Ask a Pentecostal

[ltwin]

Do you believe in the Holy Trinty?

Yes, as defined by the historic creeds of the undivided church without reservation.

If so, then by what authority do you decide that your Pentecastal church’s beliefs are correct over “Oneness Pentecostal” congregations? Because it “feels right” to you or what?

Not because of feelings. Our feelings must be placed in subjection to God’s written word, Holy Scripture. This is the measuring rod of every matter of faith, worship, and life.

Modalism or Sabellianism (the heresy that Oneness Pentecostals believe) is inconsistent with what we know about the relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If Modalism were true, it would make Christ a liar or a really nasty person for making us think he was praying to a Father in heaven when in reality he was not.

The mystery of the Trinity is faithful to what is implicit in Scripture. Trinitarian Pentecostals therefore join with the witness of the historic church as stated in the Ecumenical Creeds.

Also, St. Paul said that all things are to be done in an orderly manner, and that if there is no one to interpret tongues, then the people should remain quite so that a visitor would not experience total confusion as to what is going on. What is your response to that? Thanks, because I really want to know what your answers are.

The way vocal gifts are experienced within a Pentecostal church will not be the same everywhere. In some Pentecostal churches, you will never hear speaking in tongues in a public assembly. In other Pentecostal churches, you will only hear it when a message is given. In others, you will hear it a lot as people worship God in tongues.

My own view on this matter is that context is important. Throughout 1 Corinthians, Paul is facing an inter-church conflict between a group of people (the strong) that were using their influence and power over another group of people in the congregation (the weak) in ungodly ways. In 1 Cor. 14, we find that the Strong had the habit of getting up in the assembly and speaking in tongues without interpretation but in a manner and at a volume that demanded that the entire church stop what they were doing and listen to their uninterpreted tongues. This was an act of spiritual arrogance and showing off. Paul therefore says that if you stand up to give a message in tongues, an interpretation must follow.

In this case, Paul is speaking to people who were demanding the attention of the entire church. He was not speaking to people were simply praying, praising, or singing to God at a volume that did not rise above the rest of the congregation.

 

[Nicea325]

Let me start off by saying that there are things I appreciate about the Catholic Church. I do like the fact that Catholics have history and they know who they are. Pentecostals don’t appreciate their own history enough. Too much we focus on the “new thing” God is doing in our lives and in the church and not enough looking back to give God thanks for what he has done in history. I also appreciate that the Catholic Church has never fallen into the trap of believing in cessationism

That said the biggest problems are beliefs that don’t appear to be warranted in scripture: Apostolic Succession, the pope’s unique role, Mariology, prayers to the saints, purgatory. It’s claim that other churches are simply “ecclesial communities” and somehow less than the Catholic Church is something that troubles me as well.

Another thing I’m not comfortable with is something that I perceive from my very limited interaction with the Catholic Church (mainly discussions on this forum). This is the lack of correlation between the rites of Christian initiation and the experience of Christian conversion. From my Pentecostal heritage, the performance of any sacerdotal or ecclesiastical rites is useless unless their is a Christian experience that accompanies it.

I also believe that Catholic liturgical worship is too routinized and the authority structure is too top heavy. But that has more to do with my own Pentecostal background than it does with whether the Catholic Church is “correct” in all its beliefs.

Not to start an argument, but where does God teach everything must be warranted from Scripture? Where does Scripture teach: It must be warranted from the Bible?

Case in point, where does Scripture teach people about wedding rings and have a reception afterwards? Unless your particular faith does not marry couples or use wedding rings?

 

[ltwin]

Since ALL Pentecostals, I think, believe in the Holy Spirit as well as Jesus, what exactly do non-Trinitarian Oneness Pentecostals believe about G-d? In particular, what does the term “Oneness” refer to?

Oneness Pentecostals believe in Modalism or Sabellianism (an ancient name for the same heresy). In essence, they believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are not persons of a Trinity but manifestations, modes, or aspects of one God, whose name is Jesus Christ. All of the Godhead is dwells within Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the Father, Jesus is the Son, and Jesus is the Holy Spirit.

At least that is how I understand it. Once again, I am not Oneness, so I am going off of what I’ve read and heard.

 

[ltwin]

Pardon the ignorance,but is it true certain Pentecostal communities only baptize in the name of Jesus?

