issue with this question in post 461. “Also, how you do know when the gift of interpretation is genuine and not “pressured” as well or counterfeited?”

Discernment of God’s Truth in an interpretation is crucial – Truth as in found in the known word of God in Holy Scripture. This “teaching story” is about a group, any group, which liked to interpret mysterious utterances as being instructions from the supernatural world.

One day, an outsider asked a group member: “How do you know that these utterances are messages from God?”

The group member answered: “That is simple. There is an interpreter.”

The outsider accepted that answer until one day, a second question came to his mind. So he asked the group member: “How do you know that the interpreter is correctly interpreting God Who is giving divine truths through the mysterious utterances of a group member?”

The group member answered: “That is simple. God’s messages tell us how to get to heaven. When an interpreter interprets mysterious utterances as being a direct, no nonsense command of God to build an Olympic size swimming pool, financed solely by the congregation, in our pastor’s backyard, because that is the perfect way to get to heaven – we know something is wrong. We know that we need to follow Jesus because He said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life in the Gospel of John, Chapter 14, verse 6. There is nothing about Olympic swimming pools in Scripture.”

What this simple “teaching story” points out is that safeguards, such as mature discernment, is part of the charismatic picture. A charismatic gathering is not meant to be a free-for-all event. Charismatics do need to pay attention to St. Paul’s teachings on community.

 

[andrewstx]

Some Pentecostals may apply high pressure tactics. Though, from what I’ve experienced and what I have read from scholars of the movement, many if not most Pentecostal churches are moving away from heavy emphasis on tongues. They’ve been going in this direction since at least the 1960s.

They still believe in it and practice it, but the growing consensus is that post-war Pentecostalism developed a very unhealthy attitude toward speaking in tongues. This attitude treated the initial evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit as little more than a checkmark on a list. People were urged to tarry at the altars for the baptism in the Holy Spirit, but they were never taught the purpose of Spirit baptism. A whole generation of Pentecostals grew up speaking in tongues but never really understanding the larger purpose of Spirit empowerment.

As a consequence, many Pentecostal churches have reacted against this “checkmark” mentality and would rather just deconstruct the traditional mindset altogether that has developed around tongues and the infilling of the Holy Spirit.

That was almost identical to me during a 'Life in the Spirit" seminar. We left the church proper and went into a small room in the school. There we were taken individually and the Monks from the Pecos NM prayed over us and laid hands on of for the HS baptism, and then immediately they prayed over us for the gift of toungues. They even coached us on how to speak toungues. S0rry but I felt and still feel a fakeness about the toungues because of the understanding that toungues must follow every person who had the gift of the Spirit.

It continued for a time, prayer meetings and Pentecostal Masses. But in a few years and with a different Pastor it was all quietly forgotten.

 

[grannymh]

That was almost identical to me during a 'Life in the Spirit" seminar. We left the church proper and went into a small room in the school. There we were taken individually and the Monks from the Pecos NM prayed over us and laid hands on of for the HS baptism, and then immediately they prayed over us for the gift of toungues. They even coached us on how to speak toungues. S0rry but I felt and still feel a fakeness about the toungues because of the understanding that toungues must follow every person who had the gift of the Spirit.

It continued for a time, prayer meetings and Pentecostal Masses. But in a few years and with a different Pastor it was all quietly forgotten.

Please accept my sincere apology for the serious errors which happened to you.

 

[andrewstx]

Please accept my sincere apology for the serious errors which happened to you.

Thank you very much Granny. You can’t be my Granny since I am 58 years old.

 

[ltwin]

First, it’s Russian and translates as “Tell me about the Gospel.” Yes, Paul said it need not, but it could. So, why aren’t there few, if any, instance of someone speaking a language unknown to them or “missionary tongue” as you call them?

Perhaps its because few people, at least in the American church, are in situations when they need to witness in a miraculous language. I have no idea, but it is interesting to note that when Paul writes to the Corinthian church there is no indication that people were speaking in known foreign languages. We only hear of them praying in the spirit, singing in the spirit, and publicly vocalizing some form of teaching, revelation, or prophecy through tongues which “no one understands” (the implication being that no foreigner was hearing them speak in their own language). Therefore, I may surmise that these are two sides to the same gift (that gift being appropriately called “various kinds of tongues” in 1 Cor. 12) that serve different purposes. One is more miraculous and extraordinary and geared toward more extraordinary situations and one is more ordinary and geared toward more ordinary and personal/congregational contexts.

A person giving you that request is an opportunity to share. I just get the impression that, if the gift of tongues is so commonplace, you’d think it could be used in that instance. Also, if both part of the gift are taught, why is so much emphasis placed on the “ecstatic language”?

First, we need to define how tongues are “taught.” We are taught what the word says about tongues, but we cannot be taught how to “speak” the “language” of “tongues” like we can be taught how to speak the English language. It is not something that can be learned like that because it is supernatural. A spiritual gift cannot be learned; it must be imparted by the Giver of Gifts. When those in the upper room were filled with the Spirit, they “began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.”

While the “spirits of prophets are subject to prophets,” the content of prophecy (or any other vocal gift) must be “as the Spirit gave them utterance” to be legitimate. If something is being prayed or spoken that is not given by the Holy Spirit then a person is working off a human or demonic effort. In other words, the person is either faking or is demon possessed.

Also, how you do know when the gift of interpretation is genuine and not “pressured” as well or counterfeited? I have never witnessed either of them, but a friend has. In that instance, the person was speaking a language known to a companion of my friend. Whereas someone else did claim that the speaker was praising God (I don’t know if that person claimed the gift of interpretation), it was far from it. If I remember correctly, it had to do with a swimming pool.

First, any interpretation would need to be tested by Scripture. Glossolalic prophecy or utterance that explicitly violates Scripture would be rejected, and the person giving the interpretation would be prayed for. In all my years in a Pentecostal church, this has never happened. Any prophecy or utterance that is neither explicitly affirmed or contradicted by Scripture would be placed under heightened scrutiny. It would not be outright rejected but neither would it be outright embraced. I’ve never heard a message in tongues that I wasn’t completely confident lined up with Scripture exactly, but I"m not saying that there couldn’t be some questionable messages occasionally given.

Second, I know the people who give messages and interpretations in tongues in my church. We don’t typically have strangers give public utterance. There is a group of people in our church who are routinely used in giving public messages and interpretations in tongues. They include my grandpa and an aunt. My uncle has occasionally given a message in tongues. I believe I heard my father, an ordained minister (but never a pastor), give an interpretation once.

Anyway, in the context of a local church, you know the people giving gifted utterance in the local church. You know if they are grounded in the word and if their lives are bearing fruit. You know that these are long time Christians, they’re long time members of this particular church, some of them are in official leadership roles, and that they themselves know that they are under no pressure to “perform” a religious show.

Pentecostal leaders commonly advise churches that newcomers should be discouraged from using the gift of tongues in public worship. This is because the congregation does not yet know the newcomer, and the newcomer does not yet know who in the congregation has the gift of interpretation. It is the responsibility of the one who gives a message in tongues to know that someone else in the congregation has the gift of interpretation if they themselves do not.

 

[Reuben_J]

For a community that does not have the gift of speaking in tongue and interpretation, perhaps the leaders there would not know how to deal with it when it happens and so that’s the reason probably such gift does not thrive.

A more common gift would be prophecy. Yet there is a time for this and that the prophet needs to check with a body of discerners before proclaiming it. Certainly there is no pressure here for anybody to do anything, on both sides. A message from God will upbuild, edify. It does not if it is merely from human spirit and which is why many a worship gathering can be eventually ineffective and without power. The Evil spirit would simply destroy the group.

This afternoon a very senior sister who was with us for a long time came up for discernment. She sensed that during the worship she was inspired by the Sunday Gospel reading (Lk 12:49-53) that as Jesus brought fire to the earth, would she still be with the Lord even for the time she had to go through a difficult phase of her life.

I asked her, “What is the message from the Lord?”
She said, “It is just my reflection. So do I go up now?”
I said, “I think it is a message for you. No, you don’t have to.”

After the gathering, I told her that she could go up and shared a personal testimony during the sharing time. She was opened about this and it did not ‘hurt’ her that she was not allowed to prophesize.

It is not easy to control a proper worship but if people are mature enough we can all grow together in the Lord. The principle of being docile to the Holy Spirit in very important and also of being teachable and humble.

 

[Misplaced_Book]

Do you like Bagels?