God Bless

That would be the Oneness Pentecostals. Because they believe that the Godhead dwells fully in Jesus Christ, they recognize only one Name to baptize in. Therefore, they look to the baptismal formula found in Acts 2:38 rather than that found in Matthew 28:19.

Trinitarian Pentecostals will baptize “In the Name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.”

 

[robwar]

Hi itwin,
I am wondering which pentacostal church do you currently attend? Is it AOG or some independent type? I’m glad to read that you have moved away from Name it/claim it/wealth/health type. What has made you move away or reject Kenneth Hagin word of faith? I have always thought your posts are very well written and intelligent. thanks for starting this thread.

 

[ltwin]

You mentioned something about speaking in tongues, can you speak in tongues?

Yes. I pray and sing in tongues often. I do it a lot in the shower and while driving. I put on some Hillsong music and just start praying to God and it can be quite a journey in prayer.

How do you know that they are really led by the Holy Spirit and not just gibberish?

I have faith in God’s promises. I received my prayer language at the time that I asked God to fill me with His Spirit. He did, and I began to pray in tongues. I believe in Christ’s promise of Luke 11:

“What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

I also believe what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14:

“For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.”

So, I have no reason that when I asked God years ago to fill me with His Holy Spirit so that I might be consecrated and empowered to fulfill His will and His purpose, plan, and destiny in my life that He would have given me a meaningless or, even worse, allowed a demonic gift into my life.

I also know that at times I have been burdened to pray. I did not know what to pray for, so I would pray in the Spirit. For example, just a couple days I was making a 3 hour drive and was burdened to pray in the Spirit. So I began and I felt the anointing and unction so strong while I prayed. I had no idea why I felt such an urgency to pray until I began to see a whole lot of police and ambulance lights ahead of me on the road. I passed right by what appeared to be a very bad car wreck.

 

[Filioque]

How does the average Pentecostal deal with the supposed messages and prophecies given by someone who speaks in tounges? Are they authentic messages from God and as binding as the Sacred Scriputes? If they are inspired by God, would one not have to accept them as such? Or is God just suggesting things to the community which they can accept or reject? Who determines such, the individual, the congregation, the Pastor?

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

There are those types of Pentecostals around. My great aunt is like that. She wears dress, and she says that she would never be caught dead in a movie theater.

LOL. My Grandmother is a Pentecostal. Her Mother was also a Pentecostal. My Grandma told me a story (many times) That her Mother use to tell her, when she was a little girl, that if God caught her in a movie theater when he came back, he would leave her behind. Something along those lines anyway. I’m assuming she was talking about the rapture. They must have been very hard-core back in the day. My Grandma does wear pants and makeup though. And has dismissed the theater thing as “The old ways” and sees nothing wrong with going to the theater. She’s 81

I will think of a question to ask you later.

 

[ltwin]

Not to start an argument, but where does God teach everything must be warranted from Scripture? Where does Scripture teach: It must be warranted from the Bible?

The Bible does not teach this. Yet, all men have failed. All men have the potential to be deceived and fall into error. Scripture, however, will never lead astray. It is God breathed, profitable for teaching and instructing, and it is a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path. There is nothing better that the church possesses than the Holy Scripture to guide its life and faith.

Case in point, where does Scripture teach people about wedding rings and have a reception afterwards? Unless your particular faith does not marry couples or use wedding rings?

Scripture doesn’t speak about the propriety of wearing pink t-shirts, but that is irrelevant to the role of Scripture in the life of the church and the life of the individual Christian.

 

[coachkfan1]

First let me say that I appreciate you answering so many questions! To follow up, you said yourself that many Pentecostal communities differ in beliefs and worship style. My question is, how do you know that your branch of Pentecostalism is the right one? Basically, you have said that Oneness is a form of heresy. So again, by what authority, other than just personal preference, do you decide that your congregation is right and that they are heretics? Because of your pastor or pastor you had growing up or what exactly? Thanks!

 

[ltwin]

Hi itwin,
I am wondering which pentacostal church do you currently attend? Is it AOG or some independent type?

My life is chaotic right now. I’m back and forth between my family’s home and graduate school. In Charleston, where I go to school, I haven’t really found a home church yet. There is an Episcopalian church that is right near me and has a contemporary service, so I’m thinking about just going there until I get the lay of the church land. (Most Episcopalians churches in SC are biblically grounded, so that’s good).

When I’m home, I attend the same church I grew up with. It is an independent Pentecostal church.

I’m glad to read that you have moved away from Name it/claim it/wealth/health type. What has made you move away or reject Kenneth Hagin word of faith?

I believe with all my heart that there are promises God has given us and recorded in Holy Scripture that we can stand on and appropriate by faith. However, too many people who have bought into prosperity theology go well beyond those biblical promises and tell people that basically anything they want they can have, often by making a tax deductible donation to an individual’s ministry. I’m just not buying what they are selling.

My parents and family believe prosperity theology to a degree: God is faithful, he will provide, and if you give to God and others generously you will be blessed. But my parents never condoned the extra-biblical doctrines or the shenanigans that went on in so many ministries.

I have always thought your posts are very well written and intelligent. thanks for starting this thread.

Thank you, and you’re welcome.

 

[Catholic4Christ]

Hello, Itwin. First, I would like to say that your answers thus far are very well-formed and informative. It is always refreshing to come across a Christian who understands their own faith so well and with such conviction.

I’ve got a few questions, just off the top of my head…

1. What are your thoughts on sacraments, sacramental theology, etc.? I would imagine that the Catholic or Orthodox views regarding the sacraments/mysteries are not a part of your personal faith, though I wonder if a Pentacostal would be open to the possibility that the sacraments as understood by Catholics are manifestations of the Holy Spirit’s work. Do you only consider Baptism and the Lord’s Supper to be ‘sacraments’, as many other Reformed groups do? Or does the general concept of sacraments not figure into your faith life?
2. Spinning off of the last question, what do you believe occurs at Baptism? Also, what are your thoughts on the Eucharist?
3. You’ve said that you don’t view one church as being superior to another, but for you personally, what is attractive about your church (and/or congregation) that other communities lack?
4. Naturally, the Bible and Scripture is important to your faith. Do you have thoughts on the Deuterocanon?
5. Just a personal question: What’s your favorite verse/passage from Scripture? And what’s your preferred English translation?

I’ll lay off for now! Thanks for making this thread!

 

[coachkfan1]

Also, (sorry) but do you believe that someone who does not have the gift of tongues is not saved?

 

[Steveabrous]

, and Oneness theology was gaining ground. The issue was decided in 1916, at the Fourth General Council of the Assemblies of God, where Oneness theology was rejected and Trinitarianism affirmed,

Did someone forget to tell the AOG’s that this issue was decided in the 4th century.

 

[ltwin]

Did someone forget to tell the AOG’s that this issue was decided in the 4th century.

No, they didn’t forget.

The fact that the historic undivided church had already dealt with this issue was brought up. The Oneness argument was that their doctrine was a new revelation. The Trinitarian argument was that this was not a new revelation but an old heresy.

 

[coachkfan1]

Did someone forget to tell the AOG’s that this issue was decided in the 4th century.

I immediately thought the same thing!

 

[coachkfan1]

No, they didn’t forget.

The fact that the historic undivided church had already dealt with this issue was brought up. The Oneness argument was that their doctrine was a new revelation. The Trinitarian argument was that this was not a new revelation but an old heresy.

But isn’t all of Protestantism based on “new revelation”?

 

[Steveabrous]

Let me start off by saying that there are things I appreciate about the Catholic Church. I do like the fact that Catholics have history and they know who they are. Pentecostals don’t appreciate their own history enough. Too much we focus on the “new thing” God is doing in our lives and in the church and not enough looking back to give God thanks for what he has done in history. I also appreciate that the Catholic Church has never fallen into the trap of believing in cessationism

That said the biggest problems are beliefs that don’t appear to be warranted in scripture: Apostolic Succession, the pope’s unique role, Mariology, prayers to the saints, purgatory. It’s claim that other churches are simply “ecclesial communities” and somehow less than the Catholic Church is something that troubles me as well.

Another thing I’m not comfortable with is something that I perceive from my very limited interaction with the Catholic Church (mainly discussions on this forum). This is the lack of correlation between the rites of Christian initiation and the experience of Christian conversion. From my Pentecostal heritage, the performance of any sacerdotal or ecclesiastical rites is useless unless their is a Christian experience that accompanies it.

I also believe that Catholic liturgical worship is too routinized and the authority structure is too top heavy. But that has more to do with my own Pentecostal background than it does with whether the Catholic Church is “correct” in all its beliefs.

hello TWIN. I am a former protestant and live in Springfield Mo. That’s right AOG headquarters. I have many good friends who are AOG. and most of them really are Holier then I. That said.

The problem with protestantism as a whole is that it relies soley on scripture. Scripture no where says it is the guardian of all truth. In fact it says the church is. And would that not be the original church. It also says to obey the teachings handed down either by letter or word of mouth. Scripture and tradition.

There are scriptural passages to back up all the beliefs you said were not scriptural:

Apostolic succession- the first thing the apostles did was name a successor to Judas.

The Popes unique role- Jesus gave Peter the keys to the kingdom and the power to bind and loose.

Mariology- She said all generation’s will call her blessed.

Prayers to the saints- Revelations talks about how the saints are involved in our prayer life.

Purgatory- Paul says a man’s work will be tested and if it fails the man will suffer lose. The man will be saved but only as through fire.

The problem is that if everything was in the bible then Luther would have been proven right and everyone would come to the same conclusion. But as you know, no one can agree on what the bible says. It just wasn’t meant to be a rule book, rather a testimony of faith.

That is why the pope and the bishops are necessary. That’s why Christ appointed them

that being said here are my questions for you:

1. Do you believe that speaking in tongues is required for salvation? Or gives you a better relationship with Jesus then someone who doesn’t? Because Paul said not all will speak in tongues, and that it is the least of the gifts.
2. of all the gifts of the holy spirit why is speaking in tongues the only one that has to be “taught” as many churches hold classes to teach people how to speak in tongues.

 

[landon13]

Yes. I pray and sing in tongues often. I do it a lot in the shower and while driving. I put on some Hillsong music and just start praying to God and it can be quite a journey in prayer.

I have faith in God’s promises. I received my prayer language at the time that I asked God to fill me with His Spirit. He did, and I began to pray in tongues. I believe in Christ’s promise of Luke 11:

“What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

I also believe what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14:

“For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.”

So, I have no reason that when I asked God years ago to fill me with His Holy Spirit so that I might be consecrated and empowered to fulfill His will and His purpose, plan, and destiny in my life that He would have given me a meaningless or, even worse, allowed a demonic gift into my life.

I also know that at times I have been burdened to pray. I did not know what to pray for, so I would pray in the Spirit. For example, just a couple days I was making a 3 hour drive and was burdened to pray in the Spirit. So I began and I felt the anointing and unction so strong while I prayed. I had no idea why I felt such an urgency to pray until I began to see a whole lot of police and ambulance lights ahead of me on the road. I passed right by what appeared to be a very bad car wreck.

Biblically, tongue praying wasn’t something you do whenever you want. You pray in tongues in scripture in order to be interpreted as a witness to God, not for your own personal experience and feeling. How do you know that it is an actual thing from God and not just a thing provided by the devil to make you believe it is from God? Or an invention of yourself wanting to pray in tongues? Just wondering. Not trying to be rude.

 

[ltwin]

How does the average Pentecostal deal with the supposed messages and prophecies given by someone who speaks in tounges?

We deal with them the same way Paul dealt with them in 1 Corinthians 14:

“the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation.”

Are they authentic messages from God and as binding as the Sacred Scriputes? If they are inspired by God, would one not have to accept them as such? Or is God just suggesting things to the community which they can accept or reject?

They are an immediate and present word for the congregation of “upbuilding and encouragement and consolation.” They don’t usually touch on doctrinal issues in any case.

God never contradicts himself. Therefore, any time the Holy Spirit speaks to the church or to an individual we know automatically that it will conform to what God has already spoken. If someone receives a word or an impression or is lead to do something, we know that if it is really from God it will line up with what we already know about God, which we find in Holy Scripture.

If an individual has concerns about an individual word or prophecy, then they can pray about it and seek guidance from spiritual authority, such as a pastor or other spiritual elder in their life. Everyone should use discernment. Nothing anyone says should just be accepted because they say it.

Who determines such, the individual, the congregation, the Pastor?

The pastor, as the shepherd of the congregation, has the ultimate authority for determining who is given leave to speak or what is being allowed to be said. If a pastor feels that something is contrary to Scripture or out of order, he will address it (or he should). That is on a corporate level.

On an individual level, we are all free moral agents. We will all stand before God and give account for our own lives. If something is said that is not of God, then no one—neither a church or a pastor—can make us accept it. If someone gets up in an assembly and states, “Thus saith the Lord, Jim Bob over there is Jesus Christ returned in the flesh,” then I am not going to wait for the pastor to decide for me if that is wrong. I know its wrong because I know what Scripture says about Christ. I don’t need the pastor to tell me that